My take on the "slow bullet" games' problem

[shoe-sama]

you can't just go into a fast game and beat it on the first try with no effort at all

a slow bullet game, unless it throws in surprise patterns that may take a few tries to figure out, will generally be easy to beat

[szycag]

Again, some Touhou games

Untrue, this only applies to a couple of the Touhou games.

[moozooh]

Care to elaborate?

Some attacks are too fast/sudden/unpredictable to be dodged on reflex alone. Often happens when the rank is too high.

[RHE]

you can't just go into a fast game and beat it on the first try with no effort at all

Some attacks are too fast/sudden/unpredictable to be dodged on reflex alone. Often happens when the rank is too high.

I see.

[Twiddle]

you can't just go into a fast game and beat it on the first try with no effort at all

Some attacks are too fast/sudden/unpredictable to be dodged on reflex alone. Often happens when the rank is too high.

I see.

There's nothing contradictory about those two statements.

[moozooh]

Indeed, there are moments where "effort" is simply not enough, and you have to script your actions, like "move here after the second bullet wave finishes, then move half a screen to the right to the blind spot, go behind the boss and wait the next attack over" (which sucks the fun out of a game pretty quickly, for me).

[RHE]

There's nothing contradictory about those two statements.

Where did I say they're contradictory?

[Twiddle]

There's nothing contradictory about those two statements.

Where did I say they're contradictory?

I thought you were being sarcastic. Disregard that post then

[PROMETHEUS]

Again, some Touhou games

Untrue, this only applies to a couple of the Touhou games.

[I'm Alec]

Stop thinking so much.

Sorry, not going to adopt this way of living however attractive it may look.

your loss.





























































IWIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IWIN(IWIN)(echo2fadeout)

[sfried]

The original poster is right.

One of the things I dislike about Touhou is the stack of penalties unless you're some sort of perfectionist god. On one hand, it's simplistic nature disguises the fact that you have to multitask in order to gain a decent score while on the other, it's what makes it completely antagonistic towards people without any prior experience to the series. Rather than encouraging the player, you have to fight the game in order to pass the next level, with no feeling of satisfaction on your behalf (because of said score and penalties implemented), therefore defeating the purpose of playing a game in order to have a good time.

Touhou's structure is elitist by nature. The amount of risk you put into a Touhou game yields very little reward. So even while danmakku games in general are all about precision, adding futher penalties makes the game counter-intuitive to it's simplistic design.

That said, I actually like some of Caves outing because they hand you various options for surviving at the expense not being able to score, therefore leaving the only blame to the player. But this could be justified since the player can learn scoring mechanics by this manner of setting ones own pace, as opposed to forcing you with an "all or nothing" penalty system.

[nimitz]

Well a smaller hitboxes and slower bullets means more possibilities in terms of pattern. The touhou games are really at the extreme end of the spectrum and I feel at this point its hard for developpers to keep intensity level. You have games like Dangun and the Raiden Fighters series on the oppisite end, wich are almost too intense to play for hours straight.

Its only a matter of game desing, few games are as slow as touhou(s) and few games are as fast as Dangun. But in the end a good game is alot more than the speed of bullets, its how refinded the gameplay is. The lack of intensity is a lot more than simply because the bullets are too slow.

[zdk]

I suck at shmups in general, and haven't really played that many.

I will say though, that it really just down to taste. I like touhou style games a lot, since I like the pretty intricate patterns. a lot of "faster" games feel more like, oh, more helicopters and tanks, and larger tanks and hey lets shoot a bunch of identical looking bullets straight at the player, and that doesn't feel so interesting to me, even though it may be harder overall.

thats just my preference though, why not have both types of games (and whatever other types people can come up with), and satisfy everyone?

[320x240]

Agree with nimitz. Out of all the bullet heavy games I take to Gigawing the most, probably because the vertizontal presentation, and the close proximity between the enemies and the player controlled ship it gives, help create a sense of urgency. I guess, because of this, the patterns are less elaborate too.

[Frederik]

Stop thinking so much.

Sorry, not going to adopt this way of living however attractive it may look.

I'm saving my brain cells for more important stuff.

Yeah. Like writing witty answer like that or what. The only intention of this post is to piss people off, and that´s one of the most pathetic things you can do with your time.

- A new skill is introduced or emphasized on : the ability to read patterns and find a path through them. I personally think it's the most fun and interesting part of STGs.

This is pretty much the reason why I play shmups. When I first saw Ikaruga, Psyvariar and DoDonpachi I was mesmerized with the multiple layers of bullets. I don´t think games like Raiden would have drawn me into the genre. Game like Touhou are TOO slow for me, on the other hand. Cave and later Raizing games are perfect for me (even though some people might say Batrider and such aren´t bullet hell, but COME ON).

[spadgy]

one argument i can understand from the people who dislike the newer school of design is that because the bullets are slow (the enemies, that is - funny how you can shoot 10x quicker than them!) you don't get the same sort of adrenaline. everything hangs on a knife edge.

Maybe because I've only played console and arcade 'manic' shmups, and not Touhou/doujin, but I find the new stuff gets my adrenaline going. Sure things like Raiden are damn fast, but I'd say manic stuff isn't that slow, but maybe that's because I haven't played any Doujin. Is it really lacking in pace or something?

[moozooh]

Well, seeing as Touhou is one of the most popular and distinctive doujin series out there, try playing any of them on Hard or Lunatic and see if you'll be able to cope with the bullet speed and/or density. Normal mode is somewhat easily manageable in any of them, but overall, difficulty decreases from 06 to 10, which are the Windows games (01—05 were done for PC98 platform).

[320x240]

To me "bullet hell"-games look and feel like a combination of the regular stages of older games and traditional boss fights. Rather than fighting one or a few enemies at a time like in more traditional games, you are in effect fighting the whole screen at any one time, just like in a boss fight. Of course you could always say that this is the case in a traditional shmup too, but not in the same "concentrated" way. No wonder certain modern games have mostly boss fights then - it's a natural evolution.

I used to hate boss fights in shmups, but now I have learnt to like them. Maybe I will eventually learn to like "bullet hell"-games too..?

That said, I'd rather ride my bike (traditional shmups) than take up needlework (bullet hell shmups).

[moozooh]

Rather than fighting one or a few enemies at a time like in more traditional games, you are in effect fighting the whole screen at any one time, just like in a boss fight.

You have as well described Space Invaders, the first bullet hell game. ;)

[320x240]

You have as well described Space Invaders, the first bullet hell game.

So that's where shmups went wrong!

[lgb]

Whee. I've always seen Touhou as made the way it is for two reasons: to provide some sort of calm before some storm, and to confuse you slightly. Not to say it should confuse you; it just sometimes happens. Honestly, I see no reason why Cave and Psikyo players swear Touhou sucks, when often it seems... the same. You move about as much in a Cave game (using DDP as a reference) sometimes. Can't say much though.

Or well, the only "dangerous" game I've really seen is Mars Matrix.

That's fun!

[indstr]

mars matrix is so insane it makes my head assplode

[Udderdude]

Whee. I've always seen Touhou as made the way it is for two reasons: to provide some sort of calm before some storm, and to confuse you slightly. Not to say it should confuse you; it just sometimes happens. Honestly, I see no reason why Cave and Psikyo players swear Touhou sucks, when often it seems... the same. You move about as much in a Cave game (using DDP as a reference) sometimes. Can't say much though.

Personally I can't stand Touhou. Somehow a game full of dolls spewing a zillion bullets doesn't seem too appealing. I get no satisfaction from actually succeeding. And bosses that are so tiny I can hardly aim at them through a shitstorm of bullets is annoying, too.

Cave got it right in ESP Ra.De. One level with annoying dolls, everything else = tanks and stuff

[Rob]

Or well, the only "dangerous" game I've really seen is Mars Matrix.

If you hold the shoot button down you can make bullets disappear.

[PROMETHEUS]

They really make me want to see a mars matrix superplay. I especially like the hilarious argument "you don't move much to dodge in manic !!! it's tap dodge! EASY".

[Arvandor]

And bosses that are so tiny I can hardly aim at them through a shitstorm of bullets is annoying, too.

Starting in Perfect Cherry Blossom, there's a little marker at the bottom of the screen that shows where the boss is, allowing you to keep an eye on boss position while also keeping an eye on bullets.

I'm a Cave AND Psikyo fan, and STILL like the Touhou games a lot. They're not my favorites by any stretch, but I do enjoy them a great deal. And hard mode (arcade mode, effectively) is not so easy, even with the high rate of extends and bombs. I'd load PCB up on my USB drive and play it some more, but I'm too busy with Dodonpachi =)

I must concede though, the scoring system isn't exactly compelling.

[shoe-sama]

And bosses that are so tiny I can hardly aim at them through a shitstorm of bullets is annoying, too.

Starting in Perfect Cherry Blossom, there's a little marker at the bottom of the screen that shows where the boss is, allowing you to keep an eye on boss position while also keeping an eye on bullets.

who cares the bosses conveniently fly in front of you and gets killeds

[Twiddle]

They really make me want to see a mars matrix superplay. I especially like the hilarious argument "you don't move much to dodge in manic !!! it's tap dodge! EASY".

manic is a pretty bad term to use for games with lots of bullets because the game can be manic while not using many, ie the raiden fighters series

the opposite is also true for bullet hell games, like touhou

[DarkMoon]

This was a very interesting read!! Thanks for posting about this. I myself love shmups from all varietys old and newschool. I play them all and love them all for many platforms.

I can understand why their is a debate between the two though. That debate does not reach far to me though because in the end. A great game is a great game. A great game to me might not be one to you. Or vise-versa

[Rob]

They really make me want to see a mars matrix superplay.

Or you could just play it. Ignoring score it isn't that challenging. Ignore the reflect device and it still isn't that challenging. They could've taken the bullet count much further.