So, say Ketsui got mamed tomorrow...

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:42 am

neorichieb1971 wrote:If I see something running on MAME, its a copy. If I have the PCB, I feel like an art collector. Hmm, don't know if I'm explaining it too well. Think of it this way, you can buy a $5 watch by timex, or you can pay $1000 for a Grand father clock, they both tell the time. But its your choice if you want something important to you to come in a big or small package.

That's probably the worst analogy ever. The workings of MAME and other emulators are just as much a programming feat as any of the games you might play on them.

Necronom · Post by **Necronom** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:08 pm

bcass wrote:
neorichieb1971 wrote:If I see something running on MAME, its a copy. If I have the PCB, I feel like an art collector. Hmm, don't know if I'm explaining it too well. Think of it this way, you can buy a $5 watch by timex, or you can pay $1000 for a Grand father clock, they both tell the time. But its your choice if you want something important to you to come in a big or small package.
That's probably the worst analogy ever. The workings of MAME and other emulators are just as much a programming feat as any of the games you might play on them.

Yeah, the analogy is pretty funny. Especially because the content you're speaking about is digital, so it's always a copy...unless you develop a strange fetish for the PCB itself and not the game in it

Also when buying a painting by a still living artist, he usually also gets paid and not just some gallery. How many times do the people buy PCBs from the creators themselves?
Btw, Grand father clocks for 1000$ are usually handmade which means that it's the process of making them that sets them apart from some industrial massproduction...

Post by **spadgy** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:08 pm

Necronom wrote:
bcass wrote:
neorichieb1971 wrote:If I see something running on MAME, its a copy. If I have the PCB, I feel like an art collector. Hmm, don't know if I'm explaining it too well. Think of it this way, you can buy a $5 watch by timex, or you can pay $1000 for a Grand father clock, they both tell the time. But its your choice if you want something important to you to come in a big or small package.
That's probably the worst analogy ever. The workings of MAME and other emulators are just as much a programming feat as any of the games you might play on them.
Yeah, the analogy is pretty funny. Especially because the content you're speaking about is digital, so it's always a copy...unless you develop a strange fetish for the PCB itself and not the game in it
Also when buying a painting by a still living artist, he usually also gets paid and not just some gallery. How many times do the people buy PCBs from the creators themselves?
Btw, Grand father clocks for 1000$ are usually handmade which means that it's the process of making them that sets them apart from some industrial massproduction...

I agree that it's a crappy analogy, but I guess it has something to it; both have their place and their advantages, and do the same job in a different way.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:11 pm

with regards to AMI and copyright, you could draw parallels to the music industry. a lot of bands/artists own the rights to their back catalogue. but yeah, it's very wise of cave to have a third party take the financial risk. however, their biggest threat would be if AMI one day thought cave PCB's weren't profitable...

as for PCB sales, i've bought a few cave boards new.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:22 pm

well, it depends on what distribution model they are using, the music industry has many variations. (this months wired has a good feature on this very subject BTW)

MX7 · Post by **MX7** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:25 pm

WHAT, KETSUI'S GETTING MAMED TOMORROW????!!!!

FIL · Post by **FIL** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:53 pm

Yes, sell your PCB immediately.

PPA · Post by **PPA** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:22 am

FIL wrote:Yes, sell your PCB immediately.

im offering 1$

cool.sammy · Post by **cool.sammy** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:45 am

Seems like nearly always, PCB kits or so called 'B' boards are most expensive at the time of release. Some more than others, and some stay up longer, but they almost always fall. There's exceptions of course, but generally it's what happens. You could easily find most cave PCBs in playable condition in the 200-300 range. Sometimes less, sometimes more.

Ok, yes I realize it's not good to buy 200-300 dollar toys every week

But I don't think anyone is going to retire on reselling their Cave or Raizing boards. Unless something horrible happens and the ROMs all explode, and everyone's MAME dumps and the original code simultaneously vanish from the face of the earth, except for one guy and his 39 copies of Espgaluda II.

Radiant · Post by **Radiant** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:35 am

here is one of the first panic sales on yahoo.....already 930$ for a PCB only...3 days to go....

http://page10.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/m52196193

Dandy J · Post by **Dandy J** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:36 am

There's no way that's a panic sale when there's been like no news of the actual dump coming along.

Radiant · Post by **Radiant** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:26 am

ok...

elvis · Post by **elvis** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:40 am

jpj wrote:mame is wank.

Priceless.

EOJ wrote:It is right. The slowdown is never perfectly emulated no matter what you do. It has nothing to do with refresh rates, etc.

Got any scientific evidence to back that up?

I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing, just questioning how you came to the conclusion. You're going to have to forgive me for not taking your word.

If anyone would like to prove or disprove the statement, I suggest following NKI's example here:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=144797

In much the same vein, there has been much verbal warfare over the last few years over the quality of various home ports of 2D fighting games. After much mouthing off by both camps, the entire argument was put to rest courtesy of some scientific method by NKI. For that, he has my eternal respect. I'm not terribly concerned with the outcome, so much as the fact that it is provable by scientific method, and not by internet conjecture.

I invite anyone with access to PCBs and MAME (using correct setups with tools like AdvanceMAME, and not Windows MAME running on a 60Hz LCD upscaled to buggery) to do the same sorts of things as NKI has done.

At the moment my personal PCB collection doesn't extend to Cave shooters (I have three kids, a mortgage, and work three jobs, and don't have the money nor time for such frivolity). When I finally do get the cash for a DDP board, the first thing I'll be doing is replicating NKI's testing methods for both some fighting games and shooters.

Again, anyone else who wants to do the same will certainly have my full attention. Arguing back and forth on a forum is a waste of everyone's time. Scientific analysis is the only way these sorts of things are proven or debunked.

ON TOPIC:

SuperPang wrote:...how many of you would sell your PCBs?

I'm curious because this theory keeps cropping up that owners of undumped PCBs only own them because 1) they like to be leet and 2) they can't play them emulated, and I was under the impression that's BS created by envoius fools and we'd want the real thing anyway.

I collect Sega Master System, Sega Megadrive and Super Nintendo/Famicom consoles and games. All of them have been emulated (and I regularly play these emulators too). Will I ever sell my games? No. I enjoy playing them, and don't buy them to hoard with intent to make a fortune on resale. Emulation and collecting can live side by side happily, and some collectors still collect for the right reasons.

Dandy J · Post by **Dandy J** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:05 am

Radiant wrote:ok...

i.......teh bamboozler............have been................bamboozled............................no..............

Keade · Post by **Keade** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:56 pm

Everyone knows MAME is a joke. It's useless, it doesn't keep old games alive, doesn't help to prevent the loss of games data before all copies die, and doesn't help either with providing people an arcade games experience at an age where the arcade completely died (at least outside Japan).
.
.
Does it ?

Post by **spadgy** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:05 pm

Keade wrote:Everyone knows MAME is a joke. It's useless, it doesn't keep old games alive, doesn't help to prevent the loss of games data before all copies die, and doesn't help either with providing people an arcade games experience at an age where the arcade completely died (at least outside Japan).
.
.
Doesn't it ?

(warning : that post was a joke)

Even though I used to have fairly strong anti-Mame sentiments (until I was shown the error of my ways by wise fellow shmup forum members), and even though I'm still not a user of Mame at all, I'm pretty sure 'everyone knows MAME is a joke' is a slight over exaggeration. Otherwise why would people use it, and why would it be so popular, and why would we have so many heated debates here about it here?

I'm pretty sure they don't use it for a cheap laugh at how crap they all think it is, and I'm certain they aren't dedicated crap enthusiasts, and I'm fairly sure Dave K's amazing Mame cab isn't a joke.

In fact, I think they like it...

Keade · Post by **Keade** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:10 pm

My post was irony, and so was the "everyone knows MAME is a joke".
I probably overreacted, and I actually wanted to delete my post, but too late now.

Btw for the input lag test (interesting test), how could you know the input delay of the 'real thing' ?

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:16 pm

Keade wrote:My post was irony, and so was the "everyone knows MAME is a joke".
I probably overreacted, and I actually wanted to delete my post, but too late now.

americans still don't get irony means

but seriously, mame is free. it's like finding a pikey who'll bemoan dodgy dvd's...

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:19 pm

That's still a crap analogy. MAME is not the dodgy DVD of the gaming world.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:20 pm

that's not what i said, is it

Dandy J · Post by **Dandy J** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:27 pm

Keade wrote: Btw for the input lag test (interesting test), how could you know the input delay of the 'real thing' ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8wGYtqnd1A

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:29 pm

jpj wrote: americans still don't get irony means

There was an internet joke about that, where an American went to the UK, and one of the locals told him "nice weather" when it was pissing down rain. Remember that one? Damn, gotta dig that up. Hilarious.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:54 pm

haven't seen that, but i can believe it

post it up if you find it

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:02 am

I think he's pulling your leg...

Dandy J wrote:
Keade wrote: Btw for the input lag test (interesting test), how could you know the input delay of the 'real thing' ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8wGYtqnd1A

That's still not conculsive. For example, how is he connecting his joystick to his PC? There are a number of software layers between an external input device on a PC. Quite a bit more testing would be required to confirm 100% that the fault lies with the emulator. I've seen lag first hand, not just with emulators, but with original PC games, which was down to the type of adaptor I was using (in this case, it was a USB > PS2 adaptor).

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:05 am

From memory:

An American on a recent business trip to England was a bit confused when, walking outside on a rather British rainy day, was told by a fellow "Hey, nice weather". After careful deliberation he realized that the Englishmen's comment was a joke, and he in fact did not think the weather was nice... the polar opposite as it were. The American told himself he would try this brand of humor, sarcasm, when he got home.

The following weekend, the American was hosting a barbecue at his suburban home. After staying away from the grill a bit too long he completely burned all the hamburgers. As he had no left overs, he simply made due, handing them out to his friends saying, "Hey, nice weather".

Okay, it was about sarcasm, not irony. Still funny though.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:07 am

jpj wrote: americans still don't get irony means

Shouldn't you be drinking tea and eating crumpets instead of posting stereotypical trash like this?

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:09 am

Don't diss crumpets, or potato cakes for that matter.

An American on a recent business trip to England was a bit confused when, walking outside on a rather British rainy day, was told by a fellow "Hey, nice weather". After careful deliberation he realized that the Englishmen's comment was a joke, and he in fact did not think the weather was nice... the polar opposite as it were. The American told himself he would try this brand of humor, sarcasm, when he got home.

The following weekend, the American was hosting a barbecue at his suburban home. After staying away from the grill a bit too long he completely burned all the hamburgers. As he had no left overs, he simply made due, handing them out to his friends saying, "Hey, nice weather".

LOL.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:10 am

that is pretty funny

Dandy J · Post by **Dandy J** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:43 am

bcass wrote:I think he's pulling your leg...

Dandy J wrote:
Keade wrote: Btw for the input lag test (interesting test), how could you know the input delay of the 'real thing' ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8wGYtqnd1A
That's still not conculsive. For example, how is he connecting his joystick to his PC? There are a number of software layers between an external input device on a PC. Quite a bit more testing would be required to confirm 100% that the fault lies with the emulator. I've seen lag first hand, not just with emulators, but with original PC games, which was down to the type of adaptor I was using (in this case, it was a USB > PS2 adaptor).

Use the keyboard.

elvis · Post by **elvis** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:00 am

bcass wrote:I think he's pulling your leg...

Dandy J wrote:
Keade wrote: Btw for the input lag test (interesting test), how could you know the input delay of the 'real thing' ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8wGYtqnd1A
That's still not conculsive. For example, how is he connecting his joystick to his PC? There are a number of software layers between an external input device on a PC. Quite a bit more testing would be required to confirm 100% that the fault lies with the emulator. I've seen lag first hand, not just with emulators, but with original PC games, which was down to the type of adaptor I was using (in this case, it was a USB > PS2 adaptor).

For starters, there are no PCs used in that video. NKI uses an arcade button controllers direct-wired to (1) the original CPS2 PCB, (2) A hacked Genuine Sega Dreamcast controller, (3) A hacked genuine Sony PS1 gamepad (digital buttons, not the analogue PS2 dual shock). His test methodology is outlined in the Shoryuken forum threads linked from the video, if you want to read them in detail (which you should, before asking such questions).

If you were testing MAME, you'd use AdvanceMAME on Linux or DOS using SVGALib with either a USB controller, or a hardware PS/2 (as in, the keyboard standard, not "PlayStation 2") connected device like Keywiz or iPAC. The reasons are simple: this is the only way you're going to get even close to matching the specs of a real PCB. MAME on Windows has so many layers of HAL (Harware Abstraction Layers) between it and the game that your results would be way off the charts. Similarly, using any sort of console->USB converter is going to add delay (this is basic physics - nothing is instantaneous).

Again, when the day arrives that I'll obtain my DDP board, I will be replicating these tests using NKI's methodology. To date these have been the most accurate and most trustworthy test methods, and provide data that people can't argue their way out of. (As much as I totally respect Dave Sirlin for everything he's done, these proved CCC2 on PS2 has a flaw, and he's been unable to argue the alternative courtesy of this data).

These tests are indeed conclusive. Again, read the linked Shoryuken forum threads and you'll see why they are.