Is Type-x gonna kill off Naomi?

gingerj · Post by **gingerj** » Tue May 03, 2005 10:03 am

So with the Naomi board in my eyes bringing some of the best shooters to date on the board. Now with Type-X gathering really good shmup support (Cave, Skonec, Treasure, Psyiko and Warashi) does this spell the end for the Naomi/2/GD-ROM support? Which will end most probably the dreams of dc gamers with no more shooter ports.

Your thoughts?

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Tue May 03, 2005 10:26 am

In my opinion shooters are not as much dependant on a platform as other genre's might be.

I mean, Cave could bring a game out on Atomiswave, Neo geo or whatever and it would not be discriminated in the same way as say a fighter would be.

The only reason Naomi will be dropped is if production costs to support it are more than the next system.

I would rather prefer companies to adopt system246, chirhiro or that Gamecube variant for 1-1 translations to the home than a specialist arcade system that would take a 3rd party to port. Just seems like a labor of love to me.

Skyline · Post by **Skyline** » Tue May 03, 2005 10:43 am

I wouldn't see why, other than hardware age, the Type-X should be considered the NAOMI-Killer.

The visual capabilites of the NAOMI board are still competent by today's standards.

ill6 · Post by **ill6** » Tue May 03, 2005 12:06 pm

At the moment Naomi is much cheaper and most arcades already have a Naomi setup so I think its around for a little while.

No arcade hardware lasts forever and Naomi has had a very long run compared to most (Neo Geo aside). It might have the second largest catalog after the Neo?

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Tue May 03, 2005 1:00 pm

NO!

btw, Sega is rumoured to show it's new arcade board (already announce last year) at 3 "Sega private shows" near the end of this month. Shows to be held in Tokyo (may 20), Osaka (may 24) and Fukuoka (may 26).

Naomi 3? Or perhaps (more likely imo) an all new board!?

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Tue May 03, 2005 1:10 pm

I think the Naomi is gonna be around a while for awhile for the reasons others said. Some companies like GRev are still using it because it's cheap and easy to use. Senko No Ronde is going to get DC port according to Kron who has info from Grev themselves. And their upcoming helicopter shmup Under Defeat is on Naomi, so maybe a DC disc for that one too.

But if you want ports from other companies like Cave, Seibu, Warashi, Psikyo/XNaughts then you will want to invest in an import PS2 of course.

ill6 · Post by **ill6** » Tue May 03, 2005 1:24 pm

And another thing!!! Naomi 2 has been out for some time but games keep on being released for the Naomi. Maybe we have got to the point where an arcade machine doesn't need to be more powerful than a Dreamcast to run a shooter.

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Tue May 03, 2005 1:45 pm

ill6 wrote:And another thing!!! Naomi 2 has been out for some time but games keep on being released for the Naomi. Maybe we have got to the point where an arcade machine doesn't need to be more powerful than a Dreamcast to run a shooter.

The Naomi set up is better for shooters if just for the fact it's more reliable and won't crash like type X sometimes does. It will be interestingalso to see what we get from the Naomi 3 set up Sammy announced recently.

ill6 · Post by **ill6** » Tue May 03, 2005 2:25 pm

Certainly true, Naomi is tried and tested.

Off topic but I am disappointed in that other "Naomi" killer, the Atomiswave.

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Tue May 03, 2005 2:33 pm

ill6 wrote: Off topic but I am disappointed in that other "Naomi" killer, the Atomiswave.

Yeah, but who isn't dissapointed with it (or rather the lack of support and decent titles...)!?
Still I'd like to see a Dolphin Blue port to PS2 or DC (though as you all know I'd prefer a DC port!

).

gingerj · Post by **gingerj** » Tue May 03, 2005 2:42 pm

AW doesn't have any real quality titles on it and with this new peice of hardware coming it seems like they've given up on it already....Blame the lineup of titles.... Maximum Speed/Faster Than Speed looked as generic as you can get for an arcade racer, Premier Eleven isn't a match for the winning eleven machines, ranger mission *yawn* and wheres metal slug 6?!?!

highlandcattle · Post by **highlandcattle** » Tue May 03, 2005 2:43 pm

well lets do a count in upcomming shooters
Naomi:
Senko no ronde
Under defeat
Rajirugi

TypeX:
Raiden 3
Homura

Think the Naomi is still kicking it.
I don't know hwhere people think that cave would make TypeX game sure they've signed up for a dev board but that's it probably.

Kron · Post by **Kron** » Tue May 03, 2005 3:19 pm

gingerj wrote:AW doesn't have any real quality titles on it and with this new peice of hardware coming it seems like they've given up on it already....Blame the lineup of titles.... Maximum Speed/Faster Than Speed looked as generic as you can get for an arcade racer, Premier Eleven isn't a match for the winning eleven machines, ranger mission *yawn* and wheres metal slug 6?!?!

The new piece of hardware isn't a replacement its a high end system that will sell alongside the AW (which is the cost effective option).

Premier Eleven was never released it was simply a showcase title for the TGS.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Tue May 03, 2005 3:32 pm

I don't know hwhere people think that cave would make TypeX game sure they've signed up for a dev board but that's it probably.

Ibara is Type X.

brand1bil · Post by **brand1bil** » Tue May 03, 2005 3:41 pm

Neon wrote:
I don't know hwhere people think that cave would make TypeX game sure they've signed up for a dev board but that's it probably.
Ibara is Type X.

Sure about that? It's not distributed by Taito (I think it's AMI) and it's not listed on the Type-X site.

Kron · Post by **Kron** » Tue May 03, 2005 3:43 pm

I don't think Ibara is type X, It looks like its on the same SH3 system as Mushi.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Tue May 03, 2005 3:43 pm

Seems I was wrong upon googling

I was pretty sure someone had told me that though

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue May 03, 2005 3:52 pm

highlandcattle wrote:well lets do a count in upcomming shooters
Naomi:
Senko no ronde
Under defeat
Rajirugi

TypeX:
Raiden 3
Homura

Shikigami 3. The more established companies are working on Type X.

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Tue May 03, 2005 3:59 pm

Rob wrote:The more established companies are working on Type X.

I've always been anti-establishment so where does this leave me!?

Homura looks nice, but not at all as a game which couldn't be done on Naomi!
Same goes for Raiden III!

ill6 · Post by **ill6** » Tue May 03, 2005 4:23 pm

Kron wrote:I don't think Ibara is type X, It looks like its on the same SH3 system as Mushi.

Interestingly Cave have always published on standalone boards and not on system boards. Even when they were using a system like PGM.

gingerj · Post by **gingerj** » Tue May 03, 2005 4:42 pm

highlandcattle wrote:well lets do a count in upcomming shooters
Naomi:
Senko no ronde
Under defeat
Rajirugi

I know under defeat is erm that Helicopter title made by G.Rev but what are teh other two are their any screenies?
Thank you please....

Three new DC ports perhaps? I also heard the makes of Trizeal might be making a new one is well...

highlandcattle wrote: TypeX:
Raiden 3
Homura

Aren't Gigawing Generations and Shikigami no Shiro 3 on type x hardware also?

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Tue May 03, 2005 5:20 pm

Interestingly Cave have always published on standalone boards and not on system boards. Even when they were using a system like PGM.

Progear is on CPS2.

Concerning the original thread question, I fear there is a reasonable chance that Type-X will become the leading platform despite all its flaws and despite the fact that Naomi would be sufficient - based on one very simple but strong reason: development costs. Shmups aren´t exactly pushing modern hardware, but they still require some optimization, and this optimization takes time to code, time which has to be paid for. This is the ONLY reason the GWG port turned out so bad, it´s not like PS2 couldn´t handle it, but as the arcade version was developed without any optimization, being unnecessary for a strong hardware like Type-X, they didn´t want to invest the effort simply because they figured that a higher quality couldn´t boost sales enough to make it worthwile.
Type X isn´t only powerful, it´s also PC hardware, and no other platform can compete with the PC when it comes to development tools. All the problems of PC development related to unknown target hardware disappear when developing for Type X, and that´s a very attractive option for developers.

zyloj · Post by **zyloj** » Tue May 03, 2005 5:42 pm

Until now, I'm seeing Type-X as a platform with a supposed high hardware power but with low quality graphics in comparison with Naomi shmups. Games like Gigawing generations or Homura looks worst than Senko no ronde or Under defeat, made in an older and less powered board.
Type-X developers should improve visuals to justify the inversion for a new system in arcades. Perhaps they don't have good developing tools, they are not very skilled or take very short times in programming and designing their games...

By the way, if I'm not wrong, Cave signed as developer for this system, but they also was Naomi devs and they made nothing for it. Will occur the same now?

ill6 · Post by **ill6** » Tue May 03, 2005 6:35 pm

[quote="raiden"][Progear is on CPS2.[quote]

Good point... And I have the PCB and was playing it last night!!! Losing my mind!

icepick · Post by **icepick** » Tue May 03, 2005 8:23 pm

Whoa, whoa whoa whoa. Saying that Type X will win in the end because developers won't have to optimize their code is bologna--The system would surely fail if that was the case. Slapping a faster processor in there to make up for sloppy code would not be the way to fly (though the capability makes sense in this scenario), and eventually the system would be completely inadequate and either the developers or the hardware engineers would have to start over.

Developers simply need to become familiar with a platform to produce best results. Programmers are used to optimizing their code, and even if their superiors tell them that there's no time and that the product must ship, they'll still learn from the situation and implement more-optimized code in their next release.

NAOMI is a mature platform, and I'm certain that when Type X is mature, we'll be seeing impressive titles on there as well. Giga Wing Generations was the first out the gate, and in this particular instance it was probably a case of cutting expenses to get the game out the door (both for arcade and consumer). As many have speculated, future titles will likely be launched more smoothly.

Additionally... Not that all arcade game developers and publishers care for home ports, but a situation where unoptimized code was being released as finished to the arcade would result in either needing to use those resources up anyway to produce a proper home port, or even worse home ports, or none at all. I really hope that this doesn't happen.

Type X seems to have a bit more initial support than the Atomiswave, but the latter also seems to be going through slight rejuvenation, so it probably won't be any one system that lets NAOMI go home to start a family -- Especially if Sega's launching a new high-end platform.

There certainly are a lot of projects going for NAOMI at current, though. I'm impressed!

Anyway, in my opinion, Homura looks pretty nice. I also noticed Raiden III's texture quality to the extent that it almost looks out-of-place, given what I'm used to. I wonder; Do these Type X games feel as though they're being played on a PC, in the arcade? That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but you have to admit that there are little nuances. I know that it doesn't necessarily matter with upgradeable processors, but the ATI has certain hardware effects and capabilities. The same goes for other arcade hardware (unless I'm mistaken), and home consoles for that matter. Using these already-present "free" hardware effects and capabilities will give software a certain look and feel, so Type X games must naturally share some traits with PC games.

Also... Does it actually run a derivative of Windows XP? I would think that if the storage is a swappable HDD, then developers could basically use their own boot loader and run their software directly communicating with the hardware (instead of going through Windows and all of its unnecessary/unoptimized code). That would make sense to me, and I would definitely prefer it. Things would be more like simply a new kind of arcade hardware, instead of an actual PC.

Looking forward to Shikigami no Shiro III. That one will probably turn out great, given Alfa System's experience with the PC platform.

gingerj: Senko no Ronde is the new title by G.rev which was just released to arcades, and Radilgy is the next title by MileStone (Chaos Field).

UnscathedFlyingObject · Tue May 03, 2005 8:33 pm

NAOMI read backwards is IMOAN...

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Wed May 04, 2005 2:13 am

UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:NAOMI read backwards is IMOAN...

That could be either a moan of pleasure or a moan of disgust.

Before this thread gets derailed because of that statement, I heard that Treasure bought the license to make games on Type-X. I'm not too sure if this is true or not.

jp · Post by jp » Wed May 04, 2005 2:20 am

Treasure is making Type-X games?

Treasure is making arcade games?

There's some news.

And yes, the established developers are working with type X, but it seems the good developers are still on with the Naomi.

Zhon · Post by **Zhon** » Wed May 04, 2005 5:29 am

Ikaruga was an arcade game...

Plus, sloppy code (well, "sloppy" isn't the word for it, but quickly-implemented, more like) is the way to go nowadays. With more complex features and powerful hardware, the time spent optimizing isn't worth it - the days of the superefficient code are left to the demo scene.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Wed May 04, 2005 6:08 am

I was under the impression that shmups relied heavily on design rather than technical figures and graphics. Some of the best selling shooters in recent times have sold because they have a design edge rather than a technical one.

Therefore why not just stick to the tried and tested hardware.