The official love topic for GTA-SA Shmup Trio!

[Turrican]

So, here's the deal... I don't know if this has been discussed before on the forum, as it's not really fresh news.

Anyway, I'm sure a consistent majority of you shmuppers has avoided GTA - San Andreas like plague. It's too obvious that for the stereotype hardcore otaku this western game sucks big: it's 3D, bad controls, bad framerate and, worst crime of all, it actually sells by millions and pleases the masses.

If that isn't enough, I can take out another group of people that have morality issues with the game, being filled with sex, violence, profanations of sorts, bad language and such.

However, for the two people that after reading "GTA" above continued to read, I'm here to share my passion for Los Santos' arcade games. They just rock!

Let's see what I found so far:

-They Crawled from Uranus-

A rather good Gyruss clone! it has warping, bonus points for clearing an enemy swarm, and weapon powerups. CJ even has an "arcade perfect" port of this classic at home in his cd-based console (at least it's shaped like acd-based system).

-Go Go Space Monkey-

This is the wacked Gradius fake. Space themed hori, only you're a space monkey. Successfully destroy an enemy line and you get a powerup (that floats on the screen in a very Project-X-esque fashion): these grant you rapid fire, spread shot and three way, after which you're basically invincible. The enemies become faster and faster, and sometimes avoid their bullets gets hard.

-Duality-

This has to be witnessed, I'm serious. This game is the most clever Ikaruga parody I've ever seen. It's basically an Asteroids clone, but you immediately realize from the title screen Rockstar is paying homage/laughing at Ikaruga. The screen is filled by big and small types of spheres, that can be either black or white. Big Black spheres will act as black holes, or planets if you want, attracting your ship with gravity and damaging you by contact. Big White spheres, just the opposite, will repel you. You can however destroy these Big spheres with your shot. The small spheres instead are "bonus pills" to pick up that replenish your fuel.

The best part is that Duality comes with two separate hiscores charts, a "white" one and a "black" one. Picking up white pills will increase your white score while lowering your black score and viceversa. So going for a white highscore means you'll have to avoid black pills and try not shooting the Big White spheres (you'd suffer from a penalty for shooting white), while destroying Big black ones.

Going for a black score is harder, since you'll be penalized for destroying Big Black spheres, and those are the only element on screen that damages your ship. However, each time you shoot your white score decreases by one, while shooting doesn't affect black score. So you won't have to worry for shooting too much.

If the whole thing seems intricate, boring and pretty far from the standard shmup blast-o-rama action... Well, that's a proof that DMA captured Ikaruga's spirit quite well, imho

I tried to sum Duality the best I could, but you can find even a FAQ for it on GameFAQs' GTA:SA page.

-Honey Bee-

Not a shmup, but still a lovely game in which you control a bee that must collect flowers and avoid thorns... Very cute! ^_^

Oh, I almost forgot: all these games can be played by both analog stick or digital pad. Very nice from Rockstar to implement that, although controls for Uranus and Space Monkey are a bit questionable... I wouldn't exclude however that too was made on purpose. But even if you don't like the execution, you'd have to appreciate the irony.

And, each of these games even save your highscore. Incredible, a GTA minigame is given options that many standalone shmups out there (see Gunbird SE or Strikers PS2 PAL) lack!

Excellent job, Rockstar! In the next GTA I want to find a commodore amiga inside a house, to play Menace and Blood Money!

P.S. To have a taste of Rockstar's incredible sense of humour without having to buy the game, have a look at these sites:

www.degenatron.com
www.exsorbeo.com

[magnum opus]

thats awesome.

[BulletMagnet]

The best part is that Duality comes with two separate hiscores charts, a "white" one and a "black" one. Picking up white pills will increase your white score while lowering your black score and viceversa.

That aspect of it almost sounds like Night Raid.

[Shearie]

Your viewpoint is completely skewed compared to mine. Not only are those arcade games not a highpoint of San Andreas but they are not good games to begin with. Granted the whole point of GTA games is putting a bunch of minigames together in one big interactive city even though most are bad stand-alone games but I would rather mindlessly explore the city than play more then five minutes of those arcade games.

Me = Shmup fan who loves GTA

[Zhon]

Shmuppers don't necessarily like or dislike mainstream games.

[captain ahar]

i really like GTA, even though i've never beat one. i wasn't able to find some of these, in my brother's 100% complete game. that Space Monkey thing sounds interesting.

personal aside: i think the Warriors is going to turn out being really underwhelming

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

I like Rockstars style, and I enjoy many of their games. Personally, I really didn't care much for the arcade games in San Andrea's, but, I thought it was cool that they added the extra interactions with such.

Shmups are great, but I enjoy video games period, regardless of genre.

[Turrican]

Your viewpoint is completely skewed compared to mine. Not only are those arcade games not a highpoint of San Andreas but they are not good games to begin with.

Did I sound like those three games were the highpoint of GTA:SA? If so, I do apologize, that was not what I meant. They are a very molecular fraction of the game, and I enjoy it for the all the rest.

About them being good on their own... well, It's not that simple. They could't be sold separately for money, that's granted. And even in a "fictional retrocollection" they would show some imperfections. As I said, at least Go Go and Uranus aren't the smoothest in terms of control.

I think however their value is greater than the sum of their parts alone. They are quite cool because they show some grasp of the recent gaming history.

Take for example the Degenatron page. I quote from there:

"Smash the green dots deep inside the mysterious red square!" I never thought a joystick was the right controller for this game, but then what do I know? It sure sold well enough."

This brief description is for a fake Tempest made with Atari2600ish graphics. Notice how the issue with joystick stay true to the gripes most fans have with Tempest home ports. When I read things like these, I sense heart and care behind small details.

Degenatron site was made for Vice City, which is fictional Eighties. So it's very appropriate for San Andreas (fictional 1992) to have the Exsorbeo, an hilarious parody of the Gameboy.

You might say I'm talking about else and not those games in specific, but that's exactly the point. They are so nice because their part of a bigger picture. I think noone seriously could demand from them much more. Their interest and main purpose in San Andreas, much like many radio adverts, is satyrical.

@everyone: Ok, guys, that was a provocation you know. It's not like I imagine all of you like a bunch of close-minded integralists that only play shmups! I'm actually happy that I've been "proven wrong", I expected that to be.

[Turrican]

i really like GTA, even though i've never beat one. i wasn't able to find some of these, in my brother's 100% complete game. that Space Monkey thing sounds interesting.

Yeah, you can find it at the Alhambra Disco, near the station when you meet Cesar Vialpando the first time.

Also, on the Degenatron page there is this game:

MONKEY'S PARADISE

"Swing from green dot to green dot with your red square monkey!" Widely regarded as the inspiration for the current craze of monkey games. Sadly missing the underwater level from the arcade machine.

This means, Go Go Space Monkey is sorta like a "sequel" in this fictional monkey franchise. I expect to see other "monkey" games in the next GTA games.

[Shearie]

Sorry Turrican, I misread the part where you said "It's too obvious that for the stereotype hardcore otaku this western game sucks big..." and for some reason I completely skipped over the "stereotype hardcore otaku" part.

I definitely understand your point about the games being apart of the "GTA world" but it still would have been nice if they were at least halfway decent but that's a moot point anyway since SA is fantastic as a whole.

[raiden]

ok, if no one else does, I´m going to criticize the GTA games as a whole. Their concept is not to challenge people, but to keep them busy for as long as possible, to reward them not for skill, but for patience to walk every inch of these virtual worlds, to stay indoors in real life. The satire about old games isn´t just there to be funny, but to fake history with deliberately bad games, in order to convince people of GTA´s superiority. Of course, they are also there to make the illusion appear more real: if you are someone who plays videogames in real life, and there´s a game mimicing real life in which you play videogames, the outer game seems more real through that trick.
GTA games are like TV, a device to hypnotize the masses, keeping them passive like sheep with a false sense of activity. Of course, you can say the same thing about every videogame, but challenging games like shmups don´t offer a refuge to people fleeing from life´s challenges.

[Shearie]

You're looking into this way too much conspiracy theorist.

[raiden]

I´m not saying anybody conspired to achieve the described effect, I´m just describing it.

[Turrican]

ok, if no one else does, I´m going to criticize the GTA games as a whole.

Yeah, when I read "criticize" I expected something more like constructive criticiscm from you, raiden. This is pretty much bashing.

Their concept is not to challenge people, but to keep them busy for as long as possible, to reward them not for skill, but for patience to walk every inch of these virtual worlds, to stay indoors in real life.

So, it's a series not based on challenge or skill, right? I don't see the least problem in this. I don't think Jrpgs were really challenging either, and at least GTA remove the hassle to "level up". SotN was a cakewalk compared to previous Castlevanias, and the most intriguing part was to explore the castle in every inch. I recently played MGS3 and that too, sadly was set to a normal difficulty too easy.

So, either this is a problem the entire industry is dealing with, or a GTA crime. Oh, of course I was forgetting shmups, the true herald of "challenge" in this corrupt world. I guess that's why with manicness they just aim to a niche audience.

The satire about old games isn´t just there to be funny, but to fake history with deliberately bad games, in order to convince people of GTA´s superiority.

1. These little games are not bad. I actually enjoy them.
2. Indeed, you're on the conspiracy theory here.
3. DMA's first game is a hori shmup. They created Lemmings and Walker. I can't see them being racist towards classic gaming. These minigames are an act of love.

Of course, they are also there to make the illusion appear more real: if you are someone who plays videogames in real life, and there´s a game mimicing real life in which you play videogames, the outer game seems more real through that trick.

You're right, and they achieved that perfectly.

GTA games are like TV, a device to hypnotize the masses, keeping them passive like sheep with a false sense of activity. Of course, you can say the same thing about every videogame, but challenging games like shmups don´t offer a refuge to people fleeing from life´s challenges.

"Stupid spineless masses have not enough guts to play anything else than GTA. They are getting brainstormed by 1984's Big Brother and GTA like TV is just one of its brainstorming tools.
Luckily I'm among the elite, not the masses, so I can perform a no miss play at Ikaruga."

Is that what you wanted to say?

[Marc]

Sorry Turrican, I misread the part where you said "It's too obvious that for the stereotype hardcore otaku this western game sucks big..." and for some reason I completely skipped over the "stereotype hardcore otaku" part.

Come on, we all know at least one asshole like that don't we?

So, it's a series not based on challenge or skill, right? I don't see the least problem in this. I don't think Jrpgs were really challenging either, and at least GTA remove the hassle to "level up". SotN was a cakewalk compared to previous Castlevanias, and the most intriguing part was to explore the castle in every inch. I recently played MGS3 and that too, sadly was set to a normal difficulty too easy.

So, either this is a problem the entire industry is dealing with, or a GTA crime. Oh, of course I was forgetting shmups, the true herald of "challenge" in this corrupt world. I guess that's why with manicness they just aim to a niche audience.

An excellent point, and well made. Not that I didn't love the game, but is anyone really gonna argue that Final Fintasy rewarded 'skill' as such? Nope, that too required patience. It's no crime, just a different type of experience. Sometimes I wanna be tested, I want the adrenaline rush and the teeth marks in the controller. Sometimes, I just wann play something that, yeah, 'hypnotises' me I suppose, something that lets me switch off and unwind a little. GTA's a big enough game as it is, hiking up the difficulty until missions had to be constantly repeated would mean that most people just wouldn't see the end of it?

[CMoon]

If I have any problem with this thread, it is the title. You really just have to guess what it is about, but worse, none of those games are 'awesome' by any stretch of the imagination. ???

[Turrican]

You're right, but I wanted to avoid the word GTA in the title. I was afraif it would have attracted gta haters / trolling, when I really wanted to focus on "They crawled from Uranus" and company ^_^


Now that the surprise effect is achieved, title is changed accordingly.

An excellent point, and well made. Not that I didn't love the game, but is anyone really gonna argue that Final Fintasy rewarded 'skill' as such? Nope, that too required patience. It's no crime, just a different type of experience. Sometimes I wanna be tested, I want the adrenaline rush and the teeth marks in the controller. Sometimes, I just wann play something that, yeah, 'hypnotises' me I suppose, something that lets me switch off and unwind a little.

Exactly. It's 2005 guys. I think it's fair to accept games that are not focused on challenge. I don't think ICO posed me a challenge at all, but I love it.

And hey, luckily we'll ever have shmups for challenge

[FatCobra]

I love shmups for the challenge, the old school gameplay, the chance to improve my hi-score, and the replay value. But sometimes I don't feel like shmupping all the time, and when I don't, I like to unwind with a good RPG or some other easy going game, as long I don't have to blow $50 to acquire such non-shmup. While GTA games show what's wrong with the industry, they are also good for causing mayhem and random chaos. I got rid of my copy of San Andreas, as it started to bore me to death. Nothing wrong with easy games, it's just I feel ripped off when I spend that much money on a game and I blow thru it in two days of non-stop playing.

[Shatterhand]

I havent played SA, I only played Vice City.

And I dunno, I found some missions challenging in this game. Not "Radiant Silvergun challenging" , but challenging enough.

And in GTA Vice City, at least in the PC version, the game starts with a Commodore 64 screen, and someone typing - Load"Gta",8,1 , and then a C64 alike DMA Design logo shows up.

I found that to be brilliant, and pretty much shows how much these guys have some respect to classic gaming.


I don't hate the GTA games. I remember when I first played a demo of the 1st GTA, I found it to be one of the coolest things I had ever played. Same happened when I got Vice City, I had lots of fun with it.

The problem with those games, IMO, is that they are too long, and because they don't actually offer ALL that much (They SEEM to offer a lot, but they don't deliver all that much), they end up getting too boring too soon. I never had the patience to finish any of the GTA games. (Vice City was the one that I got closer to finish).

I always find funny how, say, Pacman which is basically one stage of you doing the same thing over and over and over rarely ever gets boring, while a "Super game" that, in theory, offers dozens of different stuff to do, manages to get boring so fast.

[FatCobra]

I always find funny how, say, Pacman which is basically one stage of you doing the same thing over and over and over rarely ever gets boring, while a "Super game" that, in theory, offers dozens of different stuff to do, manages to get boring so fast.

That's the problem with open-ended gameplay; the environment seems to have no personality, at least not the kind you get with games that have well-designed levels and carefully crafted bosses.

[LoneSage]

GTA3's great, loved it years ago. Vice City was so shite; I honestly have never been so appalled by the laziness on a respectable developer's behalf. Freezing, frame rate slippage, my memory card being wiped..ridiculous. Only thing that saves it is the music.

I recently played GTA3 again and was sad to find it boring Guess I've change a lot over the years.

[Turrican]

gh.And in GTA Vice City, at least in the PC version, the game starts with a Commodore 64 screen, and someone typing - Load"Gta",8,1 , and then a C64 alike DMA Design logo shows up.

I found that to be brilliant, and pretty much shows how much these guys have some respect to classic gaming.

There's something similar in San Andreas. The icon where you can save the game is a lovely 3.5 floppy disc. It gave me a weird effect, like I was playing an amiga game on PS2.

[raiden]

So, it's a series not based on challenge or skill, right? I don't see the least problem in this. I don't think Jrpgs were really challenging either, and at least GTA remove the hassle to "level up". SotN was a cakewalk compared to previous Castlevanias, and the most intriguing part was to explore the castle in every inch. I recently played MGS3 and that too, sadly was set to a normal difficulty too easy.
So, either this is a problem the entire industry is dealing with, or a GTA crime. Oh, of course I was forgetting shmups, the true herald of "challenge" in this corrupt world. I guess that's why with manicness they just aim to a niche audience.

Of course, it´s a problem with the entire industry. To make it GTA specific, even for a game that tries to entertain people in a passive way, it does that on a substandard level. Controls on foot are horrible, and that´s the only way missions can get challenging - when you are struggling to make the character do what you want him to do.
When a game focusses on exploration, the least you should expect is a world detailed enough to make exploration interesting. But similar to Morrowind, the GTA games just stumble over their own ambition there. Everything has just enough details to look convincing while you drive past it, once you get out of the car, you notice how plain and boring everything looks. But then the games want you to get out of the car to collect packages, and you don´t even have a walkman to hear the music during that time, the music which makes driving around at least bearable.

People buy GTA because they don´t want to buy 10 different games, so they buy one game that seems to have everything in it, even if "everything" is done in bad quality.

Oh, and btw. I loved the C64 intro for Vice City, too, but no matter how spirited the developers may be, that doesn´t make their games better.

[Neon]

I'm not heavily anti-mainstream, some of my favourite games (Sega Rally, Street Fighter series, even Ikaruga to an extent) are mainstream, my favourite band is Parliament Funkadelic. In fact, Anti-flag, NOFX, et al suck ass. Only reason people listen to them is the image, it sure as hell can't be the music. Exactly the same reason as the mainstream they claim to hate.

Going to have to agree with raiden though, the only way I can have fun with the GTA brothers is using a weapon cheat and trying to destroy as much as possible, even then the entertainment value for that only lasts so long. And there's no music playing when outside of a car, which is pretty weak. There are a couple of good songs on the soundtrack for each, and music > no music in that case, so yeah. They could've been better.

I think it's important not to overemphasize the quality of mainstream games just to prove how open-minded you are, no offense meant. Everyone went ga-ga over Metroid Prime and Ico, I really don't see the appeal. They're boring, same with Metal Gear, Sonic Adventure, Xenosaga et al with their constant cutscenes, etc.

[Turrican]

Of course, it´s a problem with the entire industry.

You're missing the point raiden. It is not a problem at all. Games don't have to be focused on challenge.

People buy GTA because they don´t want to buy 10 different games, so they buy one game that seems to have everything in it, even if "everything" is done in bad quality.

I really doubt this to be a correct analysis. I think GTA has a specific appeal, about crime, music and stealing cars. I don't think millions of gamers buy it just to save money they'd spend on Jimmy White Cueball, Paperboy, Playboy Mansion, Destruction Derby and such. Although I must say, some of GTA's takes on these concepts aren't really flawed as you say.

Oh, and btw. I loved the C64 intro for Vice City, too, but no matter how spirited the developers may be, that doesn´t make their games better.

On the contrary. I'm full of games "perfect" in every way, except that they are the millionth episode of a saga. Before releasing CV Loi, Iga in an interview said that he was focusing to run the game at 60hz... this is the typical "perfection" a mediocre wants. In the end I got a rather boring game that moved silk smooth.
Prince of Persia had severe framerate issues and was a lot more fun.

With Rockstar's humour is the same. Quit appreciate the usual things ("Oh, this scrolling is so superb!") and start enjoying a clever script and irreverent gags. In other words, Cinderella might be better animated, but I'll still go for the Simpsons thanks.

I think it's important not to overemphasize the quality of mainstream games just to prove how open-minded you are, no offense meant. Everyone went ga-ga over Metroid Prime and Ico, I really don't see the appeal. They're boring, same with Metal Gear, Sonic Adventure, Xenosaga et al with their constant cutscenes, etc.

No offense taken, but I don't believe this to be the case. Besides: are you serious writing Metroid Prime, Ico and Metal Gear being mainstream? ICO sold near nothing and was appreciated by a very limited amount of game amateurs (so, they're hardcore, in a sense). Metroid and Metal Gear are old series that while they captured some spotlights recently, are quite focused on their fanbase.

I thought mainstream was EA Fifa soccer, LOTR games, Star Wars spin offs, dozens of pc-like FPS...

[raiden]

You're missing the point raiden. It is not a problem at all. Games don't have to be focused on challenge.

I´ve heard this sentence pretty often, but if games aren´t focused on challenge, they aren´t focused on interaction, and if they aren´t focused on interaction, they´re forgetting what they are and trying to be something else, like a book or a film. Problem is, in this they fail even more. You might say that Game X has a very good story "for a videogame", but compared to a really good film or book story, it will still suck.

I really doubt this to be a correct analysis. I think GTA has a specific appeal, about crime, music and stealing cars.

As stealing cars is just one part of crime, only crime and music remain. Music, you could have without playing the game just as well. You can do other things while listening to music, if you have any idea on what to do with your life. Now, what´s so popular about crime? People don´t like the rules of society, they see crime as a kind of freedom, but it isn´t. Being a criminal can give you lots of money, but money only makes sense in a society, so it doesn´t free you at all, really. People are fascinated with crime because they are sick of their everyday life, but just like crime doesn´t free them, the GTA games don´t either. It´s just supposed to replace something else, something people lost all hope of ever achieving.

I'm full of games "perfect" in every way, except that they are the millionth episode of a saga.

what exactly are you arguing here? The GTA games ARE episodes of a saga. And what´s wrong with perfection, suddenly? Is this you realizing GTA games simply lack quality, but not wanting to admit that?

and start enjoying a clever script and irreverent gags

the best gags and most clever scripts are still possible when there is no player interfering.

[Turrican]

You're missing the point raiden. It is not a problem at all. Games don't have to be focused on challenge.

I´ve heard this sentence pretty often, but if games aren´t focused on challenge, they aren´t focused on interaction, and if they aren´t focused on interaction, they´re forgetting what they are and trying to be something else, like a book or a film. Problem is, in this they fail even more. You might say that Game X has a very good story "for a videogame", but compared to a really good film or book story, it will still suck.

[...]

the best gags and most clever scripts are still possible when there is no player interfering.

Huh, man... So films and books are not interactive to you. You see a Chaplin, a Kurosawa, a Bergman and you're not stimulated in any way, it's just "passive".

And then you say, there is no interaction when there is no challenge. Basically, the only form of interaction you conceive is something "physical" and "challenging". Do you "challenge" with your girlfriend?

I guess we're miles distant. I feel myself more "interactive" when I watch a Kojima cutscene, than when I rub my joystick to play Track & Field.

About a good story... I have to disagree on that one too. Ico and Another World tell good stories making a very good use of their medium. Sons of Liberty tells a kind of story that is not possible with movies and such. Besides, recently the hollywood movie quality is decreased a lot, and I really don't think it's necessary a good game to surpass crap like Arthur, Troy, or LOTR. Probably Suikoden II or Final Fight are already better than those.

[Turrican]

As stealing cars is just one part of crime, only crime and music remain. Music, you could have without playing the game just as well. You can do other things while listening to music, if you have any idea on what to do with your life. Now, what´s so popular about crime? People don´t like the rules of society, they see crime as a kind of freedom, but it isn´t. Being a criminal can give you lots of money, but money only makes sense in a society, so it doesn´t free you at all, really. People are fascinated with crime because they are sick of their everyday life, but just like crime doesn´t free them, the GTA games don´t either. It´s just supposed to replace something else, something people lost all hope of ever achieving.

What's the matter YOU have with crime?

Why are you searching for a great goal in GTA that would raise the human spirit?

here you go:

raiden wrote:

"Now, what´s so popular about bombs? People don´t like the rules of society, they see shmup blastation as a kind of freedom, but it isn´t. Being a WWII airplane pilot can give you lots of money, but money only makes sense in a society, so it doesn´t free you at all, really. People are fascinated with shooting down things because they are sick of their everyday life, but just like weaponfire doesn´t free them, the Strikers 1945 games don´t either. It´s just supposed to replace something else, something people lost all hope of ever achieving."

Maybe you are asking too much to poor Strik.. err GTA. Indeed, GTA is not the second coming and doesn't free humanity from his chains of enslavement. Must be a pile of crap if it doesn't even do that.

[Turrican]

what exactly are you arguing here? The GTA games ARE episodes of a saga. And what´s wrong with perfection, suddenly? Is this you realizing GTA games simply lack quality, but not wanting to admit that?

Because I am not here in defense of the GTA saga. I merely find the concept quite striking and well done, but it's not that I will buy every shit sequel they'll release.

And I have no problem to admit the engine is rushed, the controls might be refined and so on -- in fact, I wrote that in my first post, man. I'm just saying there's a lot more to enjoy in this game if only one doesn't stop to that superficial level.

But I guess you would call it non-interactive enjoyment.

[Shatterhand]

I don't think a plot is necessary to a game to be good, and it should NEVER be the main point of a game..

But it can add a lot to a good game.

Now, Another World, that was said by Turrican... that's another field. This game is not just about "Telling a good history"

I think a lot of game designers today could learn a LOT of what kind of interactivity a game should have with Another World

This game is one of the most brilliant things to ever come from the gaming industry.

And it's not a challenging game at all