I thought I was getting decent at shooters, and then...

[stuminator]

DDP is just kicking my butt also. Granted, I've only been playing it for about a week, but you'd think doing well in DP would translate into success in DDP. My high score so far is... umm... lower than my DP high score.

[tada]

I think I've gotten slightly better. I'm now making it to the middle or end of stage 5 on my best games, and I'm creeping up on the second extend value. My best score is just shy of 17 million.

It's kind of strange, but I don't see the effects of DDP binges until the next time I play.

[PROMETHEUS]

AHA!!!!^#$^&#!$&$*@$ !$#& $ !#$*$^@$#!$&! *swears fluently*

I found out one of my bigger problems. How I ever made it to stage 6 without realizing this is quite beyond me.

The hitbox is probably a good solid 6 pixels lower than I thought it was!!! I thought it was that grey spot in the center of the ship, when it's really the spot right BELOW that where there's an actual hole in your ship and you can see the things behind it. THAT is your hitbox.

*sigh* Why is it so unusually low? No wonder I keep dying when I think I'm weaving through a cloud of death successfully; only to go "pop."

Edit: This epiphany has improved my DDP game by a HUGE amount. I got to the final boss for the first time ever despite some stupid deaths while I was still holding a lot of bombs in stock. Stage 5 is IMMENSELY easier now. Still evil, but much more doable.

You're talking about type A right ? Type A hitbox is indeed the grey box in it's center, not the hole beneath it. It might be one or two pixels lower than shown on this picture :



Anyway, I guarantee it's definitely in the grey box.

[Arvandor]

No, it's A LOT lower than that. Go sit in front of an extremely slow moving blue vertical bullet from say the first boss, and notice where it hits you. Also, weaving through clouds in Stage 5 and 6 with more confidence now, I'm quite sure it's lower than depicted there.

[neo]

No, it's A LOT lower than that. Go sit in front of an extremely slow moving blue vertical bullet from say the first boss, and notice where it hits you. Also, weaving through clouds in Stage 5 and 6 with more confidence now, I'm quite sure it's lower than depicted there.

Those blue vertical bullets also have a very small hitbox, it's only two or three pixels in the middle of the bullet, not the entire bullet.

[Arvandor]

Hmmm... It still feels lower when I'm weaving through stuff in the later stages. That or I somehow misjudge bullet speeds in this game like I never have in a shooter before, and making myself think the hitbox is where I'm telling you it is fixes the problem.

Either way... =P

[PROMETHEUS]

Yeah, what neo said is right. I tested again to be sure before posting this picture. Try hitting bolt type bullets (easier to see their center) coming from your side and you'll see the hitbox is exactly like on the picture. You can try this in the beginning of stage 1-1, after the first wave of tanks : there are 2 little white towers that shoot pink bolts, they'll shoot horizontally if you place yourself right. Maybe 1 pixel or 2 lower, but certainly not more.

[Arvandor]

Ok ok, you guys were right... I'm just retarded ^_^

Got my first clear of the game, but I had to bomb at my own shadow through stage 5, and then the stage 6 boss (stage 6 itself isn't as tough as stage 5 imho). Now to work on consistancy, chaing of stages 4+, and less bomb reliance.

[PROMETHEUS]

No problem man, the weird bullets' hitbox size can be misleading.

Stage 4 is gonna be pretty hard to learn how to chain :p Good luck ^_^
(use the superplay.uk KO video of 600M with A-L to help you if you want to learn it faster)

[Arvandor]

Yeah, I've seen that vid before ^_^ I'll probably be referring to it a lot later on, but for now I just want to work on consistancy, and just getting better at the game. Particularly Stage 5 and the final boss (his last pattern rapes me in ways I can't describe... I HAVE to bomb it a lot). And whatever bits of chaining I can learn on my own in the meantime, all the better =) I managed to slowly work out stage 2, and what bits of stage 3 you can actually chain (though I can almost never link the big green ships to the big blue turret boats). So... we'll see I guess.

[PROMETHEUS]

though I can almost never link the big green ships to the big blue turret boats

That part is a bit hard to chain and not important because it's a small chain and it doesn't make a lot of points at all. The video shows how to chain this part though. It doesn't really matter if one of the chains break in stage 3, they really don't make so many points.

[Arvandor]

Yeah, I generally don't worry about it for that very reason. I tend to focus more on maintaining no-miss (which usually isn't hard on stage 3), and if a chain happens, then yay ^_^

[Arvandor]

Back to my old vent thread I guess. There can't be another human being who's put as much time into Dodonpachi as I have while still sucking as bad as I do.

And it's starting to piss me off.

[PROMETHEUS]

How much have you played ?

[Arvandor]

A rough hour guesstimate would be pretty difficult. But I've put in at least 1-8 hours a week for the past year and a half or so, with a few months here and there of not playing at all. The past 2 months or so though I've been pretty faithful about putting an hour in about 4 days a week at least, with one or two days a week where I can stuff in 4+ hours of play (patience permitting) =/

And I still die in stage 3 quite frequently (these are the most frustrating deaths). I can still almost never one-life stage 4. And while I can make it to the stage 5 boss on one credit more consistantly, I still get my ass kicked by stage 5 in general. And my top score is still only 65M T_T

Usually I can feel progress when I just play a shooter a lot, but I feel like I've hit some kind of wall with Dodonpachi =/

Edit: Probably at least 150 hours. Which is more time than I've dedicated to any other single shooter. And for some reason Dodonpachi still gives me by far the most difficult time.

[PROMETHEUS]

That sounds ok to me. When I had played 150 hours I was barely starting to play A-L and to learn chains. Probably I was learning the Stage 2 chain. I probably died in stage 3 pretty often as well and I remember my high score was 72M when I had played 200 hours. So you're doing quite well since you're not even practicing with save states.

Dodonpachi is a hard game that takes serious skill after all. That also means these times can be reduced a lot if you are good at another danmaku game before starting to play it :p

Anyway, Stage 4 can be bitchy in some places if you aren't doing exactly what you should AND trying to chain. I realized quite late I had a very risky path at the second white tank that comes out of a building in my chain and died there 1/3 of the time. A very simple modification (moving downward a little more) turned it into 95% success. The worst stage for that kind of shit is stage 6 : better know your way f00kin precisely there.

[charlie chong]

boss of stage 3 fires different patterns sometimes

That's randomized lol.

All the other bosses follow a specific attack pattern.

i dont believe this to be true.. his attacks seem to change depending on what order/how many turrets you destroy.. taking out the 2 rectangle bits that fire the pink bullets in between the turrets at the beginning of the boss seems to trigger a different pattern first than if you go for the turrets first.

[spadgy]

Shit me! I need to put ALOT more time into specific shmups! Maybe I could actually be good one day, based on how few hours I've put into to be just moderatelty above bad on some shmups, compared to the hours quoted above.

Basically I jump about from one to the other. I need focus!

[charlie chong]

Shit me! I need to put ALOT more time into specific shmups! Maybe I could actually be good one day, based on how few hours I've put into to be just moderatelty above bad on some shmups, compared to the hours quoted above.

Basically I jump about from one to the other. I need focus!

just stick to one or 2 of your favourite games for a while and build up your shooting skills.. your NOT going to get magically better just by wishing..
say for example in a 2 week period since i recieved my dodonpachi pcb i've probbly put in easily 40-50 hrs just to get to the 6th level boss

[spadgy]

Shit me! I need to put ALOT more time into specific shmups! Maybe I could actually be good one day, based on how few hours I've put into to be just moderatelty above bad on some shmups, compared to the hours quoted above.

Basically I jump about from one to the other. I need focus!

just stick to one or 2 of your favourite games for a while and build up your shooting skills.. your NOT going to get magically better just by wishing..
say for example in a 2 week period since i recieved my dodonpachi pcb i've probbly put in easily 40-50 hrs just to get to the 6th level boss

There have been ones I've focussed on I guess, but you're right, I need to just stick to a couple! All the time fannying about jumping games I could have done something like you've done in two weeks, and still get to play other games when I'm done a after a few weeks. All works out the same doesn't it? 12 months of jumping weekly across a dozen games when I could just put a solid month in to each.

Of course I know it takes more than a month, but what I mean is you can be focussed and still vary your games.

[PROMETHEUS]

boss of stage 3 fires different patterns sometimes

That's randomized lol.

All the other bosses follow a specific attack pattern.

i dont believe this to be true.. his attacks seem to change depending on what order/how many turrets you destroy.. taking out the 2 rectangle bits that fire the pink bullets in between the turrets at the beginning of the boss seems to trigger a different pattern first than if you go for the turrets first.

It IS randomized, trust me.

As for the play times spadgy, I have spent around 450 hours on Dodonpachi myself :p You need a lot of time to get good in general, but I'm pretty sure once you're good at one game you can get good at others really fast.

[Frederik]

Aravandor, it sounds like you are almost at the exact skill level in DDP as I am. Especially considering the annoying deaths in stage 3. I died stupidly on the "cloud-spewing" midboss so often that I just started bombing his face. I got used to the green screen- spamming enemies after carefully timing the bullet-cancelling ship explosions, though.

I guess the key to stage four is to take out certain enemies very early, the ones that are hidden in those small buildings gave me a lot of headache until I realized you can aura-kill them almost immideately after freeing them.

I used to think that type C-S is a lot easier for surviving, but its weak laser and small aura can be a huge disadvantage. A-L is perfect when you know what you are doing.

Besides, even if you one of the ones who hate chaining (I know I do!) it is pretty useful to at least try to chain some parts in the game for early extends, and really use each bomb you get afterwards, which is a whole lot. Bombing - even the pros do it!

One thing I think is hindering my progress is that my current version of MAME Mac OS X gives me error messages when trying to save states, which means I have to do full runs every times I play it instead of practicing stages or bosses on their own. "Pending anonymous timers" my ass. I tried older versions but those didn´t recognize my joypad.

[indstr]

It IS randomized, trust me.

so what about emulators and stuff that just record your input, how do they "force" the game to run through the same "random" pattern that it chose when you recorded the playback?

i'm not trying to be a troll, just genuinely curious about this issue. because as far as i know, they still playback correctly. all the ones i've done anyway

[markedkiller78]

Shit me! I need to put ALOT more time into specific shmups! Maybe I could actually be good one day, based on how few hours I've put into to be just moderatelty above bad on some shmups, compared to the hours quoted above.

Basically I jump about from one to the other. I need focus!

just stick to one or 2 of your favourite games for a while and build up your shooting skills.. your NOT going to get magically better just by wishing..
say for example in a 2 week period since i recieved my dodonpachi pcb i've probbly put in easily 40-50 hrs just to get to the 6th level boss

Fuck me! were do you even find 40-50 hours in 2 weeks

[PROMETHEUS]

Bombing - even the pros do it!

You really can't afford to bomb if you want to score tbh. I also think C-S is a lot easier to play for survival than A-L, that's why I switched to A-L at the time because I liked the harder challenge and style.

so what about emulators and stuff that just record your input, how do they "force" the game to run through the same "random" pattern that it chose when you recorded the playback?

The definition of random is something of which you cannot predict the behaviour. There is always something the game bases itself on to decide which pattern the boss is going to throw at you or whatever else it wants to randomize. If it was based on which turrets you kill first, it would be predictable and controllable = not random. Instead, it is based on your button presses. You move a few pixels left, the game's memory records some meaningless data based on that, and it then uses this uncontrollable data to decide which pattern the boss will use. You move one 60th of a second earlier or one more pixel, it changes the data and it changes what is randomized. It could also use some other information such as the game's clock or the color of some pixels or whatever. So when you playback a recording, everything happens the same way because it plays back your actions 100% accurately at every frame, producing the same data that is used for randomization ; that you couldn't control when playing.

It could also do it differently by simply recording some numbers when recording that specify what the game has decided for the boss' pattern and everything, for example when the boss changes pattern record a number to tell which pattern is next and some coordinates to tell which exact version of this pattern was used, and then read those numbers at playback, instead of emulating again the randomization, but that's just not how it happens. There is no problem with reproducing this kind of behavior, be it "random" at playtime or not.

[moozooh]

But again you've got patterns after patterns that barely require the player to move. Really slow and steady stuff.

I think you're being fallacious here. The fact that a pattern doesn't require you to move a longer distance doesn't mean it won't make you move a lot, but on a lesser scale. In fact, most patterns won't even give you enough room to move, requiring greater precision (sometimes to the scale of just a couple pixels). Low bullet speed is countered by having a lot more bullet trajectories to consider at any given time, only a few of them being aimed directly at you (and thus, easy to manipulate by moving sideways a little).

[PROMETHEUS]

Lol Rob you linked to that video that shows the super hard boss in ultra and call it easy -______- I think you REALLY don't understand danmaku gameplay.

Show me what Mars Matrix is like when played properly. I bet it's like 500.000 times easier.

[Syndicate]

I think DoDonPachi is kinda easy, Mars Matrix is where it's at.

[PROMETHEUS]

I bet you play C-S and just blow everything up to survive and don't play 2nd loop ;D

[indstr]

Instead, it is based on your button presses. You move a few pixels left, the game's memory records some meaningless data based on that, and it then uses this uncontrollable data to decide which pattern the boss will use. You move one 60th of a second earlier or one more pixel, it changes the data and it changes what is randomized. It could also use some other information such as the game's clock or the color of some pixels or whatever. So when you playback a recording, everything happens the same way because it plays back your actions 100% accurately at every frame, producing the same data that is used for randomization ; that you couldn't control when playing.

if it behaved this way, it would mean it's not completely random. it's based on some kind of calculation... even if the calculation it does is arbitrary

if it was truly random, the attack pattners/whatever it selected, might be different, when playing back the recording, thus the recording "plays back the wrong thing"... and showing you most likely dying very quickly by running into bullets that weren't even there when you recorded it. for example, if you moved left, during the recording, because the boss chose one attack pattern, but when you played it back, it randomly chose another one, then you would most likely die on the video playback, even though you didn't actually die when you recorded it. then you would probably loose all your lives, and then the emulator would just show the demo loop and still be "playing back" your button presses which wouldn't be affecting anything unless you happened to continue with credits in or something like that.

strangely, i recorded a demo of me playing SuperC on the ubernes emulator, and this very thing happened. (although i didn't think superC was randomized like that, so maybe it was some kind of recording error). i didn't die at all during when i recorded the video, but the playback had me getting killed halfway through level 1, and then just idling at the "continue/end" screen with the selector going back and forth between the two, because it was playing back my gameplay presses