Annual Top 10 of the Less Experienced - Results Thread

[JoshF]

You'd think Thunder Force IV was great until you discover infinite milking a minute into the first level.

[jp]

You'd think Thunder Force IV was great until you discover infinite milking a minute into the first level.

You'd think that was a problem until you realized no one really plays Thunder Force IV for score.

[Ed Oscuro]

There is no score.

You can't have milking without score.

This is a conspiracy of the dairy farmers.

[markedkiller78]

5 of mine are in the Top 10. I’m happy with that

What’s all this shit talk about games being redundant because they are by the same developer though?

If this were a top 2d fighters poll would that mean only one game from the entire Street Fighter series is worthy of a spot in the top 10? Or KOF for that matter?

Just because you can’t see the difference between a selection of games by the same developer doesn’t mean that it’s not there. By the same argument you should just have a Top 1 as all the games are essentially the same. It’s just a ship shooting at stuff.

It’s nice to see that same old shit comes up in the Less Experienced thread as every othr thread.

[charlie chong]

i think having dodonpachi and d.o.j in the same top ten is perfectly valid
i like dodonpachi so much because its the perfect difficulty for me at this moment in time... i like d.o.j so much because it gives me something to aspire to in the future and feels almost too hard to handle (i have got to the 5th level once but my score is lower than my dodonpachi score )

mushimesama has no place being in a top ten of any kind (lolz dont flamez me it's just my opinion)

[Rob]

If this were a top 2d fighters poll would that mean only one game from the entire Street Fighter series is worthy of a spot in the top 10? Or KOF for that matter?

This isn't the fighting game genre.

[jpj]

he didn't say that it was. why not just give an honest answer to a straight-forward question? and why do you care what other people vote for?

[Rob]

See, this isn't the fighting game genre. And DDP isn't Street Fighter. Cave isn't Capcom.

and why do you care what other people vote for?

What gave you that idea?

[MX7]

I think there is an issue of a problem of differentiation for both fighters and shooters outside of people who are interested in the genres.

[Rob]

Shooters have a longer history, more variety (if you don't exclude everything that isn't auto-scrolling and vertical), more notable developers. The notable series have much fewer entries and revisions.

DOJ makes DDP obsolete. Though people can rock on with crappier patterns and buttrock if they wanna.

And I guess the real top 25 is gone, huh? That sucks.

[jpj]

What gave you that idea?

Yikes.

...

As a person's top 10 list it would be OK because I don't expect people to play anything but their favorite one or two types of game, but as a collective and representation of the genre as a whole it is bordering on poor. Not as bad as lists from clueless sites, but still pretty bad.

...

DDP, DOJ, ESPGaluda, Mushi <-- three of these are redundant, pick them.

...

2 Raizing, 3 Treasure, 4 Cave and 1 proto-Cave game. Cue "perfect!"

...

Neither should be in a good (well-rounded) top 10.

...

Cave that belongs in a top 10: a Dodonpachi

...

As an amateur's top 10 it's perfect.

...

I can say they voted for a dud

...

etc

[Rob]

Yeah, maybe you're taking my offhanded comments too seriously. I'm commenting on the list, not yours.

[BulletMagnet]

And I guess the real top 25 is gone, huh? That sucks.

It will be held, we're just trying to figure some stuff out, especially since Zach's no longer got mod access. Once something's ready you'll be informed.

[Enhasa]

Oh, I hadn't noticed the modlist is different now (post server move maybe). So what happened with Zach, if it's alright for you to say?

[kengou]

If this were a top 2d fighters poll would that mean only one game from the entire Street Fighter series is worthy of a spot in the top 10? Or KOF for that matter?

This isn't the fighting game genre.

Do you know what an "analogy" is? He's making a valid argument and it would be nice to see you try to produce a valid counter-argument.

Just because a developer comes out with a series of games, the newest one does not make the previous games in the series obsolete. If people like DOJ, as well as DDP, what's the problem? The two games are somewhat similar in style but also contain many differences which make them pretty different games. I really think this is just a case of you not enjoying Cave games.

I happen to think that most Psikyo games are more similar to each other than most Cave games. Play Gunbird II and Strikers 1945 II and you can notice that a lot of the patterns are direct copies, the scoring systems are very similar, the enemy movement patterns are very similar, even the stage layouts are very similar. The differences between the games are really minor things, like the melee in Gunbird II or the dragon shot in Dragonblaze (space bomber is the one exception), Cave games, by contrast, all feel pretty different from eachother. You have Guwange which has walls and a shikigami attack as well as a coin chaining system. You have Dangun which has a much simpler but more hectic scoring system and a very fast style about it. Then you have DDP with its enemy chain system and balanced difficulty/bullet speed. DaiOuJou is much faster than DDP and has the hyper system which makes it fairly different. Ra.De. which has a very unique scoring system that's hard to even describe quickly. Galuda, which is even more different with its time-slowing and bullet-canceling mechanic. On the other end of the spectrum from Dangun you have Mushihime-Sama which focuses more on complex bullet patterns than most of the other games.

My point after all of that is that Cave games all feel different to me in both bullet patterns, stage layout, style, and fundamental mechanics. Psikyo games all seem much more similar. Don't even get me started on Irem or Toaplan or Raizing. This doesn't mean I hate these companies; I had a Psikyo title in my top 10 in fact. My point is that if somebody chooses to have Strikers 1945 II and Strikers 1945 III and Strikers 1945 Plus all in their top 10, I wouldn't think these were redundant, I would just assume that this person really enjoys this series and every game in it enough to put them all in a top 10 list. What's wrong with that?

[Rob]

Do you know what an "analogy" is?

Why would someone need fighting games to prove a point about a genre we all know more about. That's some backwards thinking.

All it says to me is that the fighting game genre is lacking a variety of quality games.

[jp]

If this were a top 2d fighters poll would that mean only one game from the entire Street Fighter series is worthy of a spot in the top 10? Or KOF for that matter?

This isn't the fighting game genre.

Do you know what an "analogy" is? He's making a valid argument and it would be nice to see you try to produce a valid counter-argument.

Just because a developer comes out with a series of games, the newest one does not make the previous games in the series obsolete. If people like DOJ, as well as DDP, what's the problem? The two games are somewhat similar in style but also contain many differences which make them pretty different games. I really think this is just a case of you not enjoying Cave games.

I happen to think that most Psikyo games are more similar to each other than most Cave games. Play Gunbird II and Strikers 1945 II and you can notice that a lot of the patterns are direct copies, the scoring systems are very similar, the enemy movement patterns are very similar, even the stage layouts are very similar. The differences between the games are really minor things, like the melee in Gunbird II or the dragon shot in Dragonblaze (space bomber is the one exception), Cave games, by contrast, all feel pretty different from eachother. You have Guwange which has walls and a shikigami attack as well as a coin chaining system. You have Dangun which has a much simpler but more hectic scoring system and a very fast style about it. Then you have DDP with its enemy chain system and balanced difficulty/bullet speed. DaiOuJou is much faster than DDP and has the hyper system which makes it fairly different. Ra.De. which has a very unique scoring system that's hard to even describe quickly. Galuda, which is even more different with its time-slowing and bullet-canceling mechanic. On the other end of the spectrum from Dangun you have Mushihime-Sama which focuses more on complex bullet patterns than most of the other games.

My point after all of that is that Cave games all feel different to me in both bullet patterns, stage layout, style, and fundamental mechanics. Psikyo games all seem much more similar. Don't even get me started on Irem or Toaplan or Raizing. This doesn't mean I hate these companies; I had a Psikyo title in my top 10 in fact. My point is that if somebody chooses to have Strikers 1945 II and Strikers 1945 III and Strikers 1945 Plus all in their top 10, I wouldn't think these were redundant, I would just assume that this person really enjoys this series and every game in it enough to put them all in a top 10 list. What's wrong with that?

Your primary problem is this:
A hardcore Cave fan will argue until death that every single Cave game is completely original and unique due to the many small tweaks, scoring quirks, patterns, difficulties, etc.

A hardcore Psikyo fan will argue until death that every single Psikyo game is completely original and unique due to the many small tweaks, scoring quirks, patterns, difficulties, etc.

A casual player of either company will probably find most games from either company very similar. Yes, both have their moments of "This ISN'T the same shit again only with a slightly different flavor", but for the most part, both companies pick a mold and stick with it through and through.

In so far as the same series/companies dominating the top 10:
I disagree. I try to keep the same series out of any of my votes, because I've already stated that I like that type of game. If I just went:
01. Hyper Duel
02. Thunder Force IV
03. Thunder Forece AC
04. Thunder Force III
05. Blast Wind
06. Elemental Master
07. Thunder Force V


Then all I would be saying is that I am completely narrow minded and only like stuff from one company and apparently do not play anything that does not fit that companies general style (though I would argue that Tecno Soft is far more varied from game to game than either Cave or Psikyo).

Then again, this IS the "Less experienced" poll, so... despite some of us voting because we were just like, "Hey, something to vote on", I guess it really does show the opinion of folks that primarily play post-Batsugun stuff.

[Ed Oscuro]

What we really need are polls that exclude fanboys of all but a specific style of game (and in the case of Cave/Psikyo, the other company), and that way we will be able to please at least some of the people every time we have a poll.

We could have qualifications to determine whether each voter is a strong enough comrade and believer in one kind of shooting to exclude n00bs who will cloud the poll result.

Alternatively, everybody could be resigned to the fact that newbies will always show up to pollute polls by giving love to obscure games that they think other people might want to try out some day, to the endless chagrin of those whom will not be satisfied until the memory of games not by their favorite company is WIPED FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH

[unsane]

Oh, I hadn't noticed the modlist is different now (post server move maybe). So what happened with Zach, if it's alright for you to say?

The neverending cycle of reincarnation

My point is that if somebody chooses to have Strikers 1945 II and Strikers 1945 III and Strikers 1945 Plus all in their top 10, I wouldn't think these were redundant, I would just assume that this person really enjoys this series and every game in it enough to put them all in a top 10 list. What's wrong with that?

I believe you might have missed the point of Rob saying "This isn't a personal top 10, it represents everyone who voted." It's a subtle point though. He wasn't saying that ppl shouldn't vote for 3 similar games, i think he was saying that the tallied results shouldn't show the same bias.

[spadgy]

I think this top-10 does just about all a voted-for listing can do. The very basic fact that it is an average of all of our opinions means that the most commonly selected games will fill the top-10.

So it's a list of popularity, not quality. Which in effect means to a certain extent it is a list of hype, fame and reputation as much as quality...

Like most of you (I assume), only about 3 or maybe 4 of my top-10 made it in, but I'm as guilty as everyone for the 'usual suspects' cropping up, as in the end however considered and varied our tastes are, most of us are likely to like a few of the most famous/popular shmups.

What did the people complaining expect? No big Cave games and all of their voted titles on the list? A load of more obscure titles?

And, lets not forget, there's a reason the big hitters make the list - they are damn good, and there's also a reason they would also crop up on more mainstream shmup lists... Their quality has made them talked about.

EDIT! Also - a massive THANK YOU to unsane for all the time and effort, and putting the extra effort in for the extra lists. Nice one...

[Ed Oscuro]

So it's a list of popularity, not quality.

We should make a list that separates those two qualities.

[Hibou]

That's just an inexperienced opinion, but from what I see, experts could consider giving a more precise definition of the goals of a top-ten.

I mean, when you say "top-ten" with no more precise criterias, I'll personally try to choose my games to present a list of games covering the most possible different gameplays and points of interest. Something like:

- Games that I consider to be the most achieved in their particular gameplay choice (Radiant Silvergun, Battle Garegga, Pulstar, Progear...)
- Games that I consider to have a really good "pure fun" potential (Thunderforce IV, P47 aces, G-Darius...)
- Games stucked to the history of the genre (R-Type...)

You see, most of the choices in my list come from my personal interpretation of "what belongs to a generalist top-ten list". The big point is that my personal list of the ten games I like or play the most would be different. And more: my personal list of the "ten most interesting games" would also be a lot different (no Darius, no R-type, etc...) And my personal list of the "ten most important games in the history of the genre" would again be different.

This makes four kinds of list I've could have done. I've choosed the one who seemed the most relevant to me for a generalist top-ten, but this choice itself could be different for other people.

So I won't pollue the experienced ones poll (in no case I would take part in anything requiring to quote myself as experienced) but, if you want to avoid honest misconceptions at the time of the definitive shmups forum poll, it may be usefull to point the most important criterias you want your list to fit.

[jp]

So it's a list of popularity, not quality.

We should make a list that separates those two qualities.

It would be impossible for most to differentiate between the two.
"I like this game, therefore it must be quality!!!"


Edit:
And no, I would not put Blast Wind on my list if such a list were to be made.

[jpj]

i wonder when we can next expect a thinly-veiled "dodonpachi chaining style scoring systems are rubbish - do you agree?" type thread... i mean i don't care about it, i just can't stop posting about how i don't care that you like games which i don't, which, er, doesn't bother me at all.....

[spadgy]

So it's a list of popularity, not quality.

We should make a list that separates those two qualities.

It would be impossible for most to differentiate between the two.
"I like this game, therefore it must be quality!!!"

Exactly. That's all these top-10s can do - but that's no bad thing, and they certainly have a place and this one was well worth unsane's efforts...

JPJ - you hit the nail on the head with you post. The fact is 'there's no accounting for taste'/ 'taste is arbitary'... so how are we ever all going to agree. We might as well stick to our own personal top-10s and stay content!


Hibou... I might be wrong, but are you saying that experts in shmups are experts in the merits and qualities of top-10s? Surely that is a given? And as for inexperienced - isn't that the point? Perhaps that's not what you're saying...

EDIT: Spelling

[Rob]

The fact is 'there's no accounting for taste'/ 'taste is arbitary'.

Millionth thread in a row where posting an opinion is followed by b-but that's just what you think! Well, duh.

The list is for commenting.

i wonder when we can next expect a thinly-veiled "dodonpachi chaining style scoring systems are rubbish - do you agree?" type thread...

I wonder when we can next expect jpj using the board for a hankie.

[God]

So it's a list of popularity, not quality.

We should make a list that separates those two qualities.

It would be impossible for most to differentiate between the two.
"I like this game, therefore it must be quality!!!"

Yes, "game quality" is too abstract to measure. As close as you can get is to measure "how well liked" a game is.

But "how well liked" by who? There's the board in general and there's those who've played it.

The poll treats trying a game and disliking it the same as not trying it in the first place. (In both cases you just leave it off your top ten.) So, a game that's obscure but well liked by the few who've tried it will rank the same as a widely played game that only a few people liked.

[cody]

Yes, "game quality" is too abstract to measure. As close as you can get is to measure "how well liked" a game is.

Sorry, but that's just plain bullshit. Quality is, to at least some extent, independent of the observer. E.G. even if you don't like Super Mario Bros 3, it is clearly a higher quality game than NES Athena.

[professor ganson]

Yeah, "it's all subjective" is a phrase that's very rarely appropriate, but I better avoid a more involved response. I spend well over a month on the subjective-objective distinction in some of my classes, and I just shouldn't get started...

[Rob]

All op-p-pinions are s-s-subjective, Cody.