Dreamcast as a shmup console- overrated?

[Zebra Airforce]

And the music is obscenely horrible.

Your credibility just went straight out of the window.

[shoe-sama]

So, that leaves you with Psikyo fare such as Zero Gunner 2 and Gunbird. I don't see the big deal with those games.

ZOMGZ ZG2

[Kron]

The only thing that really annoys me is that the internet and the U.K games press keeps on advocating the Dreamcast as "the console for shooters, lol", when this really doesn't take into account the huge multiplicity of sub-genres that exist in the STG genre. By perpetuating this discourse, everyone seems to think that the DC is the be all and end all of the scene, which of course leads to the stagnation of our favourite genre.

The irony is off the scale.

The thing which is going to lead to the stagnation of the genre is the constant reliance on Cave and the Gradius series from people like yourself who claim to be fans of the genre but have no interest beyond the shmup equivalent of Halo and GTA.

[shoe-sama]

The thing which is going to lead to the stagnation of the genre is the constant reliance on Treasure from people like yourself who claim to be fans of the genre but have no interest beyond the shmup equivalent of Halo and GTA.

fixed

get the overhyped games right lol

[dmauro]

It also has Triggerheart Exelica, which I know not everyone loves, but it's fun and unique. Pair that with the other shmups I play on it (mostly just Mars Matrix and Under Defeat) and VGA output and it's a great system for shmups.

[FIL]

I quite like Triggerheart Exelica, I wouldn't want to pay the £60 or so that online retailers are trying to charge for it though.

[evil_ash_xero]

I'm sure as soon as Radiant Silvergun gets emulated we'll see a thread just like this regarding the Saturn.

I don't think so. Battle Garegga, Soukyugurentai, Layer Section, Radiant Silvergun, Batsugun are the cream of the crop. Then you can get games like Salamander 2 and Cotton 2 that are good, but not of that level. The DonPachi games are great, but you should really have the PS1 versions.

I think the Saturn is definitely a recommendable system for shmups fans.

But I think a modded PS2 is just as good, with it's backwards compatibility and the cool Cave games and Gradius V on it. DonPachi, DoDonPachi, Einhander, Salamander 2, Gradius Gaiden, R-Type Delta, In The Hunt, and some others. Pretty sweet.

s/m

[evil_ash_xero]

I see that the Dreamcast has a lot of shooters, but other than Ikaruga, i'm not really into them.

I can see how this is just a matter of personal taste. But i'll stick by my guns. I just don't see the calibur of shmups on the DC as high as the shmups on a modded PS2 or Saturn. So, I don't see why it's always mentioned over these.

As for GRev, who I think make the best shooters on the DC besided Treasure(but are WAY below them)...I'm not a huge fan. I mean, they're good, but I was disappointed. Under Defeat was too simple. What I mean by that, is that it could have used more power-ups or attacks. I know you have those time-limit options, but I think it could have used some more weapons. It's a good game, but it's not really all that big of a deal to ME.

Border Down lacks a little in certain areas. I can't quite put my finger on what. It obviously reminds me a bit of Darius Gaiden(which I didn't like much either). I do like the gameplay mechanics with the tracer lasers and big laser shot, and whatnot. That's good. I guess it's just the enemy placement and stage design maybe? It's OK, but I like Under Defeat better. Now if you mixed the polish of Under Defeat with the gameplay mechanics of Border Down, then i'd be more excited. lol

Well, that's my opinion.

s/m

[MX7]

The thing which is going to lead to the stagnation of the genre is the constant reliance on Cave and the Gradius series from people like yourself who claim to be fans of the genre but have no interest beyond the shmup equivalent of Halo and GTA.

Well, I disagree with you completely. Cave have always stuck to their guns, and as such are now just publishing in Japan, purely on PCB's. Sound a bit like the mass market proliferation of Halo and GTA? No? Good. However, G.Rev and other dev teams more commonly assosiated with the Dreamcast continue to make games in an overtly classical style, in order to attempt to net mass market appeal, and have even had home console ports outside of Japan, something Cave have never accieved.

So I'm not really sure where your anaology was derived from.

[evil_ash_xero]

The thing which is going to lead to the stagnation of the genre is the constant reliance on Treasure from people like yourself who claim to be fans of the genre but have no interest beyond the shmup equivalent of Halo and GTA.

fixed

get the overhyped games right lol

Man, other than some newbie-ish problems in Radiant Silvergun(which is an excellent game), Treasure's shooters are mind-blowing. I can't recommend them enough to anyone who's a fan of shooters and have missed them. Radiant and Ikaruga are very unique games and Gradius V is the best side-scrolling shooter ever.

What problems do you have with them? And please don't say "chaining". They made like two games that used this as a scoring system, and I certainly don't think they overdid that mechanic as of this point.

My only problem with Treasure's shooting department, is that they don't make enough of the damn games!

s/m

[shoe-sama]

lol I was just making fun of Kron's failure at using analogies

I do indeed hate RSG and Ikaruga for chaining like you inferred though lol

[evil_ash_xero]

I disagree with you..but I like your avatar.

s/m

[shoe-sama]

lolthx

[Kron]

lol I was just making fun of Kron's failure at using analogies

And what about your failure of understanding the point being made?

[shoe-sama]

The thing which is going to lead to the stagnation of the genre is the constant reliance on Treasure from people like yourself who claim to be fans of the genre but have no interest beyond the shmup equivalent of Halo and GTA.

fixed

get the overhyped games right lol

wut failure

And your point is stupid ZOMGZ

caves games aren't madden

[Kron]

My point was never about whats overhyped so yeah, Failure.

[shoe-sama]

you used it as support for the genre's stagnation so ufail

[Rob]

I just don't see the calibur of shmups on the DC as high as the shmups on a modded PS2

Wow, you're serious.

What are all of these great PS2 shooters I missed - I always like a quality new shooter. I did miss Psikyo's take on Choaniki. Aside from Cave games and Gradius, which PS2 shooters do you like?

[Kron]

you used it as support for the genre's stagnation so ufail

When you gain the ability to read properly you'll see the reason I put for the genre's stagnation was due to the consumers not appreciating the games which tried something different and their choice in supporting an incredibly shallow pool of established brands or singular companies.

[shoe-sama]

you used it as support for the genre's stagnation so ufail

When you gain the ability to read properly you'll see the reason I put for the genre's stagnation was due to the consumers not appreciating the games which tried something different and their choice in supporting an incredibly shallow pool of established brands or singular companies.

oh so you're saying they just play the overhyped games and pay little attention to the more obscure gems out there?

[Rob]

I see that the Dreamcast has a lot of shooters, but other than Ikaruga, i'm not really into them.

Also, why is it so important that we understand how limited your interest is?

Yea, I'm gonna go there: if the PS2 Cave ports are SOO great, what are your scores in them? Or do you not like scoring systems? That would explain criticism beginning and ending with (gfx) polish.

I agree almost every DC shooter is a little ugly. Early 00s 3D is more hideous to me than late PS 3D, but I still put a lot of time into playing them.

[Kron]

oh so you're saying they just play the overhyped games and pay little attention to the more obscure gems out there?

No, Because according to this thread and many other as similar the people on here seem to think the DC titles are the overhyped ones.

[evil_ash_xero]

I just don't see the calibur of shmups on the DC as high as the shmups on a modded PS2

Wow, you're serious.

What are all of these great PS2 shooters I missed - I always like a quality new shooter. I did miss Psikyo's take on Choaniki. Aside from Cave games and Gradius, which PS2 shooters do you like?

Yes, I am serious. But I meant it as PS2 with BACKWARD COMPATIBILITY. Which means taking into account PS1's shmups, which I pointed out quite clearly, I thought. So, the PS2's Cave games, plus GV, plus the PS1's shmup catalogue is a must for shmup fans.

s/m

[evil_ash_xero]

I see that the Dreamcast has a lot of shooters, but other than Ikaruga, i'm not really into them.

Also, why is it so important that we understand how limited your interest is?

Yea, I'm gonna go there: if the PS2 Cave ports are SOO great, what are your scores in them? Or do you not like scoring systems? That would explain criticism beginning and ending with (gfx) polish.

I agree almost every DC shooter is a little ugly. Early 00s 3D is more hideous to me than late PS 3D, but I still put a lot of time into playing them.

Rob, you're such a troll.

But seriously, I point out my interest in them, so I can make sure one understands that some may like it, but not me. Some people say "this game sucks", rather than "I don't like this game, but a lot of people do". so, I guess i'm trying to do the latter.

I don't play for scoring.

As for graphical polish...what the hell? If you actually read the games I dig, that critique you just threw at me isn't really valid. Yeah, R-Type Delta and Einhander's polygon's are mouthwatering, aren't they? Also, I didn't just mean gfx polish. I meant overall polish. I just thought Under Defeat was better put together than Border Down, although I liked Border Down's gameplay mechanics better. And that's the ONLY game I mentioned in terms of polish.

Are you even reading my entire posts, or just skimming them?

s/m

[Rob]

I don't play for scoring.

Well what can I say. Almost any valid criticism of modern shooters has to include their scoring systems. That's what they are about.

Yeah, Einhander looks a lot better than almost every Naomi/Type X shooter.

[shoe-sama]

thats why chaining shooters are stupid lol

[evil_ash_xero]

I don't play for scoring.

Well what can I say. Almost any valid criticism of modern shooters has to include their scoring systems. That's what they are about.

Yeah, Einhander looks a lot better than almost every Naomi/Type X shooter.

Well, i'm able to enjoy these games just fine without paying attention to scoring. I guess it's just me.

s/m

[shoe-sama]

I like to do retarded things for extra points.

[Rob]

shoe-sama, this isn't IRC.

Well, i'm able to enjoy these games just fine without paying attention to scoring. I guess it's just me.

It's not. That's why Cave games have the widest appeal. They don't have to have great scoring ideas, 'cause most people don't care. You can play them like a Toaplan game and they have colorful drawings.

It goes without saying the DC is mainly for people who play for score. It is not well rounded, but anyone with serious interest should own one.

[evil_ash_xero]

shoe-sama, this isn't IRC.

Well, i'm able to enjoy these games just fine without paying attention to scoring. I guess it's just me.

It's not. That's why Cave games have the widest appeal. They don't have to have great scoring ideas, 'cause most people don't care. You can play them like a Toaplan game and they have colorful drawings.

It goes without saying the DC is mainly for people who play for score. It is not well rounded, but anyone with serious interest should own one.

I dunno man. I think a game needs to be fun first, with the scoring system second. Of course if you play for score, then that argument is worthless. I mainly look into fun factor/graphical design/music as what matters most in a shmup to me.

I seriously doubt that games like Gunbird are better than Esp Ra.de. or DoDonPachi because of some sort of scoring system.

OR ARE THEY?! bum bum bum

s/m