Seriously, who is going to beat CAVE?

[moozooh]

That maybe true, but there are other areas where you can make the games interesting. Ikaruga's style (I don't consider Ikaruga to be manic, although it is quite difficult :x), 'bullet grazing' style games, and other scoring techniques.

Both Ikaruga and grazing-oriented games have tons of bullets, though, essentially making them bullet hell (even if you don't actually dodge bullets in Ikaruga, there's still a whole lot of them). Perhaps the only grazing game with less-than-average-danmaku bullet count I know is Radiant Silvergun, where even perfect grazing gives you like 1/10 (maybe even less) of the score you get by decent chaining or 100% boss destruction rate or stuff like that. And it's as lousy as that exactly because RSG doesn't have a lot of bullets most of the time, compensating it with other kinds of puzzles.

[Rob]

I believe one of the big reasons the shmup development is going the "bullet way" is due to the fact that there were hundreds (literally) of classic type shmups during 80s-90s, which is considerably enough to milk nearly every possible variation from it. There's only so much you can do with sparse and/or aimed shots.

Going? More like gone. What more can be done with it? It seems like they've hit a dead end and I really do hope they attempt to make it fresh again.

There is a lot of inspiration that can be drawn from classic shooters while they are completely ignored. I can understand that Cave has backed themselves into a corner with a specific style that people expect, but their sequels are a predictable increase in bullet density without any real advancement made in interesting features or scoring ideas.

It doesn't have to be either an old-school game or a Cave game. Gradius V had a much greater variety of obstacles than a series of walls or bullet mazes. I think Cave perfected their own formula around DOJ, anyways (and/or Ketsui judging by the videos). It has been done enough to where it is not any more interesting than games with static/wall obstacles.

[moozooh]

Going? More like gone. What more can be done with it? It seems like they've hit a dead end and I really do hope they attempt to make it fresh again.

Well, let's put it like this: there's still more to experiment with in the genre. Let's take Treasure's Three Iconic Shmups™ as an example: RSG was a mix of interesting gameplay mechanics and design elements without artificially bloating the bullet volume, Ikaruga had lots of bullets but was nowhere near any average bullet hell gameplay-wise due to the polarity system (and it didn't make it sufficiently easier, either) and extensive emphasis on chaining, Gradius V was an attempt (successful, imo) at applying certain bullet hell mechanics to a classic setting, making it more forgiving and more challenging at the same time. All the three games can be attributed to the new breed of shmups, yet all three play completely different from each other and, say, Cave games.

There is a lot of inspiration that can be drawn from classic shooters while they are completely ignored.

Is there any good classic shmup that hasn't donated its ideas to a newer one? I mean seriously. Haven't all the good old ideas been recycled at least once already?

I can understand that Cave has backed themselves into a corner with a specific style that people expect, but their sequels are a predictable increase in bullet density without any real advancement made in interesting features or scoring ideas.

That I definitely agree with. Most sequels they're doing are quantitive improvements: same ideas refined + more stuff (not unlike Touhou, considering pretty much all of it is sequels). Then again, there are Yagawa games that still have notably different scoring mechanics, even if they aren't fully "cave".

It doesn't have to be either an old-school game or a Cave game. Gradius V had a much greater variety of obstacles than a series of walls or bullet mazes. I think Cave perfected their own formula around DOJ, anyways (and/or Ketsui judging by the videos). It has been done enough to where it is not any more interesting than games with static/wall obstacles.

Agreeable, except what I still like in Cave games more than in static obstacle-oriented ones is the feeling of accomplishment that is based on the considerably well-balanced level of control over the stuff happening on the screen, and not memorizing level layouts, excercising in reaction speed or overcoming cheap stuff coming at you without giving you a chance to react without knowing about it beforehand. I sure like figuring the way through more than knowing and seeing it clearly yet being unable to take it because I didn't press the button five frames earlier, didn't memorize a lightning fast attack coming from this angle, and so on.

[MathU]

Is there any good classic shmup that hasn't donated its ideas to a newer one? I mean seriously. Haven't all the good old ideas been recycled at least once already?

I've never played another game like Gallop - Armed Police Unit. In fact, most of Irem's ideas haven't been reused.

[Arvandor]

Well, and what about the classic games with good concept hidden behind a sub-par game? Couldn't some of those old classics be re-invented and redone a lot better?

[spadgy]

I believe one of the big reasons the shmup development is going the "bullet way" is due to the fact that there were hundreds (literally) of classic type shmups during 80s-90s, which is considerably enough to milk nearly every possible variation from it. There's only so much you can do with sparse and/or aimed shots.

While I think you're largely right, I think if game designers are using 'everything has been done already' as an excuse, that's lame. Not sure that they are, but if they are they need their wrists slapped.

I think bullet curtain has become so dominant because it makes for some really attention grabbing screen shots and vids, which ultimately sell games and make bucks, and also because, as we've all said, it's Cave's speciality and they have an near absolute monopoly on arcade and retail shmup releases now

[Fighter17]

While I think you're largely right, I think if game designers are using 'everything has been done already' as an excuse, that's lame. Not sure that they are, but if they are they need their wrists slapped.

I think bullet curtain has become so dominant because it makes for some really attention grabbing screen shots and vids, which ultimately sell games and make bucks, and also because, as we've all said, it's Cave's speciality and they have an near absolute monopoly on arcade and retail shmup releases now

Well Under Defeat did pretty good in the arcades and that wasn't a bullet hell shmup.

[spadgy]

Quite right sir! And only 3 years ago, which in arcade shmup terms is sadly not long, but UD is closer to being an exception to the norm than the norm...