What stick to buy: T-stick, Suzo, Sanwa...?

Elaphe · Post by **Elaphe** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:54 pm

I'm planning on building another arcade control panel. The one I'm using now has western/European-type controls, with concave pushbuttons and a IL's Mando Muelle / Ultimarc/s T-stick (spring, not magnetic). I like it very much because it has a short throw and therefore feels precise, despite de fact that it's not light to use.

Recently, however, I've read a lot of reports about the superiority of japanese arcade controls, specifically Sanwa sticks. I've tried them in Naomi cabinets and I must say that, although they're light, quick and with good return to center movement, I feel them not very precise, with a little longer throw and and a senseless feature: the stick keeps moving some millimetres after the microswitch has been pushed.

Maybe this is perfect for fighting games (I'm not an expert with these games). Pro gamers seem to use this kind of stick for tournaments. However, how could I play a shmup at my best with this kind of stick. That's why I'm dubious. I agree that japanese pushbuttons may be more effective since they are quicker to activate and have a faster response, but I'm not so sure about sticks, as I've explained.

I've heard about other sticks such as Ultimarc's Euro-stick (Suzo System 500), which is claimed to have a very short throw. Have you had the chance to try it?

I'd really like to know what sticks the masters of shmups use, even if they require some time to adapt. In the exhibitions of perfect matches you can see how quick and precise they are. I'm sure they could not achieve such performance without an optimal stick. However, at the moment, the idea in my mind is: the shorter the throw, the quicker and the more precise I'll perform. Am I wrong?

Edit: I've read some threads in this forum and I've found out that, surprisingly, you recomend the Mag stick, T-Stick and the Suzo over then Sanwas, and other japanese sticks. I've had the first two models. The mag stick is good, but, as you say, the return to center is slow and lacks precision, a fault which is totally fixed by the T-stick. I'm from Spain, so I had the chance to buy one from Industrias Lorenzo.

Now, I don't know if I should repeat with the same stick or I should go for the Suzo from Ultimarc. Can you tell me which has shorter throw. Does the Suzo has a squared, octogonal o rounded movement? I will use the stick mainly for shmups, and ocasionally for fighting games and other 2D arcades.

Finally, which japanese pushbuttons do you recomend for best performance with shmups: SEIMITSU PS-14-G (harder to activate) or SANWA OBSF-30 (very light to activate).

Thanx a lot!

beam · Post by **beam** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:36 pm

Seimitsu sticks are loved here : short throw is all you need for shmups.
I am using a stock Sanwa JLF-TP-8Y sanwa stick in a hrap with OBSF-30 and those buttons are the greatest ever made, especially when you need reactivity.
The stick is great but after more than a year with it I may go for a shorter throw one like the Seimitsu LS-32.

Elaphe · Post by **Elaphe** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:48 pm

As I said, I tried the Sanwa and the main problem was not the engagement, but the throw (the first is the distance until the switch is pressed and the latter is the total distance until the restrictor is touched). Someone said that it's just a matter of getting used to it, but I think it should pick up a stick with a engagement and throw at least as short as the ones in my T-stick. Maybe the Suzo is the best alternative. However, I've also read here that, even better than microswitched sticks, the best solutions are optical sticks. I don't know anything about them, so any information is appreciated.

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:34 am

I loves me my T-Stiks. Mag-Stiks are alright in a pinch, but the lack of a strong centering spring annoys me.

A word of warning, however. Until you get used to the stick, you'll probably be pressing hard into the stick, making it feel like the spring is much stronger than it is. Also, if you decide to go with a T-Stick, e-mail Andy from Ultimarc and get some light action switches.

As for optical/digital sticks, they're quite good. The Ultrastick allows you to program engagement distance, and a modded restrictor will take care of throw. However, it will still be basically a digital/analogue Sanwa.

The Suzo is also quite good, and runs along the same lines as the T/Mag Stik. Cheap, as well. I think bloodflowers swears by them...

There is a small group of us here who prefer them over JP-style sticks. Oddly enough, you're in the same position that I was in a few years ago. Annoyed with loose movement in Happ and JP sticks.

EDIT: Since you're from Spain and have access to IL, the light action switch is product X3C502K2MBJ32.

Elaphe · Post by **Elaphe** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:40 pm

Anyone here who has tried both the Suzo 500 and the Suzo Inductive can tell how they compare? (throw, engage, precision, stiffness, restrictor, etc.).

stuntman · Post by **stuntman** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:17 pm

If you already feel comfortable with the T-Stik then I suggest you stick with it (excuse the pun). I was using a Mag-Stik, and really liked it, but eventually had to concede that the return to centre pull was a bit weak - it's just as important to be able to stop quickly as it is to move - and haven't looked back since I got my T-Stik(s). I definitely feel more confident now manoeuvring in tight spaces.

Damocles, I might have to look into trying the light action switches you mentioned (not that the T-Stik in standard form isn't great already). Have you purchased any from Andy recently, as I can't see anything on the Ultimarc site? Perhaps they're an 'under the counter' item, and I should just email him!

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:32 pm

You'll have to email him directly, as they havn't been listed since the T-Stik was replaced. They're pretty cheap too, if I remember correctly.

EDIT: I'll throw this disclaimer in. Since engagement distance is so short, with the actuator touching all four switches at once, some tweaking to individual switches may be necessary. When I ordered a brand-spankin-new stick from...feck...that arcade website that sells custom aluminum handles and light up stuff.....nm.....when I bought a new T-Stik I had to tweak two of the switches. Oddly enough, with the first stick I bought, a 2nd-hand one, I encountered no problems.

Seriously, a quarter of each switch plunger is depressed when the stick is centered. Since the Mag-Stik requires heavy microswitches along with the magnet to center, light switches just wouldn't work.

Post by **system11** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:22 am

Elaphe wrote:Anyone here who has tried both the Suzo 500 and the Suzo Inductive can tell how they compare? (throw, engage, precision, stiffness, restrictor, etc.).

I have never tried the Inductive, but yes as someone above mentioned, I personally swear by Suzo 500s. I've always been idly curious to know what one of the JP Ninja Masters make of them, when faced with one on a DDP cab.

destructor · Post by **destructor** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:43 pm

All parameters in Polish language are there:
http://www.kowal.itcom.pl/ArcadeParts_p ... sticki.htm

Personally I played on shmups using J-Stik, TStik, P360, modified P360, U360.

Best reults are on non-microswitches joysticks. Best for me is modified P360. In my P360 modified is shaft (shorter than original) and actuator (larger diameter). MOre about modyfing P360 and other joysticks is on BYOAC forum.

PC Engine Fan X! · Post by **PC Engine Fan X!** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:12 pm

I've got a Dreamcast Agetech Arcade Stick that's been modded with Japanese Seimitsu joystick & push buttons -- world class Japanese arcade spec all the way -- is the perfect setup for playing those arcade shmup PCB titles + DC GD-Rom game titles via an external DC transcoder courtesy of oxtsu... ^_~

I do recall that oxtsu mentioned something about the Neo-Geo AES arcade stick controller using such very short-throw Seimitsu-based joystick setup (is different from the usual released arcade Seimitsu arcade joystick fare). Interesting if it's true... ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

Elaphe · Post by **Elaphe** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:37 pm

Destructor, that's the best site I've ever seen devoted to analyzing arcade controls. Simply incredible. The only problem is language. If you translate this into English, it would be the 1st site in my bookmarks list. Meanwhile, I think I'm going to learn Polish just to understand what's written there.

Post by **spadgy** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:10 pm

beam wrote:Seimitsu sticks are loved here : short throw is all you need for shmups.
I am using a stock Sanwa JLF-TP-8Y sanwa stick in a hrap with OBSF-30 and those buttons are the greatest ever made, especially when you need reactivity.
The stick is great but after more than a year with it I may go for a shorter throw one like the Seimitsu LS-32.

Is that in an HRAP3?

It's a long shot, but do you know that the LS-32 fits HRAP3's at all? Or is does it need to be the LS-32-01 (different mounting plate)? Sorry - so many questions!

EDIT: One more! - I assume the OBSF-30's would fit an HRAP3?

cody · Post by **cody** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:52 pm

here's a trials & tribulations on installing seimitsu stick in hrap2, not certain if hrap3 is same:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.ph ... ostcount=1

The buttons will not be a problem, they're standard size.

destructor · Post by **destructor** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:06 am

Elaphe wrote:Destructor, that's the best site I've ever seen devoted to analyzing arcade controls. Simply incredible. The only problem is language. If you translate this into English, it would be the 1st site in my bookmarks list. Meanwhile, I think I'm going to learn Polish just to understand what's written there.

Author this site work on it but it's not easy.