My take on the "slow bullet" games' problem

[moozooh]

There is a number of players who are opposed to "bullet hell", which we'll define here as the manic approach currently adopted by Cave and some other developers (including a lot of doujinmakers), which is characterised by:

• very small hitbox (~5 or less pixels in diameter);

• high bullet count (from dozens to hundreds on screen at the same time);

• relatively slow bullet speed and large amount of spam as opposed to quick aimed shots.

The problem as expressed by the proponents of the classic approach is:

• "the bullets are so slow the player can react to them any time, so such games are inherently easier";

• "the attacks don't require the player to move around, one only needs to move a couple pixels sideways each time".

The accusations seem true from the classic shooter game paradigm, because the players trained on such games inevitably try to apply the same approach to the bullet hell games, and encounter obvious discrepancies between what happens on the screen, and what they want to happen there.

What adds to the injury is the fact that vast majority of bullet hell games suffer from some exploits in scoring or survival mechanics, or have their standard difficulty settings toned down compared to the classic games, which is especially evident looking at doujins. A good example is Touhou series, where hard mode is what actually corresponds to "standard" arcade difficulty (and lunatic is close to second loop in this context), and there is a whole lot of extends and bombs granted to the player, allowing for huge endgame bonuses for survival alone.

However, if we discard the classic paradigm as the reference point when appraising the properties of bullet hell shmups, this is what this approach itself allows us:

• reducing the hitbox size allows for moving the action to a smaller scale, effectively increasing the "resolution" of the playing field without having to increase the display resolution (in other words, the player is often forced to do the amount of dodging equal to a classic game, but on a patch of a hundred square pixels as opposed to an area that takes half a screen);

• instead of putting "tangible" obstacles on the level map, bullets can be used as such, giving nearly unlimited possibilities for restricting player's movement;

• slowing down bullet speed allows for introducing multiple trajectories with the player being able to account to them;

• spamming walls and mazes of bullets forces the player to figure out paths through them, as opposed to dodging around them by means of reflex alone (which is pretty simple in case with straight sniper shots; a blind move sideways is guaranteed to put you out of the bullet's way);

• while classic games usually foster reflex (and in many cases, memorization), most bullet hell games instead oriented towards precision and playing with danger (the concept of grazing/buzzing comes from here).

Another point that is often being argued about in regards to survival difficulty in bullet hell games comes from the fact that, while a lot of them is easy to survive, they require a lot of risk for player to be put through to achieve an above-average score. Not only it usually requires no-missing/no-bombing the entire game (with all those abundant extends and bombs pouring in), but also doing some other dangerous maneuver (grazing/buzzing is a good example of this). As such, an otherwise easy game may look look absolutely different in a playthrough done for a high score attempt, suddenly requiring a lot more precision, reflex, and strategic planning. Again, some Touhou games (Perfect Cherry Blossom and Imperishable Night, for instance) can illustrate this point pretty well: the WR-class score playthroughs look nowhere near an average one, and they often rely on clever tricks and intense grazing. Not only they require the player to not die or bomb where it hurts the score, they often prohibit them to even use slow shot that helps navigating bullet clusters, stripping all the advertised easiness off the gameplay. Unfortunately, I don't have the superplays handy to illustrate the point, but I hope it won't be needed.

This is something I would like classic game proponents to consider when arguing about classic vs. bullet hell approaches. Both have their merits, and it's obvious that after being used to one, one won't be properly accomodated for another. In other words, love and peace!

[JoshF]

I agree with your defenses, but I would add as a criticism that non-obvious hitbox is bad design.

[jpj]

one argument i can understand from the people who dislike the newer school of design is that because the bullets are slow (the enemies, that is - funny how you can shoot 10x quicker than them!) you don't get the same sort of adrenaline. everything hangs on a knife edge.

[moozooh]

I agree with your defenses, but I would add as a criticism that non-obvious hitbox is bad design.

Non-obvious as in "not matching the size of the sprite"? I actually don't think large hitboxes is good design period; after all, even Gradius had a hitbox smaller than the sprite. Then again, I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's not exclusive to bullet hell games, seeing as pretty much every popular title released in mid-90s or later (including stuff by Psikyo, Seibu and other non-bullet-hell shmup developers) was made with hitboxes smaller than sprites as well.

[320x240]

• instead of putting "tangible" obstacles on the level map, bullets can be used as such, giving nearly unlimited possibilities for restricting player's movement;

Always a bad idea in a vert - that's what horiz are for...

[320x240]

you don't get the same sort of adrenaline.

That's my beef with modern shmups. It's a different kind of intensity.

[moozooh]

Always a bad idea in a vert - that's what horiz are for... :wink:

I didn't say it should be used as such — but could if there was any need. Examples include Ikaruga's the Stone-like, and Mushihime-sama & Futari, where you are often separated by literal walls of bullets.

[JoshF]

Non-obvious as in "not matching the size of the sprite"? I actually don't think large hitboxes is good design period; after all, even Gradius had a hitbox smaller than the sprite. Then again, I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's not exclusive to bullet hell games, seeing as pretty much every popular title released in mid-90s or later (including stuff by Psikyo, Seibu and other non-bullet-hell shmup developers) was made with hitboxes smaller than sprites as well.

With Gradius I have a better idea where I don't want to be hit. The outline of a sprite is a better cue than a 2x2 pixel area obscured within a sprite (or worse, a polygon.)

[Rob]

• instead of putting "tangible" obstacles on the level map, bullets can be used as such, giving nearly unlimited possibilities for restricting player's movement;

Almost all developers just go for more elaborate patterns, shots, typical bullet stuff. When you look at levels like SnSII's 3-1 (and the boss with the closing walls) or Gradius V you can see there is still something to occasionally having actual walls and static obstacles. They can be used as shields for one thing.

There's also such a thing as hitboxes that are too small (ship and bullet), which I think is a problem. More variety couldn't hurt.

[PROMETHEUS]

I like your approach on this.

• while classic games usually foster reflex (and in many cases, memorization), most bullet hell games instead oriented towards precision and playing with danger (the concept of grazing/buzzing comes from here).

Well, I think what you describe as classic games, when they are hard, require memorization, reflexes and precision.
With danmaku :
- Memorization is still heavily required, obviously, which isn't really a good thing imo but whatever, STGs kind of have to be that way.
- Precision is still very important, some harder moves must probably be done just as accurately as in the harder parts of some classic games (not far from pixel perfect).
- A new skill is introduced or emphasized on : the ability to read patterns and find a path through them. I personally think it's the most fun and interesting part of STGs.
- Reflexes are still present because you can still be shot at point blank, and also because when playing patterns that are hard for you, you will often notice bullets coming into your hitbox not long before they actually hit you, so you need to react fast.

I personally see danmaku as a clear evolution from the old school style of shooters. They seem to take more skill and to be more interesting overall, to me.

[Erinu]

• "the attacks don't require the player to move around, one only needs to move a couple pixels sideways each time".

It's the same when it comes to games that aren't "bullet hell", like Raiden. Would you rather have a predictable bullet pattern which you can get past, or would you rather be shot in the face by a tank which you missed bottom-right of Raiden II?

Again, some Touhou games (Perfect Cherry Blossom and Imperishable Night, for instance) can illustrate this point pretty well: the WR-class score playthroughs look nowhere near an average one, and they often rely on clever tricks and intense grazing. Not only they require the player to not die or bomb where it hurts the score, they often prohibit them to even use slow shot that helps navigating bullet clusters, stripping all the advertised easiness off the gameplay. Unfortunately, I don't have the superplays handy to illustrate the point, but I hope it won't be needed.

Untrue, this only applies to a couple of the Touhou games. Mountain of Faith doesn't give you any special bonus for being unfocused, but PCB does (increases your Cherry meter). And that's entirely dependent on the character you're using. Most of the time in Imperishable Night you're not going to be unfocused for score, but rather to get to certain places, or because the unfocused character does more damage (Youmu for example).

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

I have the answer you're looking for!















































































Stop thinking so much.

[moozooh]

Untrue, this only applies to a couple of the Touhou games. Mountain of Faith doesn't give you any special bonus for being unfocused, but PCB does (increases your Cherry meter).

Learn to read and not skim through the text, for chrissakes. >_< FYI, I put words like "some" and "often" there, where you intepreted them as "all" and "always" to make your point.

Most of the time in Imperishable Night you're not going to be unfocused for score, but rather to get to certain places, or because the unfocused character does more damage (Youmu for example).

Shows your knowledge of the game.

Stop thinking so much.

Sorry, not going to adopt this way of living however attractive it may look. :P

[MathU]

I would argue that bullet maze shoot 'em ups usually require more memorization than fast bullet shoot 'em ups, not the other way around.

[moozooh]

They almost never require more memorization on average, unless you're talking about specific shortcuts or strategies in regards to solving patterns. The reason fast games are more heavy on memory is that entire reason: they're fast. While memorization comes into play pretty much only when you are trying to score in case with bullet hell games, with classic games it does so already on the survival stage. Play a game like Gunbird 2, and try to count the attacks that you need to know about beforehand to be able to dodge. Or a game like R-Type, that goes without saying.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Stop thinking so much.

Sorry, not going to adopt this way of living however attractive it may look.

I'm saving my brain cells for more important stuff.

[Erinu]

Shows your knowledge of the game.

Ahahaha, what? I've 1cc'd Imperishable Night on Lunatic. You were generalising Imperishable Night's unfocused scoring (which is still untrue as you don't need to constantly be unfocused, only unfocused for time orb collection or pre-cards time orb farming). Generalising one of the games as a whole, when not every bullet hell game is the same, is pointless.

Shows your knowledge of the Touhou series.

[Arvandor]

In regards to the adrenaline rush, I definitely agree when it comes to Touhou, but with the likes of Cave bullet hell stuff, I get quite the rush out of them. Moreso than in fast thin bullet games like Psikyo stuff.

[moozooh]

Ahahaha, what? I've 1cc'd Imperishable Night on Lunatic.

What's your score, again?

You were generalising Imperishable Night's unfocused scoring (which is still untrue as you don't need to constantly be unfocused, only unfocused for time orb collection or pre-cards time orb farming). Generalising one of the games as a whole, when not every bullet hell game is the same, is pointless.

Shows your knowledge of the Touhou series.

Learn to read.

[Erinu]

I did read. And I corrected you. And you don't like it, so you're avoiding it and pretending like I haven't read your page-long essay which is, in its entirety, whining about the aesthetics in a specific type of sub-genre.

Stop being so butthurt. You really don't know shit about Touhou.

[moozooh]

How do you correct someone by pointing out flaws coming from your own inability to comprehend what's written? Seems like a useful ability.

[Erinu]

Still avoiding. Keep it up.

[JoshF]

gamefaqs

[Erinu]

Nice try, but no.

[JoshF]

It's a legitimate contention.

[PROMETHEUS]

tbh re-reading moozooh's post and yours I think he's right, you should read again ^^

[Erinu]

I just did, and guess what? My points still stand. Now you can "you didn't read the original post even though you did" all you want, because that's a great way of avoiding how to properly respond to someone, as I can clearly see that someone here (couldn't possibly be the original poster, oh no) isn't mature enough to deal with confrontational factoids pointing out the holes in his whining.

[Udderdude]

I think the best solution is to add different game modes, like Mushi. That way everyone is happy.

I also added different game modes to my shooter game, although they are in an extras menu.

[Twiddle]

I just did, and guess what? My points still stand. Now you can "you didn't read the original post even though you did" all you want, because that's a great way of avoiding how to properly respond to someone, as I can clearly see that someone here (couldn't possibly be the original poster, oh no) isn't mature enough to deal with confrontational factoids pointing out the holes in his whining.

delicious irony

[RHE]

The reason fast games are more heavy on memory is that entire reason: they're fast.

Care to elaborate?