My take on the "slow bullet" games' problem

[Twiddle]

DID SOMEONE SAY

PVP?

No, not this shit. Not here.

[orange]

I wouldn't go that far. The people who actually like the games would be victims of circumstance.

I don't like the games just because I don't find them fun, and I do not like the hellacious amounts of fan-wank surrounding it for reasons that will remain obvious. That said, I will not confuse fans of the former with fans of the latter. They like games that consist of 4 minute boss fights and scoring systems that depend entirely on whether the slow key is being held, I like stunt-man scoring systems and rooms with literally thousands of enemies and bullets going so fast you need to either have a sixth sense or good memory. No skin off any back.

i don't like people who like the games for the gameplay









because the gameplay is TERRIBLE

[shoe-sama]

i dunno, you get to tape down the shot button and go make a sandwich

sounds pretty awesoem ya?

[orange]

sandwichmup

[SockPuppetHyren]

I think that in the end, trying to say that the characters have some sort of story and development is like saying that people like starship troopers for the engaging plot and well developed characters. nothing is really there. you have something that's created it's own little niche where every pedophilic wet dream can be fulfilled because the guy behind the games made a character for every archetype there is.

Did you read the part of my post that said ZUN rarely, if ever uses stock archtypes? That his characters show ZUN put slightly more thought into his cast than "MEIDO + FANBOYZ = CASH!!"? I don't think you did.
This paragraph makes it seem like you hate the series because it has retarded fans. This, to me, is stupid due to the fact that most ALL fandoms have pervs in them. What, are you going to start hating Mario because people jack-it to Peach?

I'd understand your point if the games themselves had suggestive content, or if the series started using a mostly female cast recently; but in Touhou's case, it's been a part of the series since it's conception on the PC-98.

it's a laugh to say it HAS development, when it hasn't developed anything except a huge market pandering to horny teenagers. you could just as easily attatch the characters to an anime or a strategy game, and they would be eaten up because of the fact they're just there to be some horny guy's wank material. hell, that's what japan basically does now in order to ensure sales. it's like how most every FPS is burly manly men that are bald space marines FIGHTAN ALIEN ENVAYDORS and giving each other grand pats on the back for killing that giant bug. it SELLS.

First off, capitalization, USE IT! Caps lock does not count either.

Second, I sense much RRRAAAAAAGE in this post. Ill placed, silly rage too. From my perspective, your ragging on Touhou for simply because it uses females, which, again, is stupid to me. You sound less like a frustrated artist at the un-originality of the game industry and more like an angry nerd who's blood boils at the thought of some guy thinking Chun-li has nice legs. You hate the game because it has pervy fans. That's effectively what you're saying, with that logic, you should hate any game with female characters.

Oh, and you hate it because, like ALL commercial games, it's made with the intent to make money. *Faceplm*

If you don't enjoy the gameplay, that' cool, I don't care, just move on. But using the series in a mock-crusade against fan-faggotry and raging on anyone who likes it makes you look like a dumbass who's really no better than the pervs they hate

[shoe-sama]

sandwichmup

not a bad thing to start on if you're a beginner

[orange]

sandwichmup

not a bad thing to start on if you're a beginner

or in a coma

[Rob]

Nice signature a few posts up.

[JoshF]

Where?

[Rob]

It's kind of small, you have to really look for it.

[Gungriffon Geona]

Did you read the part of my post that said ZUN rarely, if ever uses stock archtypes? That his characters show ZUN put slightly more thought into his cast than "MEIDO + FANBOYZ = CASH!!"? I don't think you did.
This paragraph makes it seem like you hate the series because it has retarded fans. This, to me, is stupid due to the fact that most ALL fandoms have pervs in them. What, are you going to start hating Mario because people jack-it to Peach?

No, the peach fans are ignorable. most of them are 14 or idiots. That won't really ruin anything except to those people who dare venture on 4chan and actively look for it. Touhou is a bit harder to ignore because it has such a rabid following that's kind of hard to understand, because it just seems so generic.
I think the point behind my starship troopers reference was about right.

I'd understand your point if the games themselves had suggestive content, or if the series started using a mostly female cast recently; but in Touhou's case, it's been a part of the series since it's conception on the PC-98.

To be honest I haven't liked them since I first heard about them and tried perfect cherry blossom. If I had even heard about them back when they first came out I'd still dislike it because time doesn't change the genericness of it. Let's have a bunch of lolis scream at each other then fight. rinse and repeat.

First off, capitalization, USE IT! Caps lock does not count either.

No lol. Ok I lied. Not that it really makes a difference other than the classic tactic of picking out flaws to discredit anything I say. Not quite the oldest trick in the book, but pretty close.

Second, I sense much RRRAAAAAAGE in this post. Ill placed, silly rage too. From my perspective, your ragging on Touhou for simply because it uses females, which, again, is stupid to me. You sound less like a frustrated artist at the un-originality of the game industry and more like an angry nerd who's blood boils at the thought of some guy thinking Chun-li has nice legs. You hate the game because it has pervy fans. That's effectively what you're saying, with that logic, you should hate any game with female characters.

Oh no, don't get me wrong. I don't mind perversion that much, except when it's just painfully obvious that the character was made specifically for the sexuality. See Lara Croft and Bloodrayne, where after their first game that's their only redeeming point. (by redeeming I mean "stupid bitch with giant boobs", but that's another story altogether.) those guys can go do their weird thing in their corner while I go be weird in my corner.
I'm very much angry that someone like myself could take the time to create a storyline with characters that have realistic and unique personalities, and then tie it to an innovative game design to that, and it gets left to the side because FPS game number 671 or JRPG number... infinity was liked more by 12 year olds with rich parents.

Oh, and you hate it because, like ALL commercial games, it's made with the intent to make money. *Faceplm*

You misspelled facepalm. SEE SEE I CAN POINT OUT FLAWS TOO AREN'T I SPECIAL.
I don't mind that. I could care less. some of the best games are the ones that go out to "make money" (Katamari is quite nifty, and I'm rather suprised at how such a simple concept with a few quirks has become extremely smooth when compared to the first game.), as you so elegantly put it. but the fact everyone is trying so hard to take the "safe" route is honestly disturbing. It means you could place rainbow colored human feces in a box and people will eat it up. I'm rather happy that things with real work put into them are actually selling though, such as Team Fortress 2, where you have a very nice blend of cartoony graphics and extremely fair gameplay. (even if it has become somewhat retarded with extremely bad players filling most servers.) Or that new WipEout game that's coming out, which has been a series that's remained very unique stylistically and is fun to play. I'm very dissappointed that Ookami was so ignored though, which did alot of really amazing things that deserved much better than it got.

If you don't enjoy the gmeplay, that' cool, I don't care, just move on. But using the series in a mock-crusade against fan-faggotry and raging on anyone who likes it makes you look like a dumbass who s really no better than the pervs they hate

Anger is anger grrr me haet evrythin.

[SockPuppetHyren]

No, the peach fans are ignorable. most of them are 14 or idiots. That won't really ruin anything except to those people who dare venture on 4chan and actively look for it. Touhou is a bit harder to ignore because it has such a rabid following that's kind of hard to understand, because it just seems so generic.
I think the point behind my starship troopers reference was about right.

A shmup fan complaining about generic design in a shmup? Would have never thought I'd see the day.

2d shooters, like th mecha anime genre are not known for it's innovative design. Hell, to Joe every-gamer, R-Type and Gradius are the same game. Hell, when I first got into shooters, I referred to Cave games as "DonPachi with X gimmick". Thankfully, I out grew this behavior. I love shmups and mecha, but I'm not in to either for unique visual style.

I like playing the Touhou games, it's my preference. You don't, and that's cool. No need to rage on people because they like something. Fandom is much easier to avoid than you think.

also, I haven't met a single Starship Trooper fan yet.

To be honest I haven't liked them since I first heard about them and tried perfect cherry blossom. If I had even heard about them back when they first came out I'd still dislike it because time doesn't change the genericness of it. Let's have a bunch of lolis scream at each other then fight. rinse and repeat.

Unlike the unique action of having a space ship blast tanks with a score screen separating them. Right.

No lol. Ok I lied. Not that it really makes a difference other than the classic tactic of picking out flaws to discredit anything I say. Not quite the oldest trick in the book, but pretty close.

I admit my flaw and will not argue this.

Oh no, don't get me wrong. I don't mind perversion that much, except when it's just painfully obvious that the character was made specifically for the sexuality. See Lara Croft and Bloodrayne, where after their first game that's their only redeeming point. (by redeeming I mean "stupid bitch with giant boobs", but that's another story altogether.) those guys can go do their weird thing in their corner while I go be weird in my corner.
I'm very much angry that someone like myself could take the time to create a storyline with characters that have realistic and unique personalities, and then tie it to an innovative game design to that, and it gets left to the side because FPS game number 671 or JRPG number... infinity was liked more by 12 year olds with rich parents.

Sooo, you're jealous? Really, you making nice innovative games and nice fleshed out characters is fine and dandy. Venting your RAGE at people for liking a game that you don't is annoying. Why don't you use all that energy you have advertising your game instead of yelling at a person who likes something you don't? Hell, if your game is anywhere near as awesome as you make it sound, I'd play it in a heartbeat.

You misspelled facepalm. SEE SEE I CAN POINT OUT FLAWS TOO AREN'T I SPECIAL.

You deserve it.

I don't mind that. I could care less. some of the best games are the ones that go out to "make money" (Katamari is quite nifty, and I'm rather suprised at how such a simple concept with a few quirks has become extremely smooth when compared to the first game.), as you so elegantly put it. but the fact everyone is trying so hard to take the "safe" route is honestly disturbing. It means you could place rainbow colored human feces in a box and people will eat it up. I'm rather happy that things with real work put into them are actually selling though, such as Team Fortress 2, where you have a very nice blend of cartoony graphics and extremely fair gameplay. (even if it has become somewhat retarded with extremely bad players filling most servers.) Or that new WipEout game that's coming out, which has been a series that's remained very unique stylistically and is fun to play. I'm very dissappointed that Ookami was so ignored though, which did alot of really amazing things that deserved much better than it got.

I feel the same way, really. It does suck when a game like Ookami goes ignored. I's really love to see more unique, well made stuff.

That said ragging on a doujin game isn't going to make things better. Touhou's niche is just that a niche. It may be large by shmup standards, but that's not really saying much. As vocal as Touhou fans maybe, they're numbers aren't nearly as large as it seems. Hell, I don't even think many of the fans buy the games.

Honestly, if it weren't for th Touhou series, I probably wouldn't be into shmups, as those were my main motivation in trying rcade shmups.

Anger is anger grrr me haet evrythin.

RRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAGE![/quote]

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

^ your sig image is too big.

[PROMETHEUS]

also, I haven't met a single Starship Trooper fan yet.

Me :D ! I like this movie :D Did you guys say it sucks very hard ? ^^;

[SockPuppetHyren]

^ your sig image is too big.

Sig removed, sorry.

[Twiddle]

also, I haven't met a single Starship Trooper fan yet.

Me ! I like this movie Did you guys say it sucks very hard ? ^^;

it made fun of right-wingers

[Gungriffon Geona]

A shmup fan complaining about generic design in a shmup? Would have never thought I'd see the day.

HYPOCRISY? IN MY INTERNET?
IT'S MORE LIKELY THAN YOU THINK!

2d shooters, like the mecha anime genre are not known for it's innovative design. Hell, to Joe every-gamer, R-Type and Gradius are the same game. Hell, when I first got into shooters, I referred to Cave games as "DonPachi with X gimmick". Thankfully, I out grew this behavior. I love shmups and mecha, but I'm not in to either for unique visual style.

To be honest either genre is largely the opposite of what you say. Sure they tend to have the same basic idea going on within each, but by far they shouldn't be labelled for the cover. Each series/show/game in the genres have major points that make them different. Art style and writing/design is a major factor. In mecha, you have story differences that are handled within the writing, such as what sort of laws the universe allow, and what sort of capabilities the machines have. Don't get me started on the fact that most main mechs are very different design wise unless the same designer works on multiple series. In shooters, you have things that range from military acshun, to steampunk, to grotesque abominations, and then wacky humorous stylings, and everything in between. Add to it the scenarios are never really the same. Gameplay mechanics vary drastically when you get into the genre's workings, even if at points they do seem similiar.
And honestly, how could you get R-Type and Gradius confused? The main ship and gameplay mechanics don't look or play anything alike aside from moving up left right down and diagonal. I think you meant to say "to Joe every-gamer, he doesn't know what R-Type and Gradius is and has never seen them before, and refers to every shooter as 'Geometry Wars' by default".

I like playing the Touhou games, it's my preference. You don't, and that's cool. No need to rage on people because they like something. Fandom is much easier to avoid than you think.

Tell me how to avoid furry drama then.

also, I haven't met a single Starship Trooper fan yet.

...Yeah good point there.

Unlike the unique action of having a space ship blast tanks with a score screen separating them. Right.

In reality, there is some uniqueness that seperates that. Most normal shooters give you a background to which you scroll upon, firing at enemies that come out of crevices and bunkers and such, as well as many things such as in hori games where you have physical blockades and stuff where the level will move around and try to kill you. Touhou doesn't really have any of that, does it?

Sooo, you're jealous? Really, you making nice innovative games and nice fleshed out characters is fine and dandy. Venting your RAGE at people for liking a game that you don't is annoying. Why don't you use all that energy you have advertising your game instead of yelling at a person who likes something you don't? Hell, if your game is anywhere near as awesome as you make it sound, I'd play it in a heartbeat.

Jealous isn't the word. As I've stated, I don't like how something that seems so... well, let's put it this way. Touhou is the MMO of the shmup genre in my eyes. It's not a great view of what the genre is about, and it takes things that are usually an optional or easily handled point and makes it key and arduous.

I don't really have the capability to make a game myself aside from graphics and writing. The rest requires either finding someone really talented at coding or to spend money out of my pocket. While I can get several talented graphics people together to help me in that aspect (one guy doing all the graphics seems horribly daunting. :[ ) I only ever found one coder, and even though he understood game design, he wasn't too enthusiastic and left alot to be desired. (He actually left while I was trying to get things situated for the first level of the shmup project, but that was due to IRL issues. I would've liked it if he had atleast came back to say something though.)
Let's not get into finding talented musicians. Too many of them are techno/trance enthusiasts because it's easy as hell to make a trance song.

I feel the same way, really. It does suck when a game like Ookami goes ignored. I's really love to see more unique, well made stuff.

Hooray.

That said ragging on a doujin game isn't going to make things better. Touhou's niche is just that a niche. It may be large by shmup standards, but that's not really saying much. As vocal as Touhou fans maybe, they're numbers aren't nearly as large as it seems. Hell, I don't even think many of the fans buy the games.

It's still a very large niche though. It gets even weirder when you have those japanese people who know english and start yelling about it, because they are the target audience. The reason americans and such take to it... Yeah it's basically that most are weaboos and will eat up anything that has a pretty girl on it. Don't take offense, as you can probably see that if you look on a wide scale. (Why are things like Azumanga, Haruhi, and Lucky Star popular when they're almost literally about nothing, I ask you.)

Anger is anger grrr me haet evrythin.

RRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!

!EGAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRR

[Rob]

A tip: would be simpler to pick 1-2 key points to address instead of fragmenting every comment into 5 quotes. Or else it might as well just be a PM. Just saying.

[Gungriffon Geona]

what, and leave everyone out of the fun that is debate? I think not!

[orange]

i'm pretty much awesome

that's basically what i got out of reading all of that ;>

[moozooh]

I also don't really get what Gungriffon Geona is so rigorously arguing about. The last posts are all "I dislike point A. But really, point A is so bad. I mean I can't even express how awful it is. I like point B. It doesn't really look like point A, it has its distinctive features". Yeah, well, ok.

I really don't think coming here and express your dislike makes you, orange, or anyone else like that, look cool. No, in fact it makes you look boring, because the thread wasn't about lolis or fanbases or whatever, it wasn't even about Touhou in the first place. It was about assessing bullet hell games from the paradigm of classic shooters. Stop cluttering the thread by justifying your opinions with more opinions.

This paragraph makes it seem like you hate the series because it has retarded fans.

Don't be surprised, a lot of people hate religion for the same thing.

(Hitler, pervs, 4chan, the only thing left to crawl into this thread was religion. Now it is complete.)

Which makes me wonder, are there danmakku shooters were bullet fly FAST?

Sure there are. For instance, the recently released doujin named Zillion Beatz (look for it on the forum, there are download links there), play it on Super-hard, or better yet, Unbelievable difficulty. Good luck clearing the first level without bombing, though; it's bullshit hard like that. (And yeah, everything except the boss fights is pretty uninspired in that particlar game).
Blue Wish Resurrection Hell+Accel is pretty fast and has a ton of bullets to boot, too.

[shoe-sama]

Sure there are. For instance, the recently released doujin named Zillion Beatz (look for it on the forum, there are download links there), play it on Super-hard, or better yet, Unbelievable difficulty. Good luck clearing the first level without bombing, though; it's bullshit hard like that. (And yeah, everything except the boss fights is pretty uninspired in that particlar game).
Blue Wish Resurrection Hell+Accel is pretty fast and has a ton of bullets to boot, too.

euroshmup mode

[moozooh]

Very much so, heh.

[sfried]

Which makes me wonder, are there danmakku shooters were bullet fly FAST?

Blue Wish Resurrection Hell+Accel is pretty fast and has a ton of bullets to boot, too.

No wonder. I played BWR and said to myself "Hey, why do I find a lesser popular doujin danmakku more enjoyable than Touhou?" But maybe it had something to do with the varying enemies and sizes, too. (Again, no insult to Team Shanghai Alice's franchise. Just a personal opinion.)

That said, I found most collectathon-esq shmups to be somehwat fustrating in danmakku games, unless and auto-collect fature is implemented. But somehow, I think that further complicates the flow, since your attention would shift between bullets, collect coins, fire again, bullets...limiting the amount of what a bullet hell shooter can present.

[ptoing]

Xed has quite fast bullets as well. But is not quite as danmaku.

I can enjoy the Touhou games, but only for so long. It kinda feels like walking in a huge croud that moves really slow, but is super dense and everyone wants to go the opposite way of you. I do not get any adrenaline rush from Touhou games, even when it gets difficult and I eventually die. It's just "Oh, I died."

Also the chatting bits are annoying and break gameflow imo and the enemy designs are as unvaried as it gets, even Kenta Cho games has more different looking enemies.

I'd rather play something with a bit faster bullets, and not Haldol Shmups.

[Veracity]

I was talking about the horrible "scene", weird fanfiction and "artwork".

Eh, sorry, I thought you were still on mechanics. Best bet in that case is definitely to avoid 'research' at all costs. I may be misremembering, but I don't recall My Little Pony ever being big on the dickgirl porn (and would be oh so grateful if anyone able to demonstrate otherwise keep it to themselves).

I don't like the games just because I don't find them fun[...]they like games that consist of 4 minute boss fights and scoring systems that depend entirely on whether the slow key is being held, I like stunt-man scoring systems and rooms with literally thousands of enemies and bullets going so fast you need to either have a sixth sense or good memory

Yep, this. Besides the global pointlessness of arguing taste, never mind arguing taste on the interwebs, I'd rarely put Touhou high on any hypothetical list of recommendations because I absolutely agree with two of the most common complaints about it (ridiculously slow, many attacks as much or more concerned with looking pretty as being interesting to avoid crashing into) - they just happen to be two of the reasons I like it. Recommending Touhou to someone who likes shooters is like recommending Nocturne to someone who likes JRPGs - there's a damned good chance they'll want to stab you for it later.

I don't even bear the fanbase (scene, fandom, call it what you will) any pronounced ill will, for the most part. They're not as hard to avoid/ignore as some suggest. All that sometimes seems a shame is that, considering the series' relatively high profile, it can be surprisingly hard to find much in the way of discussion about the games - everyone's polarized into chatting about which character could beat up which other character or has the cutest hat, or dismissing the whole thing out of hand.

Anyhow, gotta pack, heading up to Mars colony to foment revolution. First against the wall are folk who persist in calling Okami a game, never mind a heart-breaking work of staggering genius.

[HeLGeN-X]

Zillion Beatz anybody?

[moozooh]

Zillion Beatz anybody?

Yes, 6 posts above.

[dai jou bu]

I'm pretty much on the crowd that agrees with Touhou being uberly bland and generic in terms of the game system, but I have two contradictory statements to this:

1. Shoot the Bullet and Immaterial and Missing Power/Scarlet Weather Rhapsody

2. The setting is pretty cool. He can turn it into something with some sort of drama (PCB) or something completely off-kiltzer (IN)

I primarily hate danmaku shmups primarily because a lot of bullets fly slow and most of the time you're stuck looking at the bottom half of the screen most of the time (ie- you're pretty much guranteed that enemies will never jump you from behind because that is dishonorable), and a lot of the popular ones people praise place emhpasis on games based on Cave's DoDonpachi model and never on anything else that introduces interesting game mechanics (ie- Zero Gunner 2 [sorta], Mars Matrix, Ikaruga, Senko no Ronde, Trigger Heart Exelica, Suguri, etc.).

I understand the appeal to this subgenre, but I dislike it because people are still praising its basic concepts because Cave fans seem to be the most vocal demographic when it comes to shmups nowadays, and personally I don't care if there's subtle differences in scoring mechanics and danmaku patterns because they fail to do anything interesting compared to the games I mentioned in my previous paragraph.