Triggerheart Exelica on Xbox Live?

[system11]

Gamespots review is up. They gave it a 6. The defining line is "Triggerheart is a passable arcade shooter, but doesn't offer enough to make it worth the asking price." Also, the game apparently features only 15 minutes of gameplay.

This makes me angry.

Also tired of people who think 800 points is a lot of money for a game.

[D]

Everybody always hating on people who credit feed through a shmup.
Why are credits always unlimited in all but a few shmups.
It's the fault of the developers that people bash shmups.
dumb fukks.
Games like Sonic Wings Special got it right, you can manually select how many credits you want for every game. Modern games like Under Defeat also have limited credits, that eventually turn into unlimited, which is also much better than the lazy: "it's an arcade game so credit feed for free through it and so please bash our genre". Credits should be default on something like 5 I guess. Or make a system like this:

1-3 credits: all levels
4-7: all, but the last level
7-10: all but the 2 last levels
unlimited: Only first 2 levels

Would seem an easy choice to get a 10% increase in magazine review scores. But, what do I know, I'm a nut.

[SuperGrafx]

This makes me angry.

Also tired of people who think 800 points is a lot of money for a game.

Precisely.

$10 usd for a game isn't a big bank breaker at all, especially when you consider that most bargain titles usually retail for $20 usd and up.

And even in previous console generations we would have marvelled at the thought of being able to buy full games via an online distribution system for a fraction of what a full release cost. I'm surprised this is lost to reviewers on those so-called game review websites. If it were up to them they'd just as well pay nothing for games like THE simply because they don't get how to play it properly.

[zakk]

So uhh, all the complaining about the leaderboards.

Did they patch it, or is the trial different from the full, or am I totally misunderstanding what everyone is complaining about?

Under the 'leaderboard' menu item, for each character, there's the option for 'friend' (which only shows friends scores), 'my score', 'all' and 'weekly'.

So what's the complaint again? Is it somehow broken yet gives the illusion of keeping track of your local scores?

[szycag]

You won't see your friends score in that menu, or your own score in it's menu, if they don't break into the weekly top 100. If you're not in that top 100, you're not even on the leaderboards server, so you just have no entry. Say for example in Geometry Wars Evolved, my crappy 300k score is still on the leaderboard, in something like 161,075th place. It gives every single player who plays the game a rank. What I guess we'll find out today, is if these scores will disappear when the weekly scores reset. Or maybe the friends and myscore boards only keep all-time scores.

Games like Marble Blast Ultra keep everybody's times for every single stage, so I doubt it's an issue of keeping 12 different leaderboards (weekly and alltime, each difficulty and character)

[Acid King]

This makes me angry.

Also tired of people who think 800 points is a lot of money for a game.

I think it's ridiculous that a games cost affects its score. One of the user reviews on the site said that if it wasn't for the achievements there wouldn't be any replay value at all, which is retarded on so many levels, and the game should have been 400, not 800 points. I guess quality gameplay mechanics don't count as much as perceived value.

[postman]

Are the stipulations for the "good ending" the same in the Dreamcast version?

I fought Fainttear on levels 1+3, then beat the game without using any conintues. I'm playing on Dreamcast and on the easiest level. Still I get the same last boss and same ending.........

What's up with that?

[Daigohji]

I was 15k short of the 50mil achievement on my last run ;_;

[nZero]

Just noticed that Gulti is credited for programming and graphics for the XBLA Exelica. Practice for Raiden Fighters Aces, and/or a Mamonoro-kun port?

Are the stipulations for the "good ending" the same in the Dreamcast version?

You only get different endings in Story Mode in the DC version, at which point the difference is credit-feed vs 1CC (since you always encounter Faintear)

Trivia: they cropped Crueltear's ass out of the frame when she's falling during her ending in the XBLA version.

[jp]

I got this a few days back.


Interesting note:


It looks like they changed the scoring system. Its been a minute since I've played it on the Dreamcast, but I seem to recall the Dreamcast having a multiplier that increased as you killed enemies without grabbing one and making it explode.

As you can see in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Jnt_cytlzk

There is a multiplier in the top left corner. If you kill an enemy by throwing it into another enemy, this multiplier goes DOWN. Which was pretty important in the DC version and was what my entire "fighting a boss" strategy was based around. Granted, unless you knew how to manipulate that system, it made scoring a bit more difficult.

Now on the XBLA version, they took out the multiplier that went up and down. Now the multiplier relies SOLELY on the amount of medals you have, and as far as I can tell you aren't penalized for throwing enemies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGyz-nArFR4

As you can see, this player almost EXCLUSIVELY throws enemies, and the multiplier keeps going UP. Ergo, the penalty and ability to milk the multiplier to RIDICULOUS levels are both gone.

Ergo, THE plays almost entirely different on XBLA that it did in the arcades/Dreamcast in so far as score.

But, this is a good thing. Because the old scoring system was broken and lead to people getting 200 million points in level 1. So, hurray! They fixed the scoring system.

Other than that, the graphics are a bit sharper and the music sounds like its remixed. Personally, I'm just happy the scoring system is sensible now. But now I gotta 1CC the game again. ^_-

[zakk]

I'm not so sure the scoring is different. The xbox one looks like the DC one just with the visible multiplier removed. The chip count doesn't go down in the DC version either when you throw things.


Keep in mind that a massive scoring stage 1 in the DC/arcade ends with 12k+ chips. If the changes you're proposing are true, it would just encourage the exact same type of behavior, except maybe allow you to throw a bit more. You'd still need to massively milk if the multiplier were straight chip based. The XBL video you just showed is exactly the score I would expect from how he's playing. I may try the demo and see what I can do, but I dunno how much progress I'll make with a 360 pad an so long away from messing with the game.

[jp]

Hmm... put wouldn't the visible scores go DOWN whenever you threw something?


Like, if you just throw enemies, you can see the points right? For XBLA the points always go up. It never goes down. I don't remember if the visible points (when you throw stuff) go down in the DC version, I just remember always being mindful of the multiplier, and always trying to avoid throwing stuff unless it would net me a TON of medals to make up for the drop in the multiplier.

Also, playing like this, I seem to recall generally netting 30-35mill on the DC version, whereas on the XBLA version I generally get 20-25mill playing the exact same way I always did, with virtually the same exact medal counts (I think).

Though I could be wrong. It has been awhile since I played the DC version, and it could very well just be the lack of the visible multiplier thats making me think that. I will go investigate and report back.

[jp]

Yes, the scoring is different. The values are different, the way it works is different, and its different in more places than I listed. Its kinda weird actually.


They did play with the numbers, but it seems like the way the new system works you can get a more consistent score without as much work, whereas in the original version you had to be on top of things during boss fights to get ridiculously high scores.

I.e.

I can hit 35 mill in level 1 on the Dreamcast, but going into the boss fight I think I have like 10 mill. Whereas on the XBLA version, going into the boss fight I'll have just under 20 mill and will finish the level with 25 mill or so.

Also, like I said, they did play with the numbers too.

So yeah, if you're playing for score, the XBLA version is different from the DC version.

[zakk]

If they indeed made the multiplier strictly based on the chip count, they made the milking problem worse. It just means you can throw things a bit more indiscriminately during stages. Although it's unclear if you'd want to do that since you'd probably get more chips by shooting a bunch of things and delaying chip collecting as long as possible.

Maybe they messed with the enemy point values or something. I dunno, you just confirmed I'm not going to spend money on the port, though!

[jp]

They did play around with the numbers. I'm not sure how they balance out now, but they did change them. You get vastly different "visible points" when throwing enemies between the two versions.


Also of interest:

Once you have a decent base of medals in the first part of the DC/Arcade version, try throwing a plane into a group of other planes. Notice how all the visible points are different? Thats because the multiplier went down for every explosion that occured.

Do the same thing in the XBLA version. Notice how ALL the visible points are the EXACT same value? Thats because there's no longer a multiplier being manipulated.

That said, I think the changes are good. The way THE was originally setup made it so that they discouraged players from using the throwing techniques, and while they make the game a lot easier, its still kind of weird to punish people for making use of the main "gimmick" I suppose. In the XBLA, liberal use of the throwing mechanics is almost welcome. Though it does make playing for score A LOT easier (seriously, the difference in how I fight bosses in the two versions is insane), but that should be forgivable because the DC controller is infinitely better than the 360's for this game (and I mean like, holy shit, when I went back and played it on the DC, I was amazed at the difference).

So yeah. Basically, in the DC version your score comes from building an insanely high multiplier (and maintaining it, so no throwing!) for boss fights, whereas the XBLA version plays more like the Arrange version, with the multiplier completely removed.

[zakk]

I never noticed this because I never really threw things in the game!

Can you determine any sort of correlation between chip count and the multiplier?

Also are the boss 'bonus' numbers changed? I think they were based off the chip count and some static multiplier in the DC version, but I never quite figured it out because there's so many moving parts (it increases as you take in chips, too) Hilariously enough, I think the multiplier was x360

edit: it's still x360 in the XBLA port.

So now the question is: what exactly increases the multiplier, and will you get more overall items if you use the 'shoot and wait while they fall' method vs getting them via throws

[jp]

The boss bonus numbers were time based if I recall correctly. And then the multiplier you had would obviously multiply to points for killing each form (hence why boss fights were the big score bringers in the original).


But I'll check it out today and try to figure it out for sure.

[zakk]

The boss bonus numbers were time based if I recall correctly. And then the multiplier you had would obviously multiply to points for killing each form (hence why boss fights were the big score bringers in the original).


But I'll check it out today and try to figure it out for sure.

No, they decrease with time, but the initial 'new' value has a dependency on your item counts.

It works like this: when the boss fight starts, the initial bonus value is set to item_count * 360 (you can verify this at the beginning of the boss fight, top right corner under the life bar)

This value starts decreasing as soon as the battle begins. It will INCREASE if you pick up items, but you need to pick a bunch up to have any useful increase (more later)

When you destroy a boss form the current value of the bonus is added to your score (the big number displayed on the screen), the NEW value for the number is then current_bonus_value + (item_count * 360). If you've timed it right you also converted a bunch of bullets to items, when you suck those in they will increase your bonus value too, although I do not know the formula. On really dense patterns I've seen it increase by a few million.

If you destroy a boss form with shot, you get no multiplier based bonus at all. If you destroy it via a thrown enemy, it acts as normal and you get enemy_base_value * multiplier added to your score.

All this appears to hold true in the XBLA version, the difference being that we don't really know how the multiplier works anymore.

If it's directly proportional to your item count you want to play the boss fights like you did before, with only one change: you should take every opportunity you can to destroy a form with a thrown enemy since there's no penalty for doing so. You'd still want to milk the boss for as many items as possible.

If the multiplier is dependent on something else, then you may need to modify the boss milk type strats; although I can not think of a scenario where you wouldn't want to milk the bosses for items.

[jp]

Hmmm... you're right. It doesn't really fix the problem with extreme milking (which I view as a problem anyways, others might not).

Really, all the changes do is make it so that throwing an enemy (and thus making boss fights MUCH easier) isn't penalizing and playing through levels throwing enemies (making it easier) isn't penalizing either. I think the system Warashi WANTED people to use was to use enemies to soak up bullets thus creating medals, and then dispose of the enemies without using them as offensive objects. It seems that they went a different route with the XBLA version, one that is much more in line with the Arrange Mode of the Dreamcast, only without the heightened difficulty.

That said, I have noticed some slight fluctuations when throwing enemies, but as I outlined earlier, the point values and the severity of the fluctuations is very different. So, in so far as score, yes, THE plays vastly different on XBLA than it does on the Dreamcast or in the arcades.


Though honestly, I'm not entirely certain WHAT the system in the XBLA version is. I know it is different though, because in the XBLA version I get a bulk of my points from the levels, whereas in the DC version the bulk of my points came from boss fights wherein I acquired a 200-300+ multiplier by avoiding throwing enemies at all.

[FIL]

You get penalised for throwing? looks like i've been doing it very wrong.

[jp]

You get penalised for throwing? looks like i've been doing it very wrong.

In the Dreamcast version you do.


Not so much on the XBLA version.

[nZero]

You get penalised for throwing? looks like i've been doing it very wrong.

Penalised for throwing at the wrong time. Sometimes the gain outweighs the loss.

Anyway, yes, the scoring systems are different. That much could be told from the disparity in score in just the first section of the first level with the same tactics. However, total scores are evened out to roughly the same (minus exploitative scores) given the same style of play. I've only played the XBLA version a couple of times (I have no X360 of my own) so I don't have any personal theories as to why of yet. So does the HS thread get separate tables now?

Also, you could destroy a boss form with a thrown enemy without multiplier penalty in the Arcade/DC version as well, if you took advantage of a technicality. V.B.A.S. doesn't penalize throwing an enemy you were already holding from a previous form.

[No_not_like_Quake]

Gamespots review is up. They gave it a 6. The defining line is "Triggerheart is a passable arcade shooter, but doesn't offer enough to make it worth the asking price." Also, the game apparently features only 15 minutes of gameplay.

This makes me angry.

Also tired of people who think 800 points is a lot of money for a game.

Right. I hate to quote meself (an idiot named Soldierblade on ign) but the 10$ CAN it costs to buy this game is still much much less than the actual amount of cash it would take for the ign staff to "finish" this game in the arcade. Nevermind Gamespot or the other I bleed ignorance game sites.

[ilike2game]

This game is kicking my butt, lol. I am slowly getting better at bullet hell games though

[dmauro]

I love just tossing enemies, perhaps I should get the XBLA version so I can get a better score

[Daigohji]

What the fuck? I loaded up THE today and found my scores and settings had reset even though I haven't deleted anything off my 360. I checked a few of my other XBLA games and none of them have suffered this problem.

[Strider77]

don't worry, THE kinda blows so they made it delete your hi scores in order to completely blow.

[captain ahar]

don't worry, THE kinda blows so they made it delete your hi scores in order to completely blow.

[DJ Incompetent]

What the fuck? I loaded up THE today and found my scores and settings had reset even though I haven't deleted anything off my 360. I checked a few of my other XBLA games and none of them have suffered this problem.

uh...dunno about your settings, but the Japanese have swarmed this piece. You were probably knocked off the scoreboards. I think you need like, 140 mil just to get on one now...

[Strider77]

ok, sorry... THE is awsome. come on i don't hate on games NEARLY as much as other on here. Just let me have THE.... it sux in such a special way to me, well trizeal beats it honestly in the suck factor.