Annual Top 10 of the Less Experienced - Results Thread

[The Coop]

Yes, "game quality" is too abstract to measure. As close as you can get is to measure "how well liked" a game is.

Sorry, but that's just plain bullshit. Quality is, to at least some extent, independent of the observer. E.G. even if you don't like Super Mario Bros 3, it is clearly a higher quality game than NES Athena.

That doesn't mean much if you still find both games to be equally shitty for different reasons. I mean, you'd think it's a given that Super Mario Galaxy looks and plays better than Sword of Sodan, but I bet you'll find people who say otherwise.

[Ed Oscuro]

tl;dr - What's so damned hard about just accepting some poll results? If you think they make you look bad, have your whine and move on, that's all you can do. Everybody's free to like shit games if they so desire. I should know, I like Air Duel and nobody will stop me :)

The problem is not differentiating between pure shit games and legendary titles. The problem is in sorting out games that have very different gameplay styles that are equally well-liked by their respective fans.*

This suggests to me that if people really want to see a best list, they should create a list of the best shmups within a particular genre, i.e. bullet hell shooter, vs. traditional horizontal, etc.

That would give people some discussion points and serve the purpose of letting people find new things/remind them of what they've forgotten (which is always one of the high points of these threads for me).

The usual "every game in the genre and more" nature of a regular poll covering all the genres (like this one) serves the purpose of showing what the preferred shmups are at this Forum, and from that you can extrapolate what the favorite style of shooting game is, but not much else.

It's a little embarrassing that people are coming right out to say "I don't understand the games you like and so they shouldn't be on the list," but not everybody writes that seriously (or takes it that way) ;)

*For instance, in my limited experience I haven't seen anything that indicates that Dragon Blaze's shot pattern gameplay is markedly better or worse constructed than Vasara's - there's differences in the art quality, but let's ignore that); they're totally different styles (and while DB is a great example of its type of shooting game, Vasara is filling a niche not widely represented. Taking the argument from another direction, some might contend that Battle Garegga is over-engineered, but again that's an opinion and many people have been happy enough to deal with its legendary crazy rank system. If it does what it says on the tin and enough people love it for that, what's the problem?

[Rob]

"I don't understand the games you like and so they shouldn't be on the list,"

I don't think there's a post in this thread remotely similar to this statement. I, for one, understand every game.

[jp]

I think what Rob was getting at is that it was kind of lame that 3 similar Cave titles were in the top 10.

[jpj]

What's so damned hard about just accepting some poll results? If you think they make you look bad, have your whine and move on, that's all you can do.

It's a little embarrassing that people are coming right out to say "I don't understand the games you like and so they shouldn't be on the list,"

indeed. you can comment on the list, if it's really important to you. if you absolutely positively must have a whinge about cave/ddp/chaining for the billionth time. and people can say you're wrong, your arguments are poor, and your 'comments' amount to "shit talk".

i didn't get the hankie comment.

and no, i don't think you understand the appeal of cave/treasure/enemy chaining whatsoever.

[spadgy]

i didn't get the hankie comment.

.Me neither. I didn't get the 'lists are for commenting thread' comment, (as in the context of 'lists)' but I'm 'duh'....

Did you mean threads like this one? If so of course you're right, but in general I was just defending unsane's efforts really by saying his top-10 was worth it and has a place, and people should stop bemoaning the results. Not that I'm suggesting you did that...

[cody]

All op-p-pinions are s-s-subjective, Cody.

Quality is not (entirely) a matter of opinion. Fun, sure; looks, sure; quality, no.

[Rob]

and no, i don't think you understand the appeal of cave/treasure/enemy chaining whatsoever.

I know how to do it and I understand that it sucks. I didn't say "understand the appeal."

Not that I'm suggesting you did that...

Look, I really don't care what anyone likes or doesn't. Really, I'm just commenting on a list. Like I appreciate it when people do in the list threads I make. I don't care if you voted for 10 Cave games. Really.

[spadgy]

Look, I really don't care what anyone likes or doesn't. Really, I'm just commenting on a list.

Sorry! Was just asking a question...

I'm bailing from this one as it's just getting a little to highly-strung (for which I'm partly to blame!)

[God]

Yes, "game quality" is too abstract to measure.

Quality is, to at least some extent, independent of the observer.

To some extent it is but not enough to measure.

Otherwise we wouldn't need human opinion to make these lists, we could just measure it like temperature or weight.

they should create a list of the best shmups within a particular genre, i.e. bullet hell shooter, vs. traditional horizontal, etc

I think that might be a good idea.

[Rob]

(for which I'm partly to blame!)

Yeah, stir the pot and then leave.

By the way, no one said unsane's efforts were worth it or not, but I do think this list would have more purpose if he only allowed votes from inexperienced (or maybe newly registered?) players. Having lists from totally different pool of voters would be interesting. This one looks like the top 25 with a little less experience and more Mushihimesama.

[cody]

There are plenty of ways of measuring quality, people on the boards just don't seem particularly interested in them.

[Rob]

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=18866

[cody]

That thread lasted all of 1 post before degenerating. . .

[Twiddle]

Cody you might want to ponder why you are roker's favorite poster

ps that was derailed by your fellow sony console warrior buddy ceph

[Ed Oscuro]

That thread lasted all of 1 post before degenerating. . .

Did you notice that the thread was supposed to be help for "splitting the thought process" as opposed to objectively measuring quality? Ceph's comment (as it appears now) is right on the mark in that thread.

p.s. Rob, you have many good points and I tend to agree with them - but the one thing I don't understand is whether there was any indication that this poll was going to end up like it did (nevermind it was clearly shown that the poll had irregularities in the pool by design). You certainly didn't seem to think so at the time it was announced:

I like this one for its smaller lists and no point stacking. Will be interesting to compare.

I guess you're trying to make up for having failed us all earlier, eh?

[cody]

Did you notice that the thread was supposed to be help for "splitting the thought process" as opposed to objectively measuring quality?

Doesn't really matter what the thread was supposed to be, because there was 0 legitimate interest in it.

ps that was derailed by your fellow sony console warrior buddy ceph

If people post up blatantly false stuff about sega, microsoft, or nintendo consoles, I'll correct them too. Sorry your ass still hurts from being wrong a whole year ago or whatever it was.

[Ed Oscuro]

Doesn't really matter what the thread was supposed to be, because there was 0 legitimate interest in it.

Then why bring it up?

[Rob]

the one thing I don't understand is whether there was any indication that this poll was going to end up like it did

I was saying I liked the simplicity of the voting since picking more than 10 feels like a chore. But maybe that's a good idea after all? That and/or the different people voting killed a few games, like Thunder Force 3 (12 -> 60). While most of it is pretty much the same, not helped by people voting in the top 25 and voting here too (guilty).

If I hadn't voted and if I got this right:

-the only Psikyo game in the top 25 would be Strikers II at about 18th
-Mars Matrix would drop around 40th and Einhänder 60th (strange)

Take away other "experienced" votes and Psikyo would be off the chart. That's different!

[Ed Oscuro]

Take away other "experienced" votes and Psikyo would be off the chart. That's different!

That partly would've been my doing because I was on a Toaplan kick at the time. I usually am.

I would have put at least one of the Strikers 1945 games in a top 25, but none of these games are in my personal top ten so far - they simply haven't grabbed me.

On the other hand, that would've increased the amount of time the organizer would've had to spend sorting 25 entries from every participant, instead of 10.

[moozooh]

Quality is not (entirely) a matter of opinion.

But it entirely is. To measure something, you must first devise a point of reference, something you will measure against. For a thing as intangible as "quality" (in the sense of superiority, not just a distinctive characteristic) — especially in relation to forms of art any game is comprised of (graphic art, design, music), — and some fun value from playing it as a game concept, this is exactly where all the supposed objectivity will fail miserably, since you will have to rely on opinion(s) to generate criteria. In the best case it will just be a limited sampling of opinions, and nothing more. Games are a personal experience in the first place — or better yet, a sum of personal experiences — and there's no point in even trying to say there is some "objective quality" independent from an observer (which makes me wonder, who else other than the said observer would actually measure it, making it inherently dependent). If a game is said to be of high quality, it merely means it just either did appeal to most of its audience, or appealed stronger to a certain part of it, or both. And making something appeal to an audience is subject to numerous studies and careful manipulation, and, again, entirely depends on the audience.

Saying you can appraise the "true quality", meaning you have a taste in games that you think are superior due to some immeasurable and in most cases even ineffable property, puts you in a position of superiority in regards to other players' experience, which is something that's used by elitists for the most part, and is effectively a nonargument.

[unsane]

If I hadn't voted and if I got this right:

-the only Psikyo game in the top 25 would be Strikers II at about 18th

I hadn't expected that a few experienced voters could taint the results so much, but you're right. Goes to show that the sample size in this poll is way too small, if just one person's vote can move a game from 12th to 18th. So probably only the top 5 or so could be considered at all valid.

[moozooh]

"A few"? It appears to me that 1/3 to 2/3 of the sample were experienced players.

[unsane]

"A few"? It appears to me that 1/3 to 2/3 of the sample were experienced players.

My point was that even just 1 player affects results a lot and therefore only the top 5 or so are meaningful in any sense.

As for the experienced players, why don't we all just wait and see who votes in the Top 25? When we have an official count then we can make our judgments.

[spadgy]

(for which I'm partly to blame!)

Yeah, stir the pot and then leave.

How can I resist responding to that! I promise I wasn't trying to stir any pot. My reputation here as a pathetically insistent fence sitter should prove that! I'm far too much of a pussy! I just meant I'd got involved in a debate that was a bit more ferocious than I was interested in.

So sorry if I pot-stirred. Not intended. Not actually sure how I did it.

Anyway Rob - you comments on the voting pool size are certainly reasonable. In fact it's a bloody good point well made, and it's an idea I hadn't thought of...

I'm just gonna go again and wet myself in the corner worrying...

[God]

As for the experienced players, why don't we all just wait and see who votes in the Top 25? When we have an official count then we can make our judgments.

Could use last year's 25 for a rough idea.

[Twiddle]

ps that was derailed by your fellow sony console warrior buddy ceph

If people post up blatantly false stuff about sega, microsoft, or nintendo consoles, I'll correct them too. Sorry your ass still hurts from being wrong a whole year ago or whatever it was.

you have done none of the sort when said things have happened actually

you might want to try wiping the internet foam off your mouth there are gaming platforms other than sony and if people make a judgement of quality using a statistically signficant sample of opinions it is not the end of the world, just breathe deep

ps, i wasn't wrong. sony just got their act together a few months following that.

[unsane]

As for the experienced players, why don't we all just wait and see who votes in the Top 25? When we have an official count then we can make our judgments.

Could use last year's 25 for a rough idea.

That's just it, i disagree. Last year's Top 25 occurred in an environment where the less experienced had no other options, and therefore might have been tempted to bend the rules a little and post in the experienced Top 25. This year perhaps it'll be a little different. We'll see.

[Ed Oscuro]

So, is this supposed to be the garbage bin of shmups fandom? :(

"Let them have their own less experienced top games thread, this spirit is simply an excess of revolutionary steam to be vented off" lolz

[Twiddle]

experience is a bad term to use because i don't consider myself experienced yet i have a few tuff scorez under my belt and that one qualitality site or something says he's been playing shooters hardcore for a number of years but can't get past level 2 of dodonpachi on the first credit