My take on the "slow bullet" games' problem

[Zebra Airforce]

Or you could just play it. Ignoring score it isn't that challenging. Ignore the reflect device and it still isn't that challenging. They could've taken the bullet count much further.

They didn't want it to counterstop too fast.

[Ed Oscuro]

• very small hitbox (~5 or less pixels in diameter);

I come from the future. 5 pixels is nothing in doujin games - we actually call them n'he-le-he because Martians have replaced the Japanese - and we don't use pixels anymore, besides. Still get slowdown, though.

• while classic games usually foster reflex (and in many cases, memorization), most bullet hell games instead oriented towards precision

That's nice, but I'm not a precise person. You can take your precision and -

one argument i can understand from the people who dislike the newer school of design is that because the bullets are slow (the enemies, that is - funny how you can shoot 10x quicker than them!) you don't get the same sort of adrenaline. everything hangs on a knife edge.

That makes no sense. I thought you were talking about old style shmups when I first skimmed your post, and that didn't make sense either.

Let's try this: "Good shmups aren't limited by the price of your joystick or by your war twitch"

Wait, this is obvious.

I SAY GOODBYE TO THE SENATE TONIGHT.

The end.

[-Bridget-]

Wow, a good first post there.


I have to agree with alot of the stuff that is said....


For me, I definitely prefer the bullet-hell type games to the "normal" ones.

Dont like dealing with walls, and, despite being a Psikyo fan, dont like the type of attacks where you have to already know it's there in advance in order to dodge it. No matter how many times a game does that, it strikes me as just bad design.




And personally, I think these games provide PLENTY of adrenalin and chaos.....

But the problem as I see it is a little different, with that bit.


Mainly, it depends highly on the games you're playing.


FAR too many people judge everything by the dang Touhou games, and YET AGAIN Im going to say that I wish people would stop doing that. They're not bad, but they're not the be-all/end-all of bullet hell shmups.


I play alot of Cave's various games. And I can honestly say, there's no lack of adrenalin there if you want it.

If I want a real rush, I'll go play Mushi on Ultra. The total berserk chaos of that mode definitely keeps me on edge the whole time, AND fills the screen with crud. Or maybe Progear, where you sometimes get bullets that'll abruptly change directions or roll around or explode or other crazy things, in the middle of their flight, and you need to be able to react to their new trajectory, or something like that.


And in my opinion, games like this produce, I'll call it, a "threat level" that normal shmups just dont.


You can fling as many crazy fast bullets as you want at me in a normal game, but it'll NEVER feel as threatening/ominous/dangerous as level 4 of Mushi on Ultra, for example. The sheer amount of chaos, slowly closing in, that you must somehow deal with, can definitely be quite scary in a way that normal shmups just dont.



Also, one big problem with normal shmups that I always have, is that due to the high bullet speed, you dont get very many interesting patterns.... because too many of them are aimed directly at you, since if they ARENT, they're gone so fast you need not worry about them, often.

Or you get really damn annoying things like "snipers", which is another "bad design" aspect if you ask me.



Dont like walls, either. Some of the time, anyway, depends on the game though.



And it's not that the more traditional type shmup is bad to me.... I have many of them, and enjoy them, particularly some of the older ones like Zanac.


But the more recent, more chaotic ones, like Mushihime, DDP, Giga Wing, Radirgy, Shikigami no Shiro, all of those are always just plain gonna be more interesting. More impressive, too, for that matter.


There's just something about dodging all that crazy crap successfully that feels so much more SATISFYING than any other type of shmup could manage.



Well, there, that's my take on it, just to add fuel to the fire



A very interesting topic, though, to be sure, and a good read.

[Gungriffon Geona]

I hate Touhou for 2 major reasons: easy as hell, and it's basically the culmination of moe, which is short for "we can somehow classify character archetypes that are popular, let's make the same character design 50 times and change only small things. like, they're a vampire and have a paddleball and a teddybear and lollypop and etc etc etc" you get the idea. I mostly just hate them on principle because that sort of thing is idiotic. it would be bearable if the games really offered a decent challenge that, like has been stated, didn't punish you to hell and back for doing one thing awkward. it's a lose lose sort of situation.

[moozooh]

a decent challenge that, like has been stated, didn't punish you to hell and back for doing one thing awkward

This is a very mislead statement. Neither of Touhou games for Windows punish you this much for one mistake. Ikaruga and DDP (and any long chaining-oriented score system in general) are much better examples of that.

[VorpalEdge]

I hope you didn't just play the games once on easy or normal before saying they're "easy as hell."

[Gungriffon Geona]

if anything I find DDP and Ikaruga far more forgiving because I actually know why I screwed up. hell I find them harder because the bullet patterns can get pretty rediculous at points, and in DDP's case the bullets don't feel like you're waiting on something to happen, they're moving at a good pace that can allow for an "oh shit" reaction if you hadn't prepared yourself.
I also like to think that DDP and Ikaruga don't punish you for using your bombs or secondary weapon, atleast not nearly as bad as what I was experiencing when I was playing the touhou games. hell, at points
And I can't say I played the Touhou games on easy. to be honest I tried them at hard, and was like "huh, this is... shit why are the bullets taking forever?" and actually found it to numb my senses at how painless dodging really was. it became very apparent I wasn't going to have fun when the dodging was not very reflex centric, and more "left a little, right a little, sit in this safe spot, move around some, etc". doesn't really get me excited by the thought of doing that several times.

[PROMETHEUS]

They really make me want to see a mars matrix superplay.

Or you could just play it. Ignoring score it isn't that challenging. Ignore the reflect device and it still isn't that challenging. They could've taken the bullet count much further.

I'm not very interested, expecially if I don't have a superplay video to show me how to chain those cubes... Also, the MAME versions I have tried this game on have INCREDIBLE input lag. Is this normal ? Because I noticed there was a "maneuverability" statistic for each ship. I have no clue why they did that, it makes dodging the simplest things tedious when you're not used to it.

[louisg]

This is a really interesting topic. I'm not going to argue that shooters haven't been deeper and more fair than ever in recent years, but I will argue that it's not necessarily because they are bullet hell games. A lot of the complaints of old shooters so far on this thread apply almost exclusively to Toaplan-likes. But, there are a huge number of moderately paced games which do have more depth than the basic seat-of-your-pants gameplay-- for example, my favorite, RayForce.

I'd also dispute that bullets are interchangeable with other obstacles such as walls. Though bullet mazes do provide complex and interesting obstacles, in not very many games do they actually behave similarly to environmental hazards like walls. Other obstacles are also possible which do not appear in shot form such as gates, shootable tiles, or spinning ball/chain-like obstacles.

And non-manic games tend to concentrate more on a variety of less-abstract shot types (missiles, homing lasers, mines) and have more interaction with the background. I think this helps make the levels less monotonous.

I think that non-manic shooters still can evolve and grow; it's just that we haven't seen examples of that nearly enough.

[Rob]

I'm not very interested, expecially if I don't have a superplay video to show me how to chain those cubes... Also, the MAME versions I have tried this game on have INCREDIBLE input lag. Is this normal ?

DC version feels smooth, in MAME it felt a little slower. But I can't be 100% sure. Either way, I don't have a problem with it, just messes up the timing a little.

Chaining - some enemies drop cubes, but mostly you reflect bullets on the surface of something to make them. Smaller cubes = less time to collect the next one... 2 seconds?

[shoe-sama]

superplay video to show me how to chain those cubes...

http://www.super-play.co.uk/index.php?c ... 2&gameid=8

[Rob]

Go for the 150 mb one, he counterstopped that shit! It doesn't get any better than that.

[shoe-sama]

this mars matrix game looks easy

[-Bridget-]

I hate Touhou for 2 major reasons: easy as hell, and it's basically the culmination of moe, which is short for "we can somehow classify character archetypes that are popular, let's make the same character design 50 times and change only small things. like, they're a vampire and have a paddleball and a teddybear and lollypop and etc etc etc" you get the idea. I mostly just hate them on principle because that sort of thing is idiotic. it would be bearable if the games really offered a decent challenge that, like has been stated, didn't punish you to hell and back for doing one thing awkward. it's a lose lose sort of situation.

I think I have to agree, here, at least somewhat.


I dont completely dislike the games (I have a good 3 of them on this machine), but the problems you talk of are definitely there.


I'll 2nd the "easy" part, and note that games like this, I only play on Hard or Lunatic. If something like this isnt at least somewhat challenging I completely lose interest.....


Though, I think the thing about Touhou that bugs me the MOST is all of those people that just loooooove it, and ramble on about it and blah blah blah, and then you find out they've barely (if at all) actually PLAYED it, and only really like it cause of pretty girls. BAH to that.

I get SO sick of hearing about the games for that reason.

[320x240]

I think that non-manic shooters still can evolve and grow; it's just that we haven't seen examples of that nearly enough.

That is very true. I always used to hate the lack of bullets in shmups in the old days and now that I have returned to the genre I find that there is to many of them (and often to many of the same sort). Quite ironic really.

I would like to see a modern game with a more traditional approach, (fast, aimed shots etc.) but with a more elaborate bullet "setup". Cho Ren Sha has some of it and (parts of) the first few levels of Gigawing is nearly there.

In short, the older games feel a little empty, while the newer ones feel to crowded. There must be a middle way.

[PROMETHEUS]

I would like to see a modern game with a more traditional approach, (fast, aimed shots etc.) but with a more elaborate bullet "setup". Cho Ren Sha has some of it and (parts of) the first few levels of Gigawing is nearly there.

Mushi original ?

[Rob]

...Gradius V

[SockPuppetHyren]

I hate Touhou for 2 major reasons: easy as hell, and it's basically the culmination of moe, which is short for "we can somehow classify character archetypes that are popular, let's make the same character design 50 times and change only small things. like, they're a vampire and have a paddleball and a teddybear and lollypop and etc etc etc" you get the idea. I mostly just hate them on principle because that sort of thing is idiotic. it would be bearable if the games really offered a decent challenge that, like has been stated, didn't punish you to hell and back for doing one thing awkward. it's a lose lose sort of situation.

I think I have to agree, here, at least somewhat.


I dont completely dislike the games (I have a good 3 of them on this machine), but the problems you talk of are definitely there.


I'll 2nd the "easy" part, and note that games like this, I only play on Hard or Lunatic. If something like this isnt at least somewhat challenging I completely lose interest.....


Though, I think the thing about Touhou that bugs me the MOST is all of those people that just loooooove it, and ramble on about it and blah blah blah, and then you find out they've barely (if at all) actually PLAYED it, and only really like it cause of pretty girls. BAH to that.

I get SO sick of hearing about the games for that reason.

I feel your pain. It's not right for a person to consider themselves a fan of a series they haven't even played.

On the other hand, I probably wouldn't have heard about the games if it wasn't for it's overblown fandom, and as an art student, I can't really hate the game for having appeal outside of shmups nuts.

Of course, the fact that I not only suck at shmups; but I tend to refuse to bomb and restart on death helps the series gain point on my personal difficulty scale...

[PROMETHEUS]

I watched the Mars Matrix superplay. At first I thought it seemed very easy but then I realized by trying to do the same in the first stage that it's just very methodical in a pretty hard way I guess, but difficulty definitely does not seem to be in dodging bullets, rather in very precise movements and actions (shots and reflections) to get chains and herd bullets away... right ?

[Rob]

Yeah.

[PROMETHEUS]

But I thought you were one of the guys who hate DDP because they don't like strict chaining systems, and Mars Matrix is like all about executing a super strict string of actions ?

[shoe-sama]

Mars Matrix is much easier to chain at low and high levels of play

And there's always ways to milk more gold for bigger chain after getting a full stage chain (and thus multiplier)

Heck there's chaining strategies for the bosses too

[PROMETHEUS]

If it's much easier to chain and yet all about chaining then isn't it just incredibly easier as a whole... ?

Also, MM's stage 1 doesn't seem easier to chain to me at all than DDP's stage 1.

[indstr]

i'm still waiting for rob's superplay video of mars matrix without reflect because it's "not that hard without reflect"

[Arvandor]

Rob posted a video of him doing stage 5 & 6 with no reflect barrier. He did pretty good until the flower blossom pattern near the very end. It's definitely doable, and doesn't look NEARLY as difficult as loop 2 of most loopable games (heck, first loop DOJ is nastier than no-mosquito Mars Matrix). I don't think he was using the pierce cannon thing either, to make things even more interesting.

The thing about the Mars Matrix chaining system, is that it's very open ended and free-styleish. There are less places where you have to worry about doing them a particular way to avoid chain break. It is a lot easier on a whole though than even first loop DDP IMHO.

Now that I think about it though, there are a lot of similarities to Dodonpachi that does indeed make it more surprising Rob hates enemy chaining but not Mars Matrix chaining.

Also, MM's stage 1 doesn't seem easier to chain to me at all than DDP's stage 1.

You're right, it's not. Proper chain on stage 1 is much easier in DDP. And chaining stage 3 in MM is about as difficult to chain properly as DDP Stage 4, and cripples your score just about as bad if you don't do it right. Stage 4 is about as worthless for chaining in Mars Matrix as stage 3 in DDP, and stage 5 for both are "WOO FREE CHAIN FOR SURVIVING," except DDP has a couple tricky break points at the beginning and end of one section, whereas after the beginning of MM Stage 5, you'd have to try to screw up your chain.

[shoe-sama]

i dunno i was killing things and dropped my chain a lot in mm stage 5 lol

[Rob]

Now that I think about it though, there are a lot of similarities to Dodonpachi that does indeed make it more surprising Rob hates enemy chaining but not Mars Matrix chaining.

The influence is there but in practice it's very different. It's faster, and like you said - it's flexible, there are many ways of dealing with a stage. The speed, the bullet reflecting and working out strategy are my favorite parts. Enemy chaining doesn't add any layer I find appealing. It's just pure memorization to me.

Stage 4 is about as worthless for chaining in Mars Matrix as stage 3 in DDP, and stage 5 for both are "WOO FREE CHAIN FOR SURVIVING," except DDP has a couple tricky break points at the beginning and end of one section, whereas after the beginning of MM Stage 5, you'd have to try to screw up your chain.

Yeah, but another big difference between DDP and MM

-DDP is more about simply completing the chain, right?
-MM is about that and then maximizing the chain.

Like in stage 5 you have to stall a lot to cancel bullets at the right times, destroy certain enemies faster to get more.

[sfried]

Of course, the fact that I not only suck at shmups; but I tend to refuse to bomb and restart on death helps the series gain point on my personal difficulty scale...

I dunno. I only reset if I die way too often (for retreaded levels) than my usual alotted amount of tolerance in deaths. But I always save the bombs for difficult bosses and situations.

My qualm perhaps with Touhou is that they're too easy for veterans, too difficult for methodical shmupists, and add a boatload of penalties in score to create fake difficulty. That's not to mention that, until Mountain of Faith, playing entirely for survival; score secondary was not an option. You simply cannot "enjoy" the game; you have to "work" for it.

On the other hand, I probably wouldn't have heard about the games if it wasn't for it's overblown fandom, and as an art student, I can't really hate the game for having appeal outside of shmups nuts.

You should. They're in it simply to wank off to the Marisa and Alice doujin porn out there. It also gives doujin developers ideas that they could get away with poorly executed (even though they might be ambitious in their concept) design simply because it has moé.

Because of the way -Bridget- states it, I'm beginning to sympathize. I agree that it's not bad, but it's not the end-all-be-all of shooters like the fans would have you believe. It has a ton of problems and not everyone will end up liking it. Kinda like how not everyone will end up liking P.N.03. But it does deserve credit were credit is due, and that's at the Game Over screen.

[PROMETHEUS]

-DDP is more about simply completing the chain, right?
-MM is about that and then maximizing the chain.

Like in stage 5 you have to stall a lot to cancel bullets at the right times, destroy certain enemies faster to get more.

I would say yes, the value of a chain in DDP doesn't vary much if you are able to chain a whole stage. You can add a few hits to your chain by changing some details in your plan, but you can't really modulate it's value as much by moving a little differently or whatever.

The way I'm seeing it, in DDP, the chain of a stage is something you have to memorize in order to get points. The difficulty of a chain (and of a stage) is characterized mainly by what it forces you to weave through. If your pattern reading and navigating skills are high enough, you can make it and are allowed to make points.

So I guess enemy chaining is a little too simple and rigid in DDP for your tastes. I think what you actually like is chaining (you like methodical play), but DDP doesn't allow enough room, possibilities and complexity for chaining from a methodical player's point of view.

It's funny because before seeing Ikaruga played and explained by Fontaz and Powerfuran in Milan, whenever I found a methodical game's superplay, I thought the game had to be incredibly easy and memorizer-like because there is not much dodging at all. Now I realize it's wrong and they're just games that focus on different skills. They're easy from a manic point of view, but hard from a methodical point of view.

I think you're doing the exact same mistake when looking at manic games. I guess you're looking at the player barely doing a few moves to navigate through a pattern, and from a methodical point of view they are overly simple actions. But in truth, the player is reading really complex patterns and making up a path through them in his head every time he plays. Often the path you find through a pattern doesn't require you to make very complex moves, but what is hard is figuring out which exact moves you have to make, and/or doing them very accurately. Stuff like the last boss in futari are incredibly hard, even though it just looks like tap dodge to you. They're not memorized taps, you have to figure them out while you play.

[zdk]

agree very much with the above post.

A lot of touhou fanboys are exactly that, fanboys, but I don't think that that alone should put anyone off the games. just ignore them. If you still don't enjoy it thats fine too though, just a matter of taste.
the touhou fanatic fanatics are a bit creepy though i agree.

in any case, I still find hard/lunatic on touhou games challenging enough to be interesting to me. I mean, maybe its not as moment to moment adrenaline pumping as some of the CAVE games, or other shooters, but its a different kind of interesting I guess.
they're also the games that got me started on shmups so take that how you will.