Dreamcast as a shmup console- overrated?

[evil_ash_xero]

I'm going to give my opinion here, so don't slit my throat. I know a lot of people like the Dreamcast, and always seem to recommend it to people new to shmups. My question is: WHY?

I have had a Dreamcast since launch, and have just recently started playing some of the shmups that are always recommended for this machine.

I just don't see the big deal. Ikaruga= Awesome, but is available on Game Cube and XBLA. I don't like Psyvariar, but it's available on PS2 if you do like it. So, that leaves you with Psikyo fare such as Zero Gunner 2 and Gunbird. I don't see the big deal with those games. The only real thing I can see it being recommended for other than those is GRev's output, which I like ok, but I don't think it's that big of a deal.

The Saturn is known as a shmup system, and for good reason. The PS1 isn't really known for it, but there are more good/great shmups on it than on the Dreamcast, in my opinion.

And the PS2 has a lot of Cave games and Gradius V, and others.

I'm not saying that the Dreamcast sucks or whatever, I just don't see why it's always mentioned when someone asks about shmups. It's like "you need a Dreamcast". If I got a Dreamcast for shmups, i'd be pretty dissapointed.

I feel that you would need a modded Saturn and a modded PS2. That would give you a ton of phenomenal shooters right there. I don't think the Dreamcast is in the same territory. Unless you don't have any other options to play the wonderful Ikaruga.

Like I said, just my opinion. Don't shoot me!

s/m

[jpj]

[...]Psikyo fare such as Zero Gunner 2 and Gunbird. I don't see the big deal with those games.

i like your style

well, with some of the games you mentioned, it's partly because the dreamcast is near-identical to a naomi arcade machine, so those versions are much closer (or faithful) to the original arcade game than say a ps2 or gc version.

but it's not like it's something mutually exclusive. if someone says to you 'the DC is awesome for shmups' doesn't mean that saturn or ps2 isn't, etc.

if you like shmups, there are some systems that have either got a lot of good games, or a lot exclusive games, so are probably worth picking up. so to be fair, i don't think buying any one system would sate all your shmup desires.

the DC is a good machine for shmups. as opposed to say, recommending someone an n64 if ya catch mah drift

[evil_ash_xero]

Man, the N64 has...uh...hmm...

Well, yes, I get what you're saying.

I just see it mentioned a lot, and it got me thinking about it and what the big deal was. Of course, if you love Psikyo and GRev and whatnot, then it's a good machine for you.

I don't think we'll see as many cool shmups on one system again as we did during the 32 bit days. Sad.


s/m

[chempop]

BANG! BANG! hahaha, really though its all preference. For me its all about Gunbird 2(probably the best Psikyo game not including Dragon Blaze) , Gigawing 1+2, and MarsMatrix (i have Ikaruga on Cube). Others seem to love Zero Gunner 2 and Border Down, both which are pretty meh for me.

i guess its partially because many of the DC shmups have nice graphics and for newcomers who might be scared off by 2d, it'll ease the pain. personally I love sprites, wouldn't hesitate to take a bullet for one...

[Dave_K.]

Best Naomi ports and native VGA output FTW.

[chempop]

omg, how did under defeat slip my mind, <sticks head in hole>

[evil_ash_xero]

Oh yeah, I totally forgot about Mars Matrix and Giga Wing.

Now that's a decent number of shmups. Most of which I don't really like that much. But I can see some people really digging them.

s/m

[jpj]

plus the machine keeps on being written off, and out of nowhere will come a new console shmup (because of the naomi issue). the DC just kept on givin'

[Rob]

This thread is all like

[JJG]

Ikaruga, Giga Wing, Border Down, and Shiki 2 are enough to make it a good shmup console to me.

[professor ganson]

There's just so much to love about the DC as a shmup machine that it's hard to take the question seriously. We have to remember, though, that the greatness of the DC will not be obvious to newbies and it's worthwhile to take the opportunity to explain the issue. When I came here 3 years ago, I had no idea that the DC was so great.

I'm pressed for time atm, but one thing to keep in mind is that having a nice DC setup is like having an arcade machine in your home. The DC ports of Naomi shmups are, practically speaking, arcade perfect. For fans of arcade games, the DC is pretty hard to beat as far as consoles go.

[JJG]

The point is yeah many of the shmups on DC have been ported to other consoles as well but most are not as arcade perfect as they are on DC. I owned the GC and DC Ikaruga and compared them, the sound is much better on the DC port.

[MX7]

I'm so glad someone else has bought this up. I agree with you absolutely. Aside from Ikaruga and Mars Matrix, there's really nothing too special about the DC. I dislike Border Down greatly. I find the game horribly simplistic, both in terms of gameplay and stylistic qualities. Under Defeat is pretty cool in my opinion, but is nothing to get excited about. I tend to view the Giga Wing games as proto Mars Matrixes, for better or worse, though I'm guessing this is an extremely contentious issue. Etc.

Of course, it's just that these aren't my kind of STG's. I'm a dirty Cave fan boy at heart. As much as the Dreamcast apeals to me in a zomg xhardcorex kind of fashion, I've never been into methodical shooters, except for Truxton on the Mega Drive when I was a youngster. In fact, I've only really used it for Ikaruga, Mars Matrix, Shenmue and House of the Dead 2.

But in spite of my evasiveness I'm also pretty drunk and therefore provocative. So I'll type this now and attempt to defend myself tomorrow. Fight, internets, fight.

[Rob]

Aside from Ikaruga and Mars Matrix, there's really nothing too special about the DC.

Something like this can be said for every system.

[JJG]

I dislike Border Down greatly. I find the game horribly simplistic, both in terms of gameplay and stylistic qualities.

This really doesn't make any sense...

[Rob]

I'm also pretty drunk

[Ganelon]

Yeah, I've brought this subject up years ago. It's almost certainly because I don't like the specific games on the system, but I don't appreciate the system whatsoever (even though based on specs, it's an amazing system). One thing that kills it is a significant lack of older-style shooters outside of G.rev. The DC has great arcade ports, but the library is much too limited for my tastes.

[Hentai]

DC is a great console. I just don't understand why they made the controller so crappy.

[Necronom]

It's not necessarily the number of shmups that makes the DC a very good console for such games, it really is the quality of these ports.
Ikaruga and G-Rev's stuff are pretty much arcade perfect which I think is not really the case with the Cave ports on PS2.
Also don't forget Mars Matrix, Zero Gunner 2 and both Giga Wing games. If you're interested in some of those titles, especially G-Rev's, a DC is the best choice here. Plus it's cheap and doesn't need a boot disc or modchip if you use isos for playing (I bought Ika, but I'm using selfbooting iso for playing).
DC + VGA box + CRT monitor + Under Defeat = Quality shmupping

[CMoon]

I'm sure as soon as Radiant Silvergun gets emulated we'll see a thread just like this regarding the Saturn.

[ROBOTRON]

I like DC as a shmup console. It also has a great fighter library which is a plus. They still were releasing shmups exclusively to DC as recent as 2007.

Last Hope
Border Down
Under Defeat
Trizeal
Chaos Field
Mars Matrix
Karous
Ikaruga

to name a few

Fighters almost arcade perfect:

MVC2
CVS2
SF3 1, DI and 3rd Strike
Guilty Gear X
etc.

Controllers?

There are many 3rd party sticks and pads still obtainable on ebay and other sources.

[moozooh]

as soon as Radiant Silvergun gets emulated

Excuse me? It's been emulated for quite some time, both arcade and Saturn versions.

[D]

It's not necessarily the number of shmups that makes the DC a very good console for such games, it really is the quality of these ports.
Ikaruga and G-Rev's stuff are pretty much arcade perfect which I think is not really the case with the Cave ports on PS2.
Also don't forget Mars Matrix, Zero Gunner 2 and both Giga Wing games. If you're interested in some of those titles, especially G-Rev's, a DC is the best choice here. Plus it's cheap and doesn't need a boot disc or modchip if you use isos for playing (I bought Ika, but I'm using selfbooting iso for playing).
DC + VGA box + CRT monitor + Under Defeat = Quality shmupping

+1
wonderful resply.

[FIL]

Even with a bootdisc its really no hassle to get imported games working, unless those extra 30 seconds are really that important to you.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Stop copying my threads.

and wrong forum section.

[Ghegs]

My DC exists only because of Zero Gunner 2 which I think is made of awesome and win. All the other shmups for the system I either have no interest in or have on other consoles. I'm not that big on having the absolutely accurate arcade experience, as long as it's close enough I choose convenience.

(Also, thread moved.)

[DEL]

MX7 wrote (whilst drunk or not);

I dislike Border Down greatly. I find the game horribly simplistic, both in terms of gameplay and stylistic qualities.

I see we're gonna be arguing this one a little more .
Its the opposite of simplistic. If it were simplistic more people would populate the Hi-Sc thread. Its deeper than a Blue Lagoon.

[ROBOTRON]

I dislike Border Down greatly. I find the game horribly simplistic, both in terms of gameplay and stylistic qualities.

- wha....whaaarrrrrt?????

[MX7]

Yeah, BD has quite a complicated scoring system, and I freely admit I've never really explored it. It doesn't really seem to work in my head though. I detest restart points in STG's, even though BD does try to spruce them up with this multiple border thing. The graphics, while crisp are pretty bland. And the music is obscenely horrible.

But this is just an opinion from someone who doesn't like these kind of shooters! And I can honestly say that if this is the kind of shooter you're into, then the DC is the console for you. The only thing that really annoys me is that the internet and the U.K games press keeps on advocating the Dreamcast as "the console for shooters, lol", when this really doesn't take into account the huge multiplicity of sub-genres that exist in the STG genre. By perpetuating this discourse, everyone seems to think that the DC is the be all and end all of the scene, which of course leads to the stagnation of our favourite genre.

I have nothing against the DC (or even Border Down really, it's a decent game, just not my thing), but it is just one piece of a pretty large pie.

[kitkit.com]

It's all about personal taste. I love the DC & its shmups"

Zero Gunners 2
Giga Wing 1 & 2
Under Defeat
Cannon Spike

Zero Gunners 2 alone is worth the purchase for me.