PS2 Shmups, need a piece of advice

KindGrind · Post by **KindGrind** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:12 pm

Hi there. I played pretty much every shmup on the saturn (jp), and I have been particularily toying with Silvergun, Garegga (who's still kicking my butt) Ikaruga and mostly Batsugun for some time now, and can achieve pretty decent things on all 4. I have also accumulated a frightening number of hours playing Dodonpachi (though not nearly as much as the others), and enjoy it quite a bit.

The sure thing is, I really prefer vertical shooters. I tried playing TFV several times, but just can't get a good feeling of what's happening. It's as if I didn't see well, surely because I have pretty much always played vertical ones. The only exception being Hyper Duel, which is rather on the easy side.

I am looking to play something else, and don't really mind the difficulty. After all, one can adapt to anything. Which of these would you start with? Muchihimesama, Ibara or DDP:Daioujou? Why?

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:16 pm

DDP DOJ, because it's the best port. Both Mushihime and Ibara feature blur-filters, which makes playing the ports painful (epsecially Ibara).

PC Engine Fan X! · Post by **PC Engine Fan X!** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:21 pm

Playing DDP-DOJ on the import PS2 console is cool with that spot-on 15kHz output rate (can't say that of the Taito released PS2 version of Ibara looks a bit fuzzy -- playing with an actual Cave produced Ibara arcade PCB and the "fuzzy" problem goes away). Arika is to be commended for doing such a stellar job on both DDP-DOJ and ESPgaluda shmup PS2 ports.

Not to mention both above listed PS2 ports come with a Superplay DVD to check out as well. If you haven't played DDP-DOJ yet, it will kick your ass from the get-go. If you thought that DDP was hard, well, DDP-DOJ's even harder than DDP in terms of difficulty factor along with the "hyper" functionality added to the gameplay/game mechanics.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

antron · Post by **antron** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:37 pm

Ceph wrote:DDP DOJ, because it's the best port. Both Mushihime and Ibara feature blur-filters, which makes playing the ports painful (epsecially Ibara).

I would argue that it is the interlacing. When you remove that they don't look so bad.

Ruldra · Post by **Ruldra** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:58 am

I have all PS2 ports, and by far I enjoy DOJ the most.

In addition to being almost as perfect as the arcade itself, the gameplay is just awesome. Chaining, hypers, difficult as hell...add that to the death label mode and the superplay videos included, and you got yourself a great game.

I barely play the other ports in fact.

KindGrind · Post by **KindGrind** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:54 am

Thanks, guys. DDPDOJ it will be then.

PPA · Post by **PPA** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:59 am

DOJ i love

IBARA i prefer play whith a friend

Post by **spadgy** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:05 pm

Being a technical heathen, I do really enjoy the Mushi port, and don't get at all fussed by the 'blurriness' as it's barely impending on performance. In fact I regularly play Music on PCB down the local arcade, and still find the PS2 version utterly playable.

The port quality and gentle polish of DOJ is far better, and I love the game, AND there's the superplay DVD, but if you fancy trying Mushi don't let the porting issues put you off unless you have very high standards and lots of experience of the PCB, or are very fussy...

Thats just my opinion though, and I suck at the game...

-Bridget- · Post by **-Bridget-** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:24 pm

spadgy wrote:Being a technical heathen, I do really enjoy the Mushi port, and don't get at all fussed by the 'blurriness' as it's barely impending on performance. In fact I regularly play Music on PCB down the local arcade, and still find the PS2 version utterly playable.

The port quality and gentle polish of DOJ is far better, and I love the game, AND there's the superplay DVD, but if you fancy trying Mushi don't let the porting issues put you off unless you have very high standards and lots of experience of the PCB, or are very fussy...

Thats just my opinion though, and I suck at the game...

Exactly.

Of the two, I personally prefer Mushihime.

It's always seemed less..... frustrating to me.

DOJ has always seemed a bit obsessed with it's own scoring system.... a scoring system which is REALLY unforgiving, and also a pure memorizer (which I personally hate). If you want to be able to make use of the Hypers really well, you have to basically memorize everything and not make many mistakes.... danged if I can get one to appear in Stage 1, and after trying, I usually end up just getting irritable.

If you like the scoring in the first DDP, then by all means, have a go, but if you didnt like that part, you wont like this, no.

Mushihime's scoring is more forgiving, it seems to me, and also is one that I can utterly ignore without reducing the challenge of the game or something like that.

And as for all the "bad port" stuff, for that one, I seriously have never had any problems with it myself. And I get a bit sick of hearing about it, really.

I hear about this "blur", but, no, I can see every dang pixel..... so I fail to see a problem here. But then, Im also using a TV that DOESNT blow goat chunks.

And finally, to me, Mushi is worth it just for the chance to play the insane challenge of Ultra. Determined to beat that yet.... DOJ doesnt really have this, but it does have Death Label, though that's a bit more aggravating due to the pattern-style used in that game.

clp · Post by **clp** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:09 pm

i play ps2 ibara in tate in 480i and the blur is pretty much gone in rgb however it looks shit either way , mushi is just not so good .

Post by **spadgy** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:23 pm

-Bridget- wrote: And finally, to me, Mushi is worth it just for the chance to play the insane challenge of Ultra.

Always though ltra was just Cave taking the piss out of us until I saw Plasmo playing it at the recent London shooter meet. Went home, copied Plasmo by trying it with the slow-type ship, and it really is actually playable. Amazing stuff...

Segafan4life · Post by **Segafan4life** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:13 pm

Dondonpachi Dai Ou Jou because the game simply rocks and is solid from head to toe. A great shmup that really blew me away the first time I played it. And that is after years on the Saturn Versions.

henry dark · Post by **henry dark** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:42 pm

DOJ- The port is great, but the game is frustrating. Not the difficulty, I can cope with that, but the scoring system is merciless.

If you want to score well you figure out a route and stick to it, then it simply becomes a case of memorising it and executing it perfectly- I didn't feel any sense of satisfaction after chaining decently on level one, it just felt kind of like a fairly clinical exercise.

Perhaps that's why I like the first one the best- less pressure to chain and I just have a lot more fun with it.

Espgaluda on the other hand, is probably my favourite shooter. I just can't get enough of it.

bee-mangadrive · Post by **bee-mangadrive** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:40 pm

I own all of them.

Only one I consider hard to recognize and play is Ibara mainly because of the amount of debris v/s collectables/enemies on my screen. I havent spent a great deal of time with the game so knowing the patterns is more to blame than anything. I cannot keep flipping my TV over for TATE mode, so I play all my games in regular 4:3. One day I'll get a second screen for gaming but just not even practical to me right now. Its not broke with the other ports so I'm not trying to fix it.

As far as fun and playable, Espgaluda just takes the cake with me. I can sit down and play it and have a decent session anytime of the day. I guess most extreme hardcore shooters would says its too easy, but its not like I can 1cc it and I'm still working on S3. Mushi is insanely fun in maniac mode but requires a lot more of my brain and motor skills to play so when I'm fried after a day in the studio its not something I always reach for. I'm working on S2/S3. I've spent some quality time with DOJ on off days and like most say its just abusive and I think its best left to sadists. I really enjoy its challenge, but lately games have to be a relaxing experience with me, so I'll save this one for this summer when times are'nt so hectic. I've made it to S2 maybe twice. Its just that brutal to me. oO

They are all very playable and I don't see any argument in why they would graphically not appeal to shooting fans. If you have the cash to own the PCBs or lucky enough to live near an arcade then I'm sure you could question thier technical issues, but the majority of us don't so we seem to love them to death.

nimitz · Post by **nimitz** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:59 pm

for the cave ports, the best in terms of overall quality and features are:

1. Dodonpachi DOJ
1. ESP Galuda

3. Mushihimesama
4. Ibara (blurry as hell even in TATE mode)

as for wich one is the most fun. you can try watching superplays/videos around and see wich one fits your taste best. personally, I enjoy DDP:DOJ the most.

KindGrind · Post by **KindGrind** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:10 pm

Most helpful. I never really had a problem with DDP"s scoring system on the Saturn, but it seems ESPgaluda is quite fun, too.

Can't help but wonder about the blur thing 50% of people is talking about. I won't play the game in TATE, that's for sure, so would it really be a problem for me?

So, by what I read so far, Ibara is the most problematic port of the lot?

Thanks guys for your insight. You're very helpful.

Ruldra · Post by **Ruldra** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:22 pm

Ibara is somewhat blurry, even in yoko, but what's most annoying is the loading times.

At title screen, you press start...LOADING....
You start the game...LOADING...
Watch the opening sequence...LOADING...
Finish the stage...LOADING...

Sure, there are loading times in the other ports, but you barely notice them. In Ibara, they are long and annoying.

The game is actually enjoyable though, if you can ignore that.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:49 pm

Ruldra wrote:Ibara is somewhat blurry, even in yoko, but what's most annoying is the loading times.

I disagree. The most annoying part is that the intros to levels glitch, causing flying enemies to appear late or not at all. It's especially problematic on stage 1 where the popcorns are integral to your medal chain.

-Bridget- · Post by **-Bridget-** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:16 am

henry dark wrote:If you want to score well you figure out a route and stick to it, then it simply becomes a case of memorising it and executing it perfectly- I didn't feel any sense of satisfaction after chaining decently on level one, it just felt kind of like a fairly clinical exercise.

Exactly.

That's a great way to put it.

Im a huge fan of Cave, but DOJ is the one game that I just dont play too often.... and when I DO play it, Im usually just playing Death Label.

Memory feats dont impress me one bit.... skilled dodging and such is what will impress me. Not to mention draw my attention.... DOJ usually cant hold my attention for more than about 15 minutes, but Mushi Ultra can keep me pasted to it all night.

I love Cave, but I usually just hate their scoring systems..... I think Progear and maybe Galuda are the only ones I'll bother to attempt scoring in.

KindGrind · Post by **KindGrind** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:22 am

This is also exactly how I feel when chaining in Ikaruga.

After an hour, I'm completely -mentally- exhausted.

Ruldra · Post by **Ruldra** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:29 pm

henry dark wrote:I didn't feel any sense of satisfaction after chaining decently on level one, it just felt kind of like a fairly clinical exercise.

The satisfaction comes when you see your scores go off the roof when you chain perfectly. A normal st01 run will give you around 1-3mil, while a perfect chain will give you 20mil. Even more if you use hypers.

My previous top score, without chaining, was 40mil, and the run ended on st05. With a half-decent chaining, around st03 I had already surpassed that. I was really amazed.

I like to see DOJ scoring system as something that only the very best will get the ultimate reward. But yeah, I can see it's very sadistic, and does not appeal to everyone.

KindGrind · Post by **KindGrind** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:48 pm

So I snatched Mushi, DOJ and Galuda from Venom, and thought I'd share my first impressions, after a a couple of games with each.

Mushi

When I first played it, I thought the basic shot was very weak, and that Reko moved VERY slowly, especially when shooting. (Knowing about auto-fire would have helped) I left it aside, only to try it a bit more yesterday night, and boy I was blown away. I mostly played arrange, and could go to St4 boss in my 2nd game, netting quite a bit of points (although from what i've seen in the High Scores forum, you guys totally abuse the game... 300M upwards!?) scoring like 50M. The game, especially arrange, feels easy and quite forgiving (tiny collision mask, or is it just me?)

Galuda

Probably my favourite. Again, not very tough, wise scoring, nice enemy/bullet patterns, great bosses. Annoying is the change of controls config. in arcade and arrange. Other than that, I can get to end of ST3/ST4 on the first continue, take another one for ST4, and 25 for the boss on ST5. WTF? Fun times to be had. With practice, I think this one will become a great contender for a 1CC (up to the last boss anyways).

DDP

By far the hardest of the 3, and the less forgiving. Scoring system is super tight, the use of bombs is VERY penalizing. Chainging in this one (for me) is a lot tougher than in DDP (SS). On survival mode I can get pretty far, trying to chain here and there, but the amount of points I get is ridiculously low. Tons of memorization needed. The one I played less.

Necronopticous · Post by **Necronopticous** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:51 pm

KindGrind wrote:Mushi

When I first played it, I thought the basic shot was very weak, and that Reko moved VERY slowly, especially when shooting. (Knowing about auto-fire would have helped) I left it aside, only to try it a bit more yesterday night, and boy I was blown away. I mostly played arrange, and could go to St4 boss in my 2nd game, netting quite a bit of points (although from what i've seen in the High Scores forum, you guys totally abuse the game... 300M upwards!?) scoring like 50M. The game, especially arrange, feels easy and quite forgiving (tiny collision mask, or is it just me?)

The real fun comes when you get the hang of building up and banking your counters with different shot frequencies. It basically turns into a fun rhythm game on top of a shmup that's already a lot of fun. It's very exhilirating to see your base counter rise to over 100k.

Check out EOJ's awesome guide for details:

http://www.cave-stg.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?id=4

ForceDevice · Post by **ForceDevice** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:54 pm

KindGrind wrote: Mushi

When I first played it, I thought the basic shot was very weak, and that Reko moved VERY slowly

You must've probably already realized by yourself, but Reko's speed depends on the kind of power you're using. You probably picked W-Power, the slowest of the three.

KindGrind wrote:Galuda

I can get to end of ST3/ST4 on the first continue, take another one for ST4, and 25 for the boss on ST5. WTF? Fun times to be had. With practice, I think this one will become a great contender for a 1CC (up to the last boss anyways).

The last boss is the only reason I haven't 1CC'd it yet. Hell, I'd say it kills me more than any boss in DOJ. First time I played Galuda, back when I totally sucked at shmups, I remember spending more than 100 credits to beat that boss O_O

I'd give my opinion on which games you should get, but apparently I'm too late.

I'll just tell you one thing, consider yourself lucky for not playing Ibara. *runs from army of furious Ibara fanboys*

KindGrind · Post by **KindGrind** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:01 am

You're right, first ever game I played, I used W-Power, and held the A button down... Man that was slow! Played a bit more tonight, can go up to 70M on arrange now, nothing impressive, but I'm getting a hang of things.

EOJ's guide certainly helped.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:48 am

KindGrind wrote:You're right, first ever game I played, I used W-Power, and held the A button down... Man that was slow! Played a bit more tonight, can go up to 70M on arrange now, nothing impressive, but I'm getting a hang of things.

EOJ's guide certainly helped.

Just so you know Arrange works nothing like Maniac/Ultra mode as far as scoring system goes.

KindGrind · Post by **KindGrind** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:45 am

Yep, I am well aware of that

henry dark · Post by **henry dark** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:14 pm

Going back to DOJ briefly- I think the only time I ever really enjoyed that game was when I first got it, when the only thing that concerned me was surviving, not scoring.

As soon as I got decent-ish in that department (i.e getting to stage 4 regularly) and started concentrating on chaining I started to hate it very quickly. The game became stressful, frustrating, not fun. The counter turning blue when you drop the chain just feels like Cave going "ha ha!".

Mushi PS2 on the other hand, isn't a great port. It is, however, much more fun than DOJ. Whereas DOJ demands you put a lot of time into it, Mushi is the perfect game to dip in and out of- Arrange mode is absolutely the best time i've had with a shooter outside of Espgaluda and Mushi Futari.

Zipping all over the screen, learning to avoid bullets in a totally pressure free environment (you start with 9 lives) also gives you great practice (and confidence) for Maniac mode when you're ready for it- having that mode means you're free to devote real time to it if you want, unlike DOJ (or Dodonpachi, which I also have little time for) where it's mandatory.

Anyway...

Post by **Shatterhand** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:17 pm

Mushi PS2 on the other hand, isn't a great port. It is, however, much more fun than DOJ. Whereas DOJ demands you put a lot of time into it, Mushi is the perfect game to dip in and out of-

That's exactly how I feel about Mushi too.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:22 pm

KindGrind wrote:Yep, I am well aware of that

Just checking! many people have gotten confused over the different scoring systems, myself included.