How long did it take you to get decent at shmup games?

[koda]

Of course it doesn't happen all at once, but how long did it take before you really felt comfortable with the genre?

I get so damn frustrated sometimes. Shmups are easily my favorite type of game, but I'm horrible at them. All of them. I don't even play for score yet, because I feel like I should first get to the point where survival is second nature to me-- I can't seem to do that. I haven't found a game that I can 1CC yet. A lot of times I can't even beat a game/loop if I feed. I'm usually just playing on the default difficulty, as well.

My buddies will come over and watch and be like, "Oh my god, how can you do that?" ...but I think that just makes it worse, because I know that I'm not any good and it's almost like rubbing it in. I'm just glad that I haven't smashed any controllers yet.

Think it's hopeless? I have a really competitive nature when it comes to games and I'm not sure how much longer I can put up with sucking. I try to memorize stages and patterns, I try to experiment with different types of controllers... what's next?

[elfhentaifan]

Of course it doesn't happen all at once, but how long did it take before you really felt comfortable with the genre?

You will start to like them when you are 30 years old and lack of hair on both poles

[koda]

Of course it doesn't happen all at once, but how long did it take before you really felt comfortable with the genre?

You will start to like them when you are 30 years old and lack of hair on both poles

Oh, well I already like them. I love them. The difficulty is really what attracts me... but I want to feel like I'm getting somewhere, y'know?

[RGC]

I'll let you know when I get decent at shmup games.

[kengou]

I got back into the genre about a year ago. I sucked then and I suck now. I've only 1CC'd some really easy shmups. Still though, I feel like I'm a lot better now than I was a year ago. I got Mushi for the PS2 just recently, and looking at the videos I thought I was never going to make it past stage 1, but to my surprise I found I could get to stage 3 in both original and maniac. Ultra, of course, kills me before I even reach the first boss, but that's kind of an exception. Just playing games like Mushi or Galuda or whatever, I find that I'm able to analyze the patterns a lot better, and really decipher complex bullet mazes with better accuracy than I ever could have before. My intuition also seems better; if I'm playing DDP and I need to lead enemy fire up to one side, I can then switch directions through a small hole pretty easily, which is something that took me a while to get good at. As with all difficult tasks, this one takes practice to excel at.

My friends, watching me play, do the exact same thing: "oh my god, how do you do that, you're amazing" and I can only say "no, not really." To them, no-missing stages 1 and 2 in DOJ is impossible (and I surprise myself when I can manage to do that). To me, 1CC'ing the first two loops of DOJ seems impossible. It's all a matter of perspective.

[iatneH]

You will start to like them when you are 30 years old and lack of hair on both poles

What's the second pole..?

[BulletMagnet]

I'll let you know when I get decent at shmup games.

[shoe-sama]

lulz space bomber 1cc in liek 2 days

so if you wanna get good at shmups play space bomber

[Twiddle]

battle garegga

It's the game that shot me from "stunningly mediocre" to "almost competent"

[unsane]

If i ever got decent, it was such a slow process as to be imperceptible.

If you are getting frustrated on defaults there is no shame at all in playing an easier mode or an easier game. Shmups are essentially about the fun of seeing your progress, competing against yourself. This should apply both to 1ccing easier games or beating your high score in harder ones.

I played the Raidens constantly in arcades many years ago and sucked (i was lucky to reach level 3). But i had a fucking blast and that's all that matters - i never questioned it. Don't get me wrong, i'm very competitive too, but maybe set your sights a little lower. It's easy to get dismayed comparing yourself to the pros, but keep in mind they have played their mastered game for 500 hours.

[nimitz]

"The good thing about sucking at shmups is you get tons of replay value"** -someone

Keep that in mind, play the games, enjoy'em. In many games you don't need to be very good to enjoy yourself (Dodonpachi is a great example).

** not sure this is the exact quote

[wiNteR]

I have been playing rather sporadically for last few years but hopefully my experience will give you some perspective. When I started playing shooters few years ago I kind of got the first few credit clears fairly easily, to my own surprise. The reason was that I was using save states for practice. But its not like my skill didn't improve with these 1CCs though. I didn't care for scoring systems or anything. If you are looking for an initial boost I think this is the best approach to get some confidence.

You shouldn't bother about scoring systems too much earlier on. The best way is to learn scoring systems at your own pace and then gradually incorporate them into your game.

Another important thing is that you should try to play a few games without any form of stage select or save states ever. It provides you with a different perspective. I haven't even been credit feeding recently (this is your own choice). I know its valid and all but I just don't feel like doing it. I was able to 1-loop progear like this but its surprisingly easy to hit a wall this way. It almost seems to me that how skilled you are is just how quickly you can overcome these walls. For example, I got around stage-4 boss of gunbird-2 on my second attempt and stage5 in about ten attempts. Now after seventy or so attempts at the game I have only reached stage-5 boss a few times.

[Arvandor]

I've been playing shmups a fair amount since the release of Ikaruga on the gamecube, and I still mostly suck. If anything over the past year or two I've noticed a lot of improvement, but I still basically suck overall.

So don't worry about it, having fun is all that matters. If I was worried about being good, I would have given up at playing shooters years ago.

[jp]

If you just want some 1CCs then I suggest checking into some Tecno Soft shmups. I know you recently got a Saturn, so the Thunder Force Gold Packs are definitely a good place to start. Also, if you don't mind fronting some money, Blast Wind (in theory)* is a very easy 1CC. Or you could get it old school and just get the Thunder Force games for the Genesis along with Elemental Master.

That said, the game that really opened my eyes to hitboxes and such was Radiant Silvergun. For some reason that was just where I honed the bullet grazing/pattern weaving skills.

Though playing stuff like Noiz2a and Warning Forever would probably help out a lot too. Any of those free bullet spam with super simple graphics and a glowing hit box will help you wrap your mind around the whole hitbox thing.

But then again, small hitboxes only apply to some shmups. What all is it you're playing now?


* - I say Blast Wind is easy in theory, because everytime I've allowed someone that ISN'T hardcore into shmups play it, they get annihilated in the first level. And I'm talking, people that can play the first level or two of Raiden III without dying. Oe the first level of Ikaruga. So... I'm not entirely certain how easy Blast Wind is in actuality. I think it starts on a medium difficulty and just kind of stays there, whereas most shmups rev up to a much harder difficulty by level 3 or 4.

[Necronopticous]

I've been playing shmups on and off for most of my life, but I only started getting heavily into them a few years ago. I think that the shmup genre inherently requires a lot more patience and persistence than many other, more popular genres (especially in the states).

Unlike most other genres of video games, actually "getting better" at shmup-type games in general will probably seem to come very slowly because every game is different. Sure there are similar patterns in some games, and you'll slowly develop strategies for certain types of recurring scoring systems, but other than that it's going to be slow for general improvement across the genre, unless you're some kind of autistic genius or something.

You mention credit feeding, and not having found a game that you can 1cc, and I get the impression that you are playing many different games over a short period of time. I think that these are all ingredients for discouragement. The best advice that I could give you from my personal experience is to find a shmup you love to play and play the hell out of it. Watch videos, memorize the stages, learn the scoring system, and just rock it whenever you feel like playing. Instead of continuing, just start from the beginning every time and learn from your mistakes. You're going to see improvement much quicker this way, and it's fun and encouraging to get to a new stage, or a new personal high score in this fashion.

Don't get frustrated! Have fun.

[shoe-sama]

Noiz2a and Warning Forever

no

parsec47

[unsane]

You mention credit feeding, and not having found a game that you can 1cc, and I get the impression that you are playing many different games over a short period of time.

Yup i noticed that too. koda, i'd venture a guess that if you had a timer on all the shmups you've played (MAME Plus!), you haven't hit 40 hours on even one of them. That's exactly howto not 1cc anything and feel like you suck at all of them.

[cajujoe]

Choose only one game, then memorize the levels...watch good players videos (like the insanity DVDs) and practice. Only this way you'll attain "pro" level. It's very hard... just like learning a instrument...

If you do not do this, you'll play like me...lot of credits. But this way is lots of fun too...

[shoe-sama]

shmups tend to have a "puzzle" element to them too

a bunch of simple patterns thrown together can make for really hard things to figure out lol

case in point: ddp stage 6 boss last pattern

not so much an issue in things with a zillion bombs but lol

[StoofooEsq]

Shmups were always favorites of mine, but I never showed extensive interest in them, despite the length of time that I've been reading Shmups and Shmups MK2 before 2002. It wasn't until I played some of the titles from Kenta Cho back in the same year (specifically Noiz2sa) that I began to heavily invest time in the genre.

Quickly, I realized that not all games in the Shump genre have to be as simple as gunning your way to the enemy base to blow away some formidable entity of EBIL and/or TEH DARK. Finding out about games with different scoring systems like DoDonPachi and Ikaruga has gained be the habit of sticking to one game at a time. As of now, I'm still trying to get Ship A-L's scoring chain in the first half of Stage 1 in DDP down pat so it becomes second nature every time I play. And even then, I don't fare well towards the second half of Stage 3 and usually get my ass kicked from that point on.

I consider myself decent enough at Shmups. I will almost always refuse the opportunity to continue through the game if I lose all of my lives -- with the exception of games like Gradius V and Ikaruga that record my score after losing my last life and allow me to continue to the end with no penalties (a feature I would like to see more often in Shmups). As of late, I'm wondering whether that habit is helping or hurting me at all in gaining skill.

In any case, no matter how much I get my ass kicked in a Shmup, I know that with continued persistence there will be eventual success for me. My discovery of this was 1CCing Gradius V on Normal, because of how much time I invested in practicing individual parts of stages that I had trouble with (my first step was managing to eliminate BlasterCannonCore without dying once, and that alone was a personal triumph for me), then following through with a full run of the game. After feeling incredible for managing to accomplish that, I basically realized one sure fact about all games in the Shmup genre in general: "Shit, all I have to do is actually try!"

And here I am.

[koda]

Thanks for the responses, everyone. It's definitely nice to hear your insight.

In regards to what I'm playing right now... it's true that I'm sort've dabbling in a bunch of different games, but there are a couple that I've put some serious effort into. I've put well over 40 hours into Ikaruga... I can get to the third stage on my first credit, but that's about it. If I want to beat the game I have to use like six or seven credits-- the fourth stage just annihilates me. I can chain the first stage, but that's as far as my scoring goes.

I've also been playing Border Down a fair amount since I got it. I probably haven't topped 40 hours, but I must be close. If I start green I can get to 3-C on my first credit... and 5-B is as far as I've been in the game.

I just installed MAME recently and I've been playing around with DoDonPachi and ESP Ra.De a bit... I think that I'll really be into Cave games, but I don't really like playing them via emulation... and I definitely can't afford PCBs right now. =) Around tax return time I plan on picking up a PS2. The bullet patterns that I've encountered in these games do seem to 'click' with me, though-- and yeah, I'm sure it's just a matter of practice.

It's not that I want to find a game I can 1CC... I wouldn't really feel any sense of accomplishment by hunting down the easiest shmup out there and beating it. I really like the element of high difficulty... it's just that I want to feel like I'm improving and making progress.

Anyways. Thanks again!

[overkill55]

lulz space bomber 1cc in liek 2 days

so if you wanna get good at shmups play space bomber

Moar liek Viper Phase 1 is the best game evar!1

[kengou]

Thanks for the responses, everyone. It's definitely nice to hear your insight.

In regards to what I'm playing right now... it's true that I'm sort've dabbling in a bunch of different games, but there are a couple that I've put some serious effort into. I've put well over 40 hours into Ikaruga... I can get to the third stage on my first credit, but that's about it. If I want to beat the game I have to use like six or seven credits-- the fourth stage just annihilates me. I can chain the first stage, but that's as far as my scoring goes.

I've also been playing Border Down a fair amount since I got it. I probably haven't topped 40 hours, but I must be close. If I start green I can get to 3-C on my first credit... and 5-B is as far as I've been in the game.

I just installed MAME recently and I've been playing around with DoDonPachi and ESP Ra.De a bit... I think that I'll really be into Cave games, but I don't really like playing them via emulation... and I definitely can't afford PCBs right now. =) Around tax return time I plan on picking up a PS2. The bullet patterns that I've encountered in these games do seem to 'click' with me, though-- and yeah, I'm sure it's just a matter of practice.

It's not that I want to find a game I can 1CC... I wouldn't really feel any sense of accomplishment by hunting down the easiest shmup out there and beating it. I really like the element of high difficulty... it's just that I want to feel like I'm improving and making progress.

Anyways. Thanks again!

If you want a better chance of 1CCing Ikaruga, set all the extends and stock to the easiest settings and play easy mode. Now, some people will say easy is harder than normal, but I have to disagree considering the bosss are all a lot tougher in normal than easy. Survival is easier in easy. Chaining might be a bit tougher though. I've only 1CCed it in this fashion, all easiest settings, but I still felt such an amazing feeling of accomplishment when that happened. It just feels great. I'm working on 1CCing easy mode now with default settings, but it's gunna take a little while (need to stop dying stupidly on 3 and 4).

[-Bridget-]

I got into this, maybe a year and a half ago, with Giga Wing.


When I first got into Giga Wing, I thought it was the hardest thing I'd yet seen. I mean, so many bullets! Even with the shield thing, it kept kicking my ass into the dirt.

And then I bought Mushihime on a whim, which made me think things like "wow, I'll never get good enough to beat this".


Fast forward to today.... I beat Giga Wing some time ago..... it's kinda easy now, but still awesome...... and I've beaten every mode in Mushi but Ultra. FINALLY killed the TLB in Arrange recently...... used to be I had trouble just getting to it! At one point, I thought just getting to the 5th boss was a major accomplishment! Now I can get there while only losing maybe 2 bombs if I do it right.


So.... hmmmm..... I think it took me maybe a year to get good enough to beat that damn boss.


Still fighting with Ultra, or DOJ's Death Label (argh!). Havent gotten around to beating Galuda yet (dunno why), and I should also get to finishing Progear as well.

[Hibou]

It's not that I want to find a game I can 1CC... I wouldn't really feel any sense of accomplishment by hunting down the easiest shmup out there and beating it. I really like the element of high difficulty... it's just that I want to feel like I'm improving and making progress.

You always have the solution to aim a good improvment at some particular games you like.

I mean, I like and play shmups sinces ages and, some time ago, my average surviving time for a first run on an unknown game was like stage 2 boss. Even after years, it has NOT improved to stage 4: it's still more or less the same. So, to a certain extent, I've not gained so much general skill in the genre.

However, I'm able to develop decent skills if I really concentrate on a game I like, and often I can 1cc it and reach pretty good scores in the end. Probably it takes me more time than some others, as I usually have to play every shmup like a memorizer in order to 1cc it. Apart from one or two very surprising exceptions like EspRaDe, it's usually a matter of months before I become really comfortable with a game.

You see, it's really easy to feel like you'll never reach great skills in the genre itself, and never will be able to learn a game fast. I personnally gived it up years ago. But you still can reach competent play on some particular games you're working enough. I probably would call me a bad shmuper but, every 6 months or so, I also can say that I'm good at this or that particular game.

So, if for the moment you feel a bit short on "pure skill" like I always feel myself, you could try to grab one or two games you like (that is, games that won't bore you), and then play them extensively for weeks or months. Dedication on one game makes improvment easier, gives you more fun (because you can try new things in the parts you master), more satisfaction (because even if the process is slow, you can see yourself scoring higher and see the 1cc approaching), and so stops you from feeling discouraged.

[RGC]

I'd argue stay away from replays until you've reached a reasonable level of competence alone. Simply learning how to copy someone else's techniques can undermine your enjoyment.

[shoe-sama]

there's a disturbing trend in shmups

final stages that have a zillion scoring opportunities

I always try to perfect scoring on the first few stages then when I get there I'm like HOLY SHIT WTF

When you think you already finished learning the game then it manages to throw all this new crap at you omgwtf

[moozooh]

In about half a year of frequent practice I've become "not that bad" at shmups, so I guess in another half a year I'll be alright.

[Randorama]

Think it's hopeless?

Uhhmmmm...

I try to memorize stages and patterns, I try to experiment with different types of controllers... what's next?

Must be that time of the year again.

You should sit down, understand how the game works, find out how you can solve the problem of survival, check if your reflexes can handle this minimal solution.

A little logic goes a long way, so think hard and then try to understand what you are supposed to do, if you don't want to be cornered. Of course, if you hate learning and thinking, you may have an impossible time to go anywhere.

[koda]

^ Yeah. As you've discovered, a few of the questions in my original post were rhetorical. Does this forum get an annual wave of lame people? Sorry for contributing to that.

This thread was meant to be more of a discussion on learning/skill curves rather than a "halp!?"... I just prompted the topic by means of recounting my own present situation. I probably could've gone about it in a better way.

Thanks for all the input, regardless.