I thought I was getting decent at shooters, and then...

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moozooh
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Post by moozooh »

indstr wrote:if it behaved this way, it would mean it's not completely random. it's based on some kind of calculation... even if the calculation it does is arbitrary
Of course it's not random, basically every game uses player input as the source of entropy when permutating the "randomness" seed. It's also why luck manipulation is possible in tool-assisted speedruns, and everything syncs perfectly.

There's no such thing as "arbitrary calculation" in a game's code, simply because the game should be told what and how to calculate. This is what seed is. Then you add human factor, and in the result, "randomness". The game's engine stays deterministic at all times. If the replay desyncs, it's either a problem with emulation, or with movie recording engine.
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Matskat wrote:This neighborhood USED to be nice...until that family of emulators moved in across the street....
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Arvandor
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Post by Arvandor »

PROMETHEUS wrote:That sounds ok to me. When I had played 150 hours I was barely starting to play A-L and to learn chains. Probably I was learning the Stage 2 chain. I probably died in stage 3 pretty often as well and I remember my high score was 72M when I had played 200 hours. So you're doing quite well since you're not even practicing with save states.

Dodonpachi is a hard game that takes serious skill after all. That also means these times can be reduced a lot if you are good at another danmaku game before starting to play it :p

Anyway, Stage 4 can be bitchy in some places if you aren't doing exactly what you should AND trying to chain. I realized quite late I had a very risky path at the second white tank that comes out of a building in my chain and died there 1/3 of the time. A very simple modification (moving downward a little more) turned it into 95% success. The worst stage for that kind of shit is stage 6 : better know your way f00kin precisely there.
Well, that makes me feel better at least. As well as re-reading through this thread. My lack of progress over the last week or two is kind of disparaging, but I've made LOTS of progress in the past month and half or two. Once I can semi-consistantly make it to stage 6 on one credit with no bombs I will be VERY happy. I won't worry about chaining stage 6 for a LONG time, but surviving it is actually easier than stage 5 =P The stage 6 boss isn't too bad either aside from his last pattern, which fucks me up in a big way.

I have greater difficulty with stage 3 than stage 4 (even when trying to chain stage 4, which I rarely succeed at, but can do in theory). And it's not just at any single trouble spot in 3 either, I die all over the place, seems very VERY random. Which is part of the frustration; as its not a special difficult spot that's killing me, just random stupidity on my part. Maybe I'm just too complacent during stage 3, where at stage 4 I start really paying attention, trying to chain, and perhaps the enhanced focus just makes it feel easier. I dunno.

I've also improved greatly at stage 5, but there's still one part at the VERY END of the really difficult part that I end up getting trapped (unless I luck dodge through somehow). It's right at/before the second blue turret dies. For some reason that last bit just seems much MUCH more thickly filled with bullets. That or I'm doing something wrong. Maybe after work I'll use Wolfmame at home to record an INP and you can laugh at me and/or give me tips =P
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PROMETHEUS
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

to indstr : you clearly don't understand what randomness is.

to Arvandor : if you're interested I found out one or two safe spots for stage 1-5 boss making it very very very easy to pass. There is almost nothing to dodge at all there (which sucks btw).
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Arvandor
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Post by Arvandor »

I don't really have troubles with the stage 1-5 boss, and I already know of two safe-spots, I don't need more of them >_<

It's that damned giant rectangular turret area before the part with the base streaming out the orange tank, big blue tank, orange tank pattern. I just get cornered by spam from popcorn enemies.
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MX7
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Post by MX7 »

moozooh wrote: game uses player input as the source of entropy
lol contradiction
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PROMETHEUS
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

Arvandor wrote:It's that damned giant rectangular turret area before the part with the base streaming out the orange tank, big blue tank, orange tank pattern. I just get cornered by spam from popcorn enemies.
Try to do it like I told you in the old DDP thread. If you want, you can send me an inp and I'll take a look to see if you're using the method properly.
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Arvandor
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Post by Arvandor »

I don't do well with written instructions for something like a shooter -_^ So I still just kind of wing it and figure it out slowly. I think I've figured out part of my problem, and have one-life no bombed that part a couple times now (on max rank no less). I think I was going too far up and to the side during each sweep and was letting a lot of those small tanks that come in from the bottom sides survive, and THEY were the ones producing the nigh undodgable bullet spam. Now I seem to do pretty okay if I don't misstime a sweep and make the large turrets fire their cluster bullets down the middle or something nasty like that.
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Hardstepah
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Post by Hardstepah »

EOJ wrote:And did someone actually say Mars Matrix is in the same league as DDP: DOJ in terms of difficulty? :lol: LMAO

i have a much harder time with mars matrix than i do DDP DOJ, i can easily get to stage 4's boss without dying on DOJ, i cant get to the 3rd boss of mars matrix without a continue. i dunno, MM is just harder for me i guess.
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indstr
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Post by indstr »

PROMETHEUS wrote:to indstr : you clearly don't understand what randomness is.
you guys are retarded

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random

"Randomness is a lack of order, purpose, cause, or predictability"

the fact that the same "choices" are decided by the game repeatedly ,

oh fuck it. i don't care/ bye :)
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charlie chong
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Post by charlie chong »

:oops: after more playtime last night i agree the 3rd boss patterns aren't tied to which things you shoot first..SEEMS to be more linked to the time in which you destroy teh rectangles and turrets.. oh yeah i realized my calculations were wrong cos i've only had the game a week and a half.. it actually took me a week and a day to get to 6th boss and i must have clocked less hours than i thought previously....

finally getting a no bomb path through 5 :D level 6 tho :(
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PROMETHEUS
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

indstr wrote:
PROMETHEUS wrote:to indstr : you clearly don't understand what randomness is.
you guys are retarded

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random

"Randomness is a lack of order, purpose, cause, or predictability"

the fact that the same "choices" are decided by the game repeatedly ,

oh fuck it. i don't care/ bye :)
And what did I say ?
Me wrote:The definition of random is something of which you cannot predict the behaviour.
sooooo, who is retarded ?
charlie chong wrote:Embarassed after more playtime last night i agree the 3rd boss patterns aren't tied to which things you shoot first..SEEMS to be more linked to the time in which you destroy teh rectangles and turrets..
Look, when I tell you something, AT LEAST I have tested it to verify I'm not saying bullshit. But you're making statements based on nothing but a few experiences. Try making a savestate just before the boss switches attacks. Move left just before it switches. Start the savestate again, move left again, or right, or whatever, or do nothing. See ? Ok, do tests next time.
Hibou
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Post by Hibou »

indstr wrote:
PROMETHEUS wrote:to indstr : you clearly don't understand what randomness is.
you guys are retarded

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random

"Randomness is a lack of order, purpose, cause, or predictability"

the fact that the same "choices" are decided by the game repeatedly ,

oh fuck it. i don't care/ bye :)
The point is, the usual computer meaning, so to say, of randomness is more like "clearlly unpredictable for a human mind".

No computer system is able to produce true randomness like you define it. Do you remember the random() functions in old basics ? They always returned the same values in the same order if you forgot the crucial step before. You had to call a function called randomize() first in order to initialize the process and get apparently random numbers. In fact, random() was only returning the first element of a list of numbers (coming for a more or less complex formula), and what randomize() did was to decide which number would be picked first. To decide it, it usually used the system clock which, at the time, was the greatest chance a human mind couldn't guess where in the list the picks would start !

Randomness in computer science has improved a bit compared to that, but the general idea remains the same. No purely logic system is able to produce true randomness. They only produce results for which you can't guess the formulas driving to them, and for which you would need a second computer to do the counts even if you did know how things work...
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charlie chong
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Post by charlie chong »

charlie chong wrote:Embarassed after more playtime last night i agree the 3rd boss patterns aren't tied to which things you shoot first..SEEMS to be more linked to the time in which you destroy teh rectangles and turrets..
Look, when I tell you something, AT LEAST I have tested it to verify I'm not saying bullshit. But you're making statements based on nothing but a few experiences. Try making a savestate just before the boss switches attacks. Move left just before it switches. Start the savestate again, move left again, or right, or whatever, or do nothing. See ? Ok, do tests next time.[/quote]

ha ha i never proclaimed to be right dude and i'm not using mame/save states etc otherwise i could have probbly made better progress in this game... your the expert so i take your word!!!! just it SEEMS like i am able to bring out the same patterns at certain time when i fulfil certain criteria on this boss.. i will leave you to conduct more tests in your science lab :wink:
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PROMETHEUS
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

charlie chong wrote:just it SEEMS like i am able to bring out the same patterns at certain time when i fulfil certain criteria on this boss.. i will leave you to conduct more tests in your science lab :wink:
Well, no you are not. And nice attempt at irony.
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charlie chong
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Post by charlie chong »

not ironic ..that was a friendly wink .internets :(
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PROMETHEUS
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

oops sorry nevermind ^^ I took it the wrong way, I apologize. It was a little ambiguous ;)
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charlie chong
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Post by charlie chong »

don't worry i knew you just misunderstood.. my grammar and bad netiquette probbly don't help either .. i am just a beginner at this game and anything i say about strategy are just observations or ideas i've got while i was playing not actual truth
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indstr
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Post by indstr »

Hibou wrote: The point is, the usual computer meaning, so to say, of randomness is more like "clearlly unpredictable for a human mind".

etc
thanks, this is a lot more useful than PROMETHEUS' douchebaggery
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PROMETHEUS
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

indstr wrote:
Hibou wrote: The point is, the usual computer meaning, so to say, of randomness is more like "clearlly unpredictable for a human mind".

etc
thanks, this is a lot more useful than PROMETHEUS' douchebaggery
He wouldn't have had to explain this to you if you could understand what I said =)
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indstr
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Post by indstr »

PROMETHEUS wrote:
indstr wrote:
Hibou wrote: The point is, the usual computer meaning, so to say, of randomness is more like "clearlly unpredictable for a human mind".

etc
thanks, this is a lot more useful than PROMETHEUS' douchebaggery
He wouldn't have had to explain this to you if you could understand what I said =)
no, you apparently still don't understand what i said, or what he said either
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PROMETHEUS
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

xD
moozooh
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Post by moozooh »

MX7 wrote:lol contradiction
Might not have been the best choice of words, but what I said was: the game is never random, the player is.
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indstr
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Post by indstr »

moozooh wrote:
MX7 wrote:lol contradiction
Might not have been the best choice of words, but what I said was: the game is never random, the player is.
good choice of words!
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spadgy
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Post by spadgy »

I thought I was getting decent at shooters, and then...

... I dedicated all my time to arguing semantics.

We do it all the time here don't we? At the same time as using illiterate net slang and loads of jargon...

(Me included)
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Keade
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Post by Keade »

MX7 wrote:
moozooh wrote: game uses player input as the source of entropy
lol contradiction
Sorry, but I really can't see where there is ? (I'd like the off-topic to end but I'm curious :oops: )
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Arvandor
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Post by Arvandor »

It's not like this isn't anything more than a personal "FUCK YOU GAME" thread for me to vent in -_^ The off-topic isn't exactly killing it anymore dead than it already is.

I only tried to record an INP once, and it was a fairly average run, but I totally botched that nasty spot in stage 5, rendering the replay effectively useless. Maybe some other time =P Or maybe I'll try loading Wolfmame onto my flashdrive (now that I have one bigger than 64 megs) and record one at work.
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Keade
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Post by Keade »

Just in case you didn't know : be careful to avoid MAME versions which have problems with Cave games playback (I don't remember the range...0.99 to 0.1something. Recent versions are fine...at least, recent versions of WolfMAME).
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Arvandor
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Post by Arvandor »

I'm using the version of WolfMAME I downloaded to watch Prometheus' replay. So I assume it's fine.
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shoe-sama
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Post by shoe-sama »

I've been using 99 for all my inps
<Sidwell> TSS is manlier than a jet figher made of biceps.
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Arvandor
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Post by Arvandor »

Well, I made a crappy ass replay. It's a very odd mixture of good and bad run. I had a really REALLY brilliant death in stage 3, and then all my other deaths were very out of the ordinary. USUALLY I die because I neglect to kill certain enemies, or am in the wrong screen area, and corner myself or get hit by a bullet I'm not used to dealing with or something. But on this run for some reason all my deaths were failure to navigate the large safe spot in the thin bullet cloud. I almost never die from that o_O Oh well.

Edit: It doesn't work, you have to be logged in, and I don't think anyone wants to make an account at some random forum just to download a replay from a worthless player =D

If this link doesn't work for you, let me know, and ... I'll have to figure out some other way to get it hosted, or just e-mail it to anyone who cares, or whatever.
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