Dreamcast as a shmup console- overrated?

FIL · Post by **FIL** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:45 pm

The first Gunbird game? better than ESP.ra.de or DDP? even without playing for score?

Whatever you're smoking I want some.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:46 pm

evil_ash_xero wrote: I dunno man. I think a game needs to be fun first, with the scoring system second.

Oh not this again.

I seriously doubt that games like Gunbird are better than Esp Ra.de. or DoDonPachi because of some sort of scoring system.

They are better for their LACK of scoring system. I'm totally serious. Do it right or make a survival-based shooter.

evil_ash_xero · Post by **evil_ash_xero** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:51 pm

Rob wrote:
evil_ash_xero wrote: I dunno man. I think a game needs to be fun first, with the scoring system second.
Oh not this again.

I seriously doubt that games like Gunbird are better than Esp Ra.de. or DoDonPachi because of some sort of scoring system.
They are better for their LACK of scoring system. I'm totally serious. Do it right or make a survival-based shooter.

Well, obviously we come from two different schools of thought on this subject.

Let me ask you this, what score based games do you see as being looked at as lesser games, because of their lack of...umm...other good things besides scoring?

This is all going to go back to Psykio, isn't it?

s/m

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:52 pm

The awesome Giga Wing port (I prefer it to the same game in mame...), Border Down and Zero Gunner 2 make he DC a must have if there ever were one...

The rest are nice bonusses (but bonusses like Shiki 2 and GB2, even Trizeal and Ikaruga are one hell of great bonusses though...)

evil_ash_xero · Post by **evil_ash_xero** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:54 pm

Super Laydock wrote:The awesome Giga Wing port (I prefer it to the same game in mame...), Border Down and Zero Gunner 2 make he DC a must have if there ever were one...

The rest are nice bonusses (but bonusses like Shiki 2 and GB2, even Trizeal and Ikaruga are one hell of great bonusses though...)

I haven't had the chance to play Shikigami. I've wanted to, but haven't been able to "find" it.

I would have bought it, but I hear sorta mixed things about it, which keeps me from taking the plunge.

s/m

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:55 pm

evil_ash_xero wrote: Let me ask you this, what score based games do you see as being looked at as lesser games, because of their lack of...umm...other good things besides scoring?

Giga Wing Generations, then probably Psyvariar 2.

FIL · Post by **FIL** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:57 pm

I quite like Shiki, I haven't played it for score at all yet, but its pretty good to play on its own.

And not playing it for score allows you to use somebody other than Kuga.

evil_ash_xero · Post by **evil_ash_xero** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:59 pm

Rob wrote:
evil_ash_xero wrote: Let me ask you this, what score based games do you see as being looked at as lesser games, because of their lack of...umm...other good things besides scoring?
Giga Wing Generations, then probably Psyvariar 2.

Psyvariar...yeah, I had problems with it's look. I liked it's mechanics alright though. I would really like to see that company make another sequel to that, and kinda up the visuals. Not really in terms of power, but just design or whatever. I couldn't get the "they really liked the way Ikaruga looked, but couldn't pull it off" out of my head while playing it.

GWG, never played it, but I thought Giga Wing on MAME was decent fun.

s/m

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:01 pm

evil_ash_xero wrote:
Super Laydock wrote:The awesome Giga Wing port (I prefer it to the same game in mame...), Border Down and Zero Gunner 2 make he DC a must have if there ever were one...

The rest are nice bonusses (but bonusses like Shiki 2 and GB2, even Trizeal and Ikaruga are one hell of great bonusses though...)
I haven't had the chance to play Shikigami. I've wanted to, but haven't been able to "find" it.

I would have bought it, but I hear sorta mixed things about it, which keeps me from taking the plunge.

s/m

Do not doubt on this game. GC and PS2 versions are fine as well (possibly cheaper). But on either of these systems...it' a must have for sure... Shiki 2 that is.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:15 pm

scoring interferes with practice (scoring + survival in later stages) if you're OCD and reset after failing some 1000 point trick in stage 1 lulz

neoalphazero · Post by **neoalphazero** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:41 pm

Aside from the PS2, it's the only system with a decent selection of shooters last gen and a few original to boot, whereas the Cube and Xbox had a few Naomi ports already available on DC. Definitely get the play out of my system. *-neo

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:49 pm

Rob wrote:They are better for their LACK of scoring system. I'm totally serious. Do it right or make a survival-based shooter.

I don't see how you can put down cave's titles for their scoring system while touting Mars Matrix and Giga Wing, both of which have scoring systems that are at least as anal as DOJ.

Nuke · Post by **Nuke** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:03 am

neoalphazero wrote:Aside from the PS2, it's the only system with a decent selection of shooters last gen and a few original to boot, whereas the Cube and Xbox had a few Naomi ports already available on DC. Definitely get the play out of my system. *-neo

Quoted for truth!
Also, my favorite system ever, I even love the oversized controller and the loud disk reader!

MX7 · Post by **MX7** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:07 am

This is so funny. All this Dreamcast fanboyism actually being called into scrutiny...

Please keep this thread going until I get back from holiday!

DEL · Post by **DEL** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:26 am

This is so funny. All this Dreamcast fanboyism actually being called into scrutiny...

That's a first for me, I've never heard of Dreamcast fanboyism...ever.
The only fanboyism I've come across is for Cave and the Neo Geo system.

Anyway, enjoy Praha

.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:27 am

MX7 wrote:This is so funny. All this Dreamcast fanboyism actually being called into scrutiny...

I couldn't care less what system a game is on. New DC releases got old years ago 'cause they started to suck a ton. It still has high quality stuff and is not in any way "overrated." It's not like it's unanimously agreed to be great or the best system for shooters. Name anyone who would say the latter after Kron.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:45 am

Zebra Airforce wrote:I don't see how you can put down cave's titles for their scoring system while touting Mars Matrix and Giga Wing, both of which have scoring systems that are at least as anal as DOJ.

I don't tout Giga Wing's scoring system. It is more about bullet reflecting. These games need fresh ideas to trick me into wasting hundreds of hours memorizing stage layouts. That is where I think Takumi is great. Bullet manipulating is still fresh and utilizes the main feature of bullet hell games. Enemy chaining does not and is as fresh as the first game with enemy chaining (was it 70s or 80s?).

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:57 am

end of stage bonus based on destruction rate

INSTANT WIN

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:06 am

Rob wrote:Enemy chaining does not and is as fresh as the first game with enemy chaining (was it 70s or 80s?).

you tell me

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:12 am

Hell if I know, I'm not finished playing all of those crappy games yet. Sometime before most of us played Life Force.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:12 am

RAIZING MEDAL CHAINS

or even better...

EIGHT FORCES

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:16 am

Item chains are different beasts. No relation to 8ing BEASTORIZER.

it290 · Post by **it290** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:18 am

Resurrection from halfway through the thread here, but I just had to commen t on this:

As for GRev, who I think make the best shooters on the DC besided Treasure(but are WAY below them)...I'm not a huge fan. I mean, they're good, but I was disappointed. Under Defeat was too simple. What I mean by that, is that it could have used more power-ups or attacks. I know you have those time-limit options, but I think it could have used some more weapons. It's a good game, but it's not really all that big of a deal to ME.

The simplicity of Under Defeat is what makes it so appealing (to me) and different from other shooters. There are zillions of really complex games out there, so an extremely simple system which still manages to reward risk in an interesting way without requiring the player to think about managing weapons extensively or master complicated scoring tricks is a breath of fresh air. IMO it is easily the best exclusive shooter on the DC.

KBZ · Post by **KBZ** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:03 am

"Shoot the core, but play to score!"
-Miletsone

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:02 am

jpj wrote:
Rob wrote:Enemy chaining does not and is as fresh as the first game with enemy chaining (was it 70s or 80s?).
you tell me

Enemy chaining: Galaxian (circa '79)
Item chaining: Defender (circa '80)

There have been several topics on influential shooters on this forum...

On topic: They should've made the DC backwards compatible with the Saturn!

EDIT: Space Invaders (circa '78 ) also had a form of chaining and is the earliest I can think of...

Erinu · Post by **Erinu** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:34 am

Kingbuzzo wrote:"Shoot the core, but play to score!"
-Miletsone

Stupid.

lewisit · Post by **lewisit** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:23 pm

overrated or not - the DC is the only console that i own and i play mostly shooters on it

so for me it's def. a shmup-console

clp · Post by **clp** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:00 pm

yep its all prefernce i have a jap ps2 and dcast and find myself using the dreamcast alot more personally prefer the titles on it , vgas a bonus to .

neist · Post by **neist** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:12 pm

I dunno..

I mean, I am new to this whole modern shmup'ing world, but after some extensive studying on what system I should buy to get myself up to date, I did finally decide on a Dreamcast.

Why? Well after dragging these boards for a while, Ive more or less managed to get a idea of what the main developers out there are. Then, I researched each major game they release and what platform it was on (afterwhich I found videos of gameplay via youtube). Granted, I havent played these games yet, but the majority of intersting titles that were also fairly affordable was on the Dreamcast. Some of the PS2 games looked really good, but a quick check on ebay quickly set my sights away from those games (Zanac X Zanac comes to mind...).

If nothing else they do have a few nice titles along with Ikaruga, and the import version of Ikaruga goes for SUBSTANTIALLY less than the US Gamecube version. About half the price, actually. Couple this with the ability of Dreamcasts being readily available, cheap, and connective with a CRT monitor, they really were the smartest investment for someone like myself.

In fact, I would dare say its the smartest investment I could make for shmups if I didnt want to pick up a Japanese console or arcade machine.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:17 pm

Kron wrote:The thing which is going to lead to the stagnation of the genre is the constant reliance on Cave and the Gradius series from people like yourself who claim to be fans of the genre but have no interest beyond the shmup equivalent of Halo and GTA.

Halo actually introduced an interesting mechanic for first person shooters -- while the gameplay itself is trash, it introduced the "regenerating health" system, which sped up the pace of a first person shooter by removing the health scavenger hunt and introduced a true "critical amount of damage" required to die. This trend in design is similar to the drive for smaller hitboxes to increase the amount of bullets thrown at you in shooter development.

This doesn't work very well in multiplayer if the potential for a single player never dying is there, though it allows for one-hit kill weapons in multiplayer without ever feeling cheap.