What is meant by "easy"?

[320x240]

- Is it that some games takes more time to master than others?
- Is it about the amount of challenge still present when you have already mastered it?

I guess both definitions could be used. Are there more? What are your opinions?

[shoe-sama]

time

the mastery issue plays a bit into that since you'll definitely clear a game faster if you can figure out what mechanics should be used/abused to reduce the difficulty level

[nimitz]

well, if a game took you longer to master its going to be more challenging than a game that took a short time to master...

I guess the question is: What do you mean by "mastering"?

[GaijinPunch]

"less difficult"

[PROMETHEUS]

A memorizer is hard because you need time to memorize it then ? I'd rather say a game is hard when you need a lot of skill (not just knowledge like memorizers) to play it well. If you're very skilled, you're going to need a lot less time to do well at many games, but it doesn't make them easier compared to a memorizer that will be just as hard regardless of your skill level.

[sven666]

Know it sounds funny
But I just can't stand the pain
Girl I'm leaving you tomorrow
Seems to me girl
You know I've done all I can
You see I begged, stole
And I borrowed
Ooh, that's why I'm easy

[Macaw]

yes

[Hibou]

A memorizer is hard because you need time to memorize it then ? I'd rather say a game is hard when you need a lot of skill (not just knowledge like memorizers) to play it well. If you're very skilled, you're going to need a lot less time to do well at many games, but it doesn't make them easier compared to a memorizer that will be just as hard regardless of your skill level.

Sounds true, but strangely I'm not sure to completely agree with that.

I mean, a good bunch of the games which primarily require skill can also be played like memorizers to a certain extent. For example I'm playing P-47 Aces at the moment, and at some too-difficult-for-me places I just move in completely fixed patterns (something like "stand 2 pixels from the sky, fly left then up when the big plane appears, left / right / left in rythm with the sounds, etc..."). Although this is not a glorious approach, it makes the game somewhat easier.

You see, I somehow feel that a bunch of "quite hard" games, which are not memorizers in the first place, can be a lot easier when played in a memorizing fashion and so can become easier than a well designed memorizer where the "true paths" would be a lot more hidden.

I would say a difficult game is a game designed so the balance of skill and knowledge can not be circumvented if you want to reach competent play. That is, a game where surviving primarily requires skill, scoring requires knowledge (and memorization) of the game to a good extent, and most of all the game is designed so surviving with "memorization tricks" forbids good scoring.

[Frederik]

"Rick Dangerous" must be the epitome of memorizers. But it´s not hard, it´s just ridiculously cheap. I´ve played a flash-based version of it recently and it was just not funny.

http://rickdangerousflash.free.fr/

Making a challenging game that still remains playable and fair must be a lot harder to do than an easy game.

[D]

loose

[PROMETHEUS]

Sounds true, but strangely I'm not sure to completely agree with that.

I mean, a good bunch of the games which primarily require skill can also be played like memorizers to a certain extent. For example I'm playing P-47 Aces at the moment, and at some too-difficult-for-me places I just move in completely fixed patterns (something like "stand 2 pixels from the sky, fly left then up when the big plane appears, left / right / left in rythm with the sounds, etc..."). Although this is not a glorious approach, it makes the game somewhat easier.

You see, I somehow feel that a bunch of "quite hard" games, which are not memorizers in the first place, can be a lot easier when played in a memorizing fashion and so can become easier than a well designed memorizer where the "true paths" would be a lot more hidden.

I would say a difficult game is a game designed so the balance of skill and knowledge can not be circumvented if you want to reach competent play. That is, a game where surviving primarily requires skill, scoring requires knowledge (and memorization) of the game to a good extent, and most of all the game is designed so surviving with "memorization tricks" forbids good scoring.

Of course, I'm pretty sure 99 or 100% of shmups are like that. Cave games require quite a bit of memorization and become a lot easier when memorized, but that's just how they're supposed to be played, and when you are playing them the way they have to be, they are still very hard and you need a lot of dodging and pattern reading skills... Whereas a memorizer is very easy to do when memorized, by definition.

[spadgy]

Easy is basically 'not hard', but I certainly prefer something hard to react to than hard to memorise.

[D]

Easy is basically 'not hard', but I certainly prefer something hard to react to than hard to memorise.

Me too. The ultimate of this being?..........................
F-Zero GX
There is an option for an on the fly generated random track.
So in this way even players that have memorized a certain track will need to be cautious and only the best will survive. For a shmups they should do this more as well. I feel that in most cases paterns are created based on rank and sometimes 3 enemies instead of 1 appear. So which real shmup has the most random paterns? Not looking for a ~shmup like tempest or something similar, but a real shmup.

[Frederik]

So which real shmup has the most random paterns? Not looking for a ~shmup like tempest or something similar, but a real shmup.

Parsec47

[nimitz]

So which real shmup has the most random paterns? Not looking for a ~shmup like tempest or something similar, but a real shmup.

or the Zanac/msx aleste series (the ones with the compile *A.I.*)

[shoe-sama]

A memorizer is hard because you need time to memorize it then ? I'd rather say a game is hard when you need a lot of skill (not just knowledge like memorizers) to play it well. If you're very skilled, you're going to need a lot less time to do well at many games, but it doesn't make them easier compared to a memorizer that will be just as hard regardless of your skill level.

Some people are capable of learning memorizers very quickly.

sikraiken had a no miss no bomb all of viper phase 1 within a few hours of play

The set of movements to memorize are usually easy to figure out. Pretty intuitive stuff.

Just have to pay close attention to where the trouble areas are.

[sikraiken]

All games are memorizers to some extent. Also, I am lazy/busy so how am I good at vidja games.

[Hibou]

Sounds true, but strangely I'm not sure to completely agree with that.

I mean, a good bunch of the games which primarily require skill can also be played like memorizers to a certain extent. For example I'm playing P-47 Aces at the moment, and at some too-difficult-for-me places I just move in completely fixed patterns (something like "stand 2 pixels from the sky, fly left then up when the big plane appears, left / right / left in rythm with the sounds, etc..."). Although this is not a glorious approach, it makes the game somewhat easier.

You see, I somehow feel that a bunch of "quite hard" games, which are not memorizers in the first place, can be a lot easier when played in a memorizing fashion and so can become easier than a well designed memorizer where the "true paths" would be a lot more hidden.

I would say a difficult game is a game designed so the balance of skill and knowledge can not be circumvented if you want to reach competent play. That is, a game where surviving primarily requires skill, scoring requires knowledge (and memorization) of the game to a good extent, and most of all the game is designed so surviving with "memorization tricks" forbids good scoring.

Of course, I'm pretty sure 99 or 100% of shmups are like that. Cave games require quite a bit of memorization and become a lot easier when memorized, but that's just how they're supposed to be played, and when you are playing them the way they have to be, they are still very hard and you need a lot of dodging and pattern reading skills... Whereas a memorizer is very easy to do when memorized, by definition.

You're probably right, Prometeus. But still... (even if this is a small "but")

Take Esp Ra De, for example. I remember when I first played it... It seemed to require skill and seemed hard to me after level 3 (using the little girl and the A button to select, for what it matters). But once I played it like a memorizer, it was just like a complete joke: four days for 1-lifing, and two weeks to get a poor but decent score on it (of course not a clover-tac, nor icarus, nor I suppose a score of yours after dedication... but still, a decent score).

Well designed memorizers, where an apperently good path can lead you to get trapped ten screens later, are more difficult to my mind. And most of all, games where you can't survive AND score with skill alone or memory alone (like Battle Garegga for example) really seem the hardest to me.

Please note that I really don't revendicate this as being the truth. But it may be a common feeling among so-so players like me (that is, players who can "solve skill-requiring games by memorizing them and solve memorizers by over-skilling them", but can't easy solve games requiring both skill and memorizing) .

[Herr Schatten]

<OT>

"Rick Dangerous" must be the epitome of memorizers. But it´s not hard, it´s just ridiculously cheap.

This is true for RD2 and for the majority of part 1, but there are some really difficult bits in the latter half of part 1. I vividly remember a triple jump you had to execute pixel-perfectly and you had to time it in a way that it started while Rick's sprite showed the "correct" frame of animation. Otherwise you'd simply fail it. Terrible level design that is.

Back in my Amiga days I memorized and played through all of RD2, but I was never able to finish part 1 in one go.

That said, surprisingly, I really had a lot of fun wasting hours of my life on memorizing the RD games.

</OT>

[J-Manic]

"Easy", to me, is a good opportunity for me to test the game out to get to know my weapons, ship's movement, scoring system and all that good stuff...before I actually start playing it.

[spadgy]

"Easy", to me, is a good opportunity for me to test the game out to get to know my weapons, ship's movement, scoring system and all that good stuff...before I actually start playing it.

I just find doing that makes 'normal' harder for me. Like learning to swim by jumping in the deep end...

[themachinist]

"Easy", to me, is a good opportunity for me to test the game out to get to know my weapons, ship's movement, scoring system and all that good stuff...before I actually start playing it.

I just find doing that makes 'normal' harder for me. Like learning to swim by jumping in the deep end...

Like starting Guitar Hero on normal made with only 4 buttons.

[Plasmo]

I cant think of a single shmup thats not a memorizer.
there is no skill involved in playing shmups as long as you have enough time.

[sikraiken]

I cant think of a single shmup thats not a memorizer.
there is no skill involved in playing shmups as long as you have enough time.

Part of the skill is memorization I'd say, though. : ) Besides that, you have to have some amount of skill in dealing with certain elements (such as suicide bullets for example) of the game that might not be 100% memorization. Also, your nerves can get to you. I think being alert and keeping your composure are also skills. I guess that could also fit under experience (which technically aids in your ability to memorize and understand certain concepts/approaches from game to game).

But yeah pretty much as long as you can stick with a game for long enough, consistently, you really should be able to approach the highest scores. I think sticking with a game for extended periods of time is the hardest part of all.

[Plasmo]

Suicide bullets might be random but you can still learn how to avoid them. Another thing where you really need skills are bossfights such as caves true last bosses.

I think sticking with a game for extended periods of time is the hardest part of all.

seconded!

[FIL]

Everything is easy once you know how to do it.

[sikraiken]

Everything is easy once you know how to do it.

No, execution is insane. Just knowing what to do is plain easy. : )

[Dragon1952]

Promiscuous from the first date!......oh you mean concerning shmups???

"entry level"

[PROMETHEUS]

Part of the skill is memorization I'd say, though. : ) Besides that, you have to have some amount of skill in dealing with certain elements (such as suicide bullets for example) of the game that might not be 100% memorization. Also, your nerves can get to you. I think being alert and keeping your composure are also skills. I guess that could also fit under experience (which technically aids in your ability to memorize and understand certain concepts/approaches from game to game).

What ? You guys think there is no skill like reading a pattern, creating a path through it and going through that path as accurately as possible ?

I think they're the main skills involved in playing shmups and I play them because I like that. It's about the only thing that's unique about shmups and it's what makes them great imo. The rest is nothing if you consider how much skill the best competitive games take in other genres.

[Erinu]

Easy = not challenging.