How long did it take you to get decent at shmup games?

[Motorherp]

If you are getting frustrated on defaults there is no shame at all in playing an easier mode or an easier game. Shmups are essentially about the fun of seeing your progress, competing against yourself. This should apply both to 1ccing easier games or beating your high score in harder ones.

On the flip side of this I've found it can also be good to spend a while concentrating on harder modes or harder games. After a few workout sessions of a week or more in length (depending how frequently you play) where you play nothing but these hard shmups/modes and try your best to improve at them you should start to see your playing go up a level. Then try going back to easier shmups/modes that were giving you trouble before and feel the improvement.

[Randorama]

This thread was meant to be more of a discussion on learning/skill curves rather than a "halp!?"... I just prompted the topic by means of recounting my own present situation. I probably could've gone about it in a better way.

Thanks for all the input, regardless.

No prob, it's just that such topic has been beaten to death in the past and seems to stimulate extremely intense efforts, by some, to deny any hope of learning, improving etc. A good amount of locals seems to be convinced that, well, either you get a result as "innate skill" (built in from our selfish genes!), or there's nothing that you can do. Then, they use all their rational skills to defend this completely irrational position (!).

Aside trivialities, it will probably difficult that you can get world records by miracle. Actually, in order to do decent plays (in which you don't feel clumsy and inept), you will need some serious practice. That, and a good understanding of a game's mechanics, plus some basic aspects.

My suggestions are to understand what kind of player you are. I am quite imprecise (but relatively fast) so I tend to side-step patterns. A good way to do so is to understand how much space a pattern will cover on the screen, then have an enemy shoot in a given point (where you are) and quickly move somewhere else. Repeat by concatenating the next path, until you get a continuous trajectory taking your ship/goth-loli/plane from beginning to end of stage.

Another good thing is come with a secondary plan. When you are clueless about a certain section, try to land a bomb (or whatever) as an extra help, they're there for that. Once you figure out the solution, try to implement it.
What can't be defeated today will be a piece of cake tomorrow, of course.

Then, it's really about practice. It may be clear that a 200-bullets pattern can be easily dodged by going through a specific hole in the pattern, but can you actually do that? As per times, numbers and quantities, they do not tell a lot, but if you put some serious thinking, you will get a good progression within months.

Shmups (as some other arcade genres) can be quite cerebrotic, especially if you want to enjoy the whole experience. Getting somewhere can be frustrating, but the journey itself can be loads of fun, however

[unsane]

I try to experiment with different types of controllers...

It'd probly be a good idea to pick one controller and stick to it, especially if you are cycling between keyboard - gamepad - joystick.

almost always refuse the opportunity to continue through the game if I lose all of my lives -- with the exception of games like Gradius V and Ikaruga that record my score after losing my last life and allow me to continue to the end with no penalties (a feature I would like to see more often in Shmups).

I don't get it, what feature? What penalties do other shmups give you for continuing? Do most shmups not record your score if you continue? /confused

[PROMETHEUS]

Unlike most other genres of video games, actually "getting better" at shmup-type games in general will probably seem to come very slowly because every game is different. Sure there are similar patterns in some games, and you'll slowly develop strategies for certain types of recurring scoring systems, but other than that it's going to be slow for general improvement across the genre, unless you're some kind of autistic genius or something.

I think that comes from the fact that each shmup game needs to be memorized to be played well, other than that all shmups are incredibly similar in my opinion.

So koda, keep in mind that it's easy not to feel any improvement when you play a shmup without trying to memorize it. You will just keep getting randomly trapped by the patterns and survive when you're lucky enough not to. Memorize a good surviving path, or better yet a good scoring path and practice its execution in all its details. (save states recommended)

[Kaiser]

I try to experiment with different types of controllers...

It'd probly be a good idea to pick one controller and stick to it, especially if you are cycling between keyboard - gamepad - joystick.

almost always refuse the opportunity to continue through the game if I lose all of my lives -- with the exception of games like Gradius V and Ikaruga that record my score after losing my last life and allow me to continue to the end with no penalties (a feature I would like to see more often in Shmups).

I don't get it, what feature? What penalties do other shmups give you for continuing? Do most shmups not record your score if you continue? /confused

In thunder force 5 when you continue, it's not possible to beat final boss, when you continue in sonic wings limited you get hard as fuck final stage lol

[wiNteR]

I think that comes from the fact that each shmup game needs to be memorized to be played well, other than that all shmups are incredibly similar in my opinion.

So koda, keep in mind that it's easy not to feel any improvement when you play a shmup without trying to memorize it. You will just keep getting randomly trapped by the patterns and survive when you're lucky enough not to. Memorize a good surviving path, or better yet a good scoring path and practice its execution in all its details. (save states recommended)

Pretty much agree with the post. When I started playing I actually thought there was some magical transfer of all the skill from one game to another. Now I think the main difference is that better players will tend to get good executions earlier (after memorization) and hence cross difficulty walls easier than others.

Save states are the best way for an initial skill increase imho. In any case, if you are playing a game repeatedly for a credit clear you should keep an eye for patterns at important points instead of trying to play it like the first time.

[sven666]

i dont know what constitutes as "decent" but my first cave 1CC was ESPgaluda and i got that after maybe 130-150credits.

if being decent means getting a good score aswell (ie standing out in world rankings) then it takes alot more.

i scored ~20mil on Ikaruga back in the days and i spent maybe 200-250hours on that, to get +30mil expect atleast double.

[moozooh]

I don't get it, what feature? What penalties do other shmups give you for continuing? Do most shmups not record your score if you continue? /confused

There are several ways of handling a score past one credit. AFAIK, there are games that continue the counter but increment the last digit, others ignore the first credit and save only the one you got biggest score with in the same session (which may as well not be the first credit, as later stages tend to be more fruitful overall).

[Erinu]

I practised the hell out of Mushihimesama and them moved on to Touhou. It isn't necessarily about dodging when it comes to these games, but reading. After awhile, dodging becomes secondary.

You have to know where to dodge before you dodge, which comes from comprehending the bullet patterns. Makes a lot of sense.

[MR_Soren]

It's about feeling comfortable with specific games, not about feeling comfortable with the genre.

That just takes lots of practice. The games I've played the most in the past year are Shikigami No Shiro and Nanostray.

For SnS, I just play a lot and occasionally use the practice mode to get better at the sections I have trouble with. Eventually, I learned how to clear once difficult sections without getting hit or bombing. One day, I found an easy way to dodge the meatballs fired by the 2-3 boss. I got good at dodging between the acorns in 3-1 with a few practice runs. Just keep playing. Perhaps I'll 1CC it someday.

Nanostray, I found improvement through attempting the challenges and the score runs on Arcade mode. Complete a stage on Arcade mode, post your score on Nanostray.com. Look at where you rank. Look at the highest scoring player. Try to close the gap.

[indstr]

I think that comes from the fact that each shmup game needs to be memorized to be played well, other than that all shmups are incredibly similar in my opinion.

So koda, keep in mind that it's easy not to feel any improvement when you play a shmup without trying to memorize it. You will just keep getting randomly trapped by the patterns and survive when you're lucky enough not to. Memorize a good surviving path, or better yet a good scoring path and practice its execution in all its details. (save states recommended)

Pretty much agree with the post. When I started playing I actually thought there was some magical transfer of all the skill from one game to another. Now I think the main difference is that better players will tend to get good executions earlier (after memorization) and hence cross difficulty walls easier than others.

personally i don't like this outlook. i think shmups are enjoyed by two distinctly different types of gamers: ones that prefer logistical play (memorization), and ones that prefer tactical play (improvisation)
(the other main type of gamer being strategic, which doesn't really apply to shmups)

read more about play styles on Chris bateman's blog "only a game" - it's fascinating stuff in itself
http://onlyagame.typepad.com/only_a_gam ... _play.html
http://onlyagame.typepad.com/only_a_gam ... _play.html

personally, i identify a lot more with the description of a tactical player, than i do with the description of a logistical player.

i have only seriously gotten into shmups the past 4 months or so. right now i wouldn't call myself good at all. but i play for survival and for the fun of it. i enjoy playing lots of different games instead of focusing on 1 or 2. i've tried out probably about 100 shmups in the past 4 months, giving a couple credits into each one to see which ones i like the best, and then putting more time into the ones i like.

whenever i've glanced at superplay videos and seen where people have their ship at the top of the screen because they know exactly where every single enemy is going to come out -- to me, that does not look like fun. it's defenitely not how i get enjoyment out of a game. it is more fun to me, when i am at the bottom of the screen trying to frantically dodge all the spray coming at me. the excitement of the game!!

what i'm thinking is that tactical players are probably more likely to be able to "transfer their skill" from one game to another, since they are less likely to rely on memorization. whereas logistical players, who rely more on memorization, might feel completely lost when trying a new game. i gather this from some comments i've read in other threads where people said something like "yes, i can only play games by memorizing them" -- these people are most likely largely logistical and have very little tactical skills.
most people strike a balance between the two, but everybody probably leans one way or the other

anybody have any comments on this? or care to tell which type of play you prefer?

as another note, i have noticed that my "general level of skill" has increased lately, and i can usually get to about level 3 on the 1st credit on most shmups that i try for the first time (although there are some that still totally kick my ass) ... so i am hoping that i will be able to successfully "transfer my skill" between games, instead of memorizing them. if i ever get to the point where i feel like i need to memorize them excessively to get anymore enjoyment out of it, i will probably quit playing them altogether

one last thing:

this distinction also applies to other types of games... for example, i used to play DDR heavily in the arcade. i noticed that i was generally better at "site reading" a song (playing it for the first time) than a lot of my friends, who usually required playing it more times and getting used to the patterns before they could get as good of a score. same thing in trackmania nations - a lot of times i will win the first round of a track, but then after the other players have had a couple times to get used to it, then they will start catching up to and/or beating me

this post is not to brag at all, i wouldn't say i'm excellent at either ddr or shmups, i'm just saying there's different types of gamers and i think it's fascinating

[indstr]

on another note (didn't want to include this on the same post as the last)

there's only a couple of games that i have gotten more serious into -

Under defeat which i've put close to 10 hours into. I am working on 1cc'ing this. right now i can get about 1/2way through level 5 before ending my 1st credit

Dodonpachi - i'd estimate i've put between 6-10 hours into this as well. i've gotten to the middle of level 5 on the first credit on this as well

Blue wish Resurrection - i've put at least 5 and upwards of 7 hours on this. i can get to the last boss on the 1st credit and i think i'll be able to 1cc it soon

when i hear people say they've spent 250 hours on a single shmup, i can't even fathom dedicating that much time to it. sure, i've put more than that much time into other games, Trackmania Nations for example, but it's got thousands of user-made levels. i wouldn't be content with spending that much time on the same 5 levels of a game

koda, if you want to try games you can 1cc, try some doujins for PC. ones i have 1cc'ed on normal difficulty so far:

flew fighter
eden's edge
demolition gunner

eden's and demolition were easy, but flew fighter took a bit of work. it's the first shmup i ever really "practiced" and it took me about 3 or 4 hours of work to be able to 1cc. it's also very well designed and fun as hell, so give it a shot!

[SuperGrafx]

I was pretty good for my time during the peak of the shooter era of the 16-bit days.
Though these days I consider myself to be largely average at best with regards to the modern shmups. I still love to play them nevertheless.

[spadgy]

I've been playing shmups a fair amount since the release of Ikaruga on the gamecube, and I still mostly suck. If anything over the past year or two I've noticed a lot of improvement, but I still basically suck overall.

So don't worry about it, having fun is all that matters. If I was worried about being good, I would have given up at playing shooters years ago.

Just the same. Before then, I always loved them, but thought they were some forgotten subgenre. Then between Ikaruga I generally played them and was pretty average. Then in the last two years I've really upped the ante, and noticed a sudden improvement (though I still fall into the 'enjoys shmups' catogory, rather than the 'masters shmups' one, which I'm very happy with.

My problem is I'm a jack of all shmups, master of none. I wish I could just commit to one. Same with my skateboarding and tricks.

[StoofooEsq]

I don't get it, what feature? What penalties do other shmups give you for continuing? Do most shmups not record your score if you continue? /confused

Well, some but not all shmups (Raiden III, for one) slap something like "CNT" as your initials if you make a high score after continuing. I just consider that a mark of shame and make any attempts possible in order to avoid that.

[Twiddle]

It's like it's calling you a cunt or something

[escadrille]

It's like it's calling you a cunt or something

[wiNteR]

what i'm thinking is that tactical players are probably more likely to be able to "transfer their skill" from one game to another, since they are less likely to rely on memorization. whereas logistical players, who rely more on memorization, might feel completely lost when trying a new game.

You are confusing few things here. Memorization doesn't mean that you don't require skill. Memorization is just another way of saying that you know a good path through a particular stage or stages. Again even if you know the path the reduction of difficulty only depends on the particular game (whether its a memorizer or not for example).

as another note, i have noticed that my "general level of skill" has increased lately, and i can usually get to about level 3 on the 1st credit on most shmups that i try for the first time (although there are some that still totally kick my ass) ... so i am hoping that i will be able to successfully "transfer my skill" between games, instead of memorizing them.

When you have played enough credits of a game you are probably lying to yourself by saying '100% improvisation'. Also, if you reach the 3rd level of a particular game this doesn't say anything about your general level of skill. It just means stage-3 is your first initial wall. If most other players you know get stuck on stage-2 (of the same game) after first few credits then indeed it could be a good indicator of skill. Anyway, these are just my viewpoints. You are welcome to disagree with them

[shoe-sama]

play space bomber

easy 1cc

[indstr]

When you have played enough credits of a game you are probably lying to yourself by saying '100% improvisation'.)

i agree, i wasn't saying that i rely on 100% improvisation. obviously if you repeat something enough times, you will remember parts of it. i know a "general path for survival" through the levels i know on the games i have committed too, but it is just a survival path, not a scoring path. for example, "ok, i know there are some bigass cannons up here, but there's also a wave of little enemies coming from the right side of the screen. i need to kill the cannons first so their fire doesn't create an impenetrable wall of bullets", or "i know this boss is about to change fire modes and it is the one where ..."

i just mean that my preferred method of play relies on improvisation and not memorization

[indstr]

It's like it's calling you a cunt or something

funny funny

[spadgy]

play space bomber

easy 1cc

Satisfying easy, or just dull easy?

[lgb]

I'll let you know when I get decent at shmup games.

[PROMETHEUS]

to indstr :

I don't think there's any "improvisation skill" in shmups that is developped specifically by ignoring memorization but by improvising instead. I'm guessing you're thinking about techniques to herd bullets away or recognize what to kill first, but scoring paths are full of this kind of things, so a player who usually plays by memorizing will be able to improvise "well" when he plays a new game just as much (or more?) as someone who usually doesn't, if they have the same reading & dodging skills.

[shoe-sama]

play space bomber

easy 1cc

Satisfying easy, or just dull easy?

well you won't really progress unless you practice using savestates

[indstr]

to indstr :
a player who usually plays by memorizing will be able to improvise "well" when he plays a new game just as much (or more?) as someone who usually doesn't, if they have the same reading & dodging skills.

i agree with this

I don't think there's any "improvisation skill" in shmups that is developped specifically by ignoring memorization but by improvising instead.

i disagree with this, i think just general twitch skill can be increased. for example, after practicing "playing around in the space between the bullets" on the beginning of dodonpachi level 3 by using savestates in mame and reloading from the beginning every time i died, i got a much better awareness of my hitbox, more understanding of where i need to look on the screen to dodge bullets depending on how far they are from my ship, better able to anticipate where bullets are going to be based on their speed and trajectory, and just general comfort at going between close bullets instead of trying to avoid the whole swarm by going around them. it was after this 1 night alone of practicing dodonpachi for only a couple of hours that i noticed improvement in other shmups as well
i am positive that i will be able to develop more tactics similar to this (or at least improve on this more) that will be applicable to all games of the genre

i mean, you even said it yourself... "dodging skills".. is this not something that is gained gradually by each individual and can be used in all games, independently of whether or not they have memorized certain games? and that some people are just naturally more gifted at than others?

[Aquas]

Personally, the real excitement of shmups comes to me in games like Raiden Fighters Jet, while memorization will help you score the big points, improvisation in dodging will keep you on your high heels. I love that adrenaline rush.

While a game like Mushihime-sama gets me really nervous and excited when I'm breaching a new high score, I have a certain kind of giddiness then in breaking my goal oriented barriers (as I follow a certain route that is gainly for points, and hope to maintain my integrity.)

Heh, in relation to the articles Industr posted: I really do not enjoy the constraint of bullets in bullet hells, because when I die from one of them, I always think it's bullshit because my hitbox is so freakin' small. Like, what the hell, man!

[PROMETHEUS]

i mean, you even said it yourself... "dodging skills".. is this not something that is gained gradually by each individual and can be used in all games, independently of whether or not they have memorized certain games? and that some people are just naturally more gifted at than others?

I don't believe much in "some people are naturally more gifted than others", I don't believe much in talent and geniuses, I think all that stuff probably comes from education and other skills acquired since early youth, and more importantly I think nobody really knows why the hell some people seem to get better results than others faster so, whatever, but yeah you are right about those skills that are gained gradually by everyone. My point is that you don't need to be playing that way (improvising) to improve on the skills that a shmup requires. You can improve at that just as well or better by playing memorized paths (because they have you read patterns and dodge stuff everywhere).

Basically I think it's okay not to memorize any game and just practice at randomly dodging stuff in games, but if you do that I am unsure you will hone your skills up as fast as someone who plays "properly" and you risk stagnating, for the reasons I mentioned in the last post (DDP becoming piss easy, mushi futari ultra just impossible). Also, always playing like that means never scoring high and never knowing what you are worth at any game.

[spadgy]

I don't believe much in "some people are naturally more gifted than others", I don't believe much in talent and geniuses

I'm inclined to agree with this (indeed, I have a neigbour who is one of the world's most talented session banjo players, and he gets very angry if people call him talented. 'It's 1000s of hours of practice over decades' he snarls), but I do still have an inkling some people are just built to be slightly better at one thing and other people biased towards being slightly better at another. I emphersise the word 'slightly'.

But I do think practice at twitching can make you a little better, as surely your head gets better at calculating on the fly and analysing the various routes that open and close. Like the way playing darts regularly makes you quicker with subtraction.

And finally, surely there are very few shmups where you can actually memorise a pixel perfect fly through. Even the real memorisers require a tocuh of improvisation, even if it's just a tiny bit off course. Or have I been playing them wrong? I'd just find strict route learning a little less appealing. Obviously I have a basic route, but not one set in stone.

[Sundance]

I'm 35 and i'm still learning. Every game is a learning process and you have to go through it multiple times to get good at it. I often make it through complex bullet patterns and then get hit by some rare stray, slow moving bullet right at the end. I still enjoy learning and playing every chance i get though.