Seriously, who is going to beat CAVE?

ill6 · Post by **ill6** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:08 pm

I think people talk about Cave a lot because Cave release a lot more games than anyone else.

Given that there are probably less than 6 shooters a year - say one every 2 months unless we talk about Cave there is not a lot going on.

evil_ash_xero · Post by **evil_ash_xero** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:00 pm

shoe-sama wrote:psyvariar 2 reminds me of those broken doujins i play all the time

You just take one mechanic and abuse the crap outta it.

You know, I had Psyvariar Ultimate or somesuchthing for the PS2 for a while. I don't mean to sound like a graphics whore or whatever, but what was up with the graphics? I know it was for Dreamcast, but so was Ikaruga and Under Defeat. I mean, they looked cheap as hell. If they didn't have a better understanding of how to do polygons, they shoulda gone with sprites.

s/m

MX7 · Post by **MX7** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:40 pm

Psyvariar looks like a plate of sick.

Post by **spadgy** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:45 pm

DJ Rectal Prolapse wrote:Psyvariar looks like a plate of sick.

Quite agree. While I'm a fan of the series, and adore the look of the DC Psy-2, the first one is a blurry mess of a rainbow coloured drinker's omelette on the PS2. Maybe it's better in the arcade?

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:43 pm

lol what's with people liking shiki

All you do is choose Kuga and hold down B

Harlequin · Post by **Harlequin** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:18 am

unsane wrote:
BulletMagnet wrote:Isn't Shiki 2 on the forum's Top 25 list? If not, it was, very recently

Indeed, it's ranked #9 all time.

powerfuran wrote:If we talk about mechanics as a big part of the modern shmup as a genre, I just can't understand (for instance) why Mushihimesama Futari is in some way superior to Shikigami no Shiro 2.

The only Cave games that ranked higher than shiki2 were Dodonpachi (#1) and ESPGaluda (#8 ) heh.

BAH! That Top 25 list is flawed. The reason i bever vote in it.

1. Battle Garrega
2. Ibara

Thats all the list you need right there

Harlequin

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:43 am

The only Cave games that ranked higher than shiki2 were Dodonpachi (#1) and ESPGaluda (#8 ) heh.

o_O I hadn't noticed this, what the hell is wrong with people? I mean, even if you don't like Cave, there's still no justification in ranking shiki 2 over a Cave game, except maybe Donpachi =P

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:44 am

they like easy games

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:46 am

Touche (how do you get the accent mark? alt ###?)

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:48 am

who cares just copy and paste

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:14 am

Harlequin wrote: That Top 25 list is flawed. The reason i bever vote in it.

The fewer people that vote the better the next list will be.

Skyline · Post by **Skyline** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:25 am

spadgy wrote:Quite agree. While I'm a fan of the series, and adore the look of the DC Psy-2, the first one is a blurry mess of a rainbow coloured drinker's omelette on the PS2. Maybe it's better in the arcade?

Not really a fair comparison. Psyvariar 2 on Dreamcast hardware (NAOMI) vs. Medium Unit/Revision on souped-up PS1 hardware (Taito G-NET)

Same goes for Shikigami No Shiro, the first one looks really bland compared to II.

Post by **Ghegs** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:51 am

Arvandor wrote:I mean, even if you don't like Cave, there's still no justification in ranking shiki 2 over a Cave game, except maybe Donpachi =P

Statements like this boggle my mind.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:54 am

Ghegs wrote:
Arvandor wrote:I mean, even if you don't like Cave, there's still no justification in ranking shiki 2 over a Cave game, except maybe Donpachi =P
Statements like this boggle my mind.

yeah wtf donpachi is frickin awesome

Post by **spadgy** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:58 am

Skyline wrote:
spadgy wrote:Quite agree. While I'm a fan of the series, and adore the look of the DC Psy-2, the first one is a blurry mess of a rainbow coloured drinker's omelette on the PS2. Maybe it's better in the arcade?
Not really a fair comparison. Psyvariar 2 on Dreamcast hardware (NAOMI) vs. Medium Unit/Revision on souped-up PS1 hardware (Taito G-NET)

Same goes for Shikigami No Shiro, the first one looks really bland compared to II.

You're right, but I wasn't trying to compare the two on technological grounds. I was talking more about style/aesthetics. I've seen nicer looking games that Psyvariar Medium Unit/Revision on a SNES (and I still love Psyvariar Medium Unit/Revision)

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:10 am

Arvandor wrote:
The only Cave games that ranked higher than shiki2 were Dodonpachi (#1) and ESPGaluda (#8 ) heh.
o_O I hadn't noticed this, what the hell is wrong with people? I mean, even if you don't like Cave, there's still no justification in ranking shiki 2 over a Cave game, except maybe Donpachi =P

Shikigami II has a more interesting scoring system than most Cave games. Which says a lot since all you do is scrape bullets. A different strategy for each character is also more of a move forward than being locked into one route with minor variations.

If you were serious.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:14 am

what

all you do is spam shiki with kuga lol

and maybe learn where to pause to let some enemies shoot more bullets

Post by **spadgy** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:19 am

shoe-sama wrote:
Ghegs wrote:
Arvandor wrote:I mean, even if you don't like Cave, there's still no justification in ranking shiki 2 over a Cave game, except maybe Donpachi =P
Statements like this boggle my mind.
yeah wtf donpachi is frickin awesome

Yeah - surely if you don't like Cave (and I do) and you do like Shiki 2, surely you'd be allowed to prefer the one you...well... prefer?

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:21 am

shiki can be played without hands

powerfuran · Post by **powerfuran** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:47 am

shoe-sama wrote:what

all you do is spam shiki with kuga lol

and maybe learn where to pause to let some enemies shoot more bullets

Come on.

Goshi · Post by **Goshi** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:46 am

shoe-sama wrote:lol what's with people liking shiki

All you do is choose Kuga and hold down B

Hi I'm Yukari, I like to copy the evil one.

MX7 · Post by **MX7** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:08 am

Has anyone else noticed that the theme to level 1-1 of Shiki II sounds just like the theme to Men Behaving Badly? Yeah?

Post by **spadgy** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:12 pm

MX7 wrote:Has anyone else noticed that the theme to level 1-1 of Shiki II sounds just like the theme to Men Behaving Badly? Yeah?

That's hilarious! And you're right!

Somewhere else on this thread DEL was saying Brittany Speares samples a shmup in her latest single. Salamander maybe.

DEL · Post by **DEL** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:40 pm

spadgy wrote;

Somewhere else on this thread DEL was saying Brittany Speares samples a shmup in her latest single. Salamander maybe.

For the people here who have actually played the original Salamander (Mame or PCB) to the end of a loop, yes the DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER from Britney's Gimme More track is the exact same as the Salamander Last Boss warning, just sped up a bit.
Random trivia I know

More trivia:- Twice I've been behind a crappy silver car with the number plate R.TY5E. It can't be a personalised plate because its on a cheap car. Strange coincidence

Back on Topic, ill6 is right in saying that if you're not talking about a Cave release then basically you'll have very little to talk about in today's shoot'em up world. Almost a monopoly.

Kaede · Post by **Kaede** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:42 pm

Linkin Park also used the R-Type charge effect in of their songs.

cool.sammy · Post by **cool.sammy** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:10 pm

Honestly, the bullet hell thing is getting pretty rediculous. I used to be able to 1CC dodonpachi on saturn. That was pretty fun. But DOJ and Ibara kick my ass. I would like to see some games more reminiscent of the mid 90s games, like Strikers 1945 I, the 90s Raiden games. Also I do think that the earlier 8ing/Raizing shooters probably had them beat as well. Batrider especially, and the mahou daisakusen games (although I suck at them terribly), had a lot of character and interesting gameplay mechanics. And of course it's hard to throw away the Batsugun Special, which is a lot of fun and had great music.

Yes newer Cave games are very PRETTY, but I think gameplay-wise they lose out to the slightly older generation of arcade shooters. That's just my opinion though (But please, don't stop making oldschool style games for those of us that are a little slower

)

drboom · Post by **drboom** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:40 pm

You should definately check out Mushihimesama - Original isn't too hard and the bullet speed is a bit faster and the bullets a bit sparser.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:17 pm

I believe one of the big reasons the shmup development is going the "bullet way" is due to the fact that there were hundreds (literally) of classic type shmups during 80s-90s, which is considerably enough to milk nearly every possible variation from it. There's only so much you can do with sparse and/or aimed shots.

Designing patterns, on the other hand, is like designing levels in wall-dodging games, except the "walls" shift shape and morph according to artist's intent and player's actions, giving the artists more freedom and the players more control and a more interesting challenge (dodging through a maze, instead of just jerking away from a sniper bullet's trajectory). I'm pretty sure there's still a lot of classic type shmups you haven't played yet, little reason to wait for new ones. And I'm pretty sure we'll see more bullet hell games with original gameplay in the near future.

cool.sammy · Post by **cool.sammy** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:24 pm

That maybe true, but there are other areas where you can make the games interesting. Ikaruga's style (I don't consider Ikaruga to be manic, although it is quite difficult

), 'bullet grazing' style games, and other scoring techniques.

I actually was thinking about writing a music simulation / shmup hybrid, although I've been distracted by writing physics simulations which has become very interesting to me. But one day I'd like to get back to the music sim shooter idea.

Graphics and sound are always improving, new gameplay ideas come about now and then, but mostly i'm content with bursts of 'more of the same' kind of stuff. I can only speak for myself.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:35 pm

moozooh wrote:I believe one of the big reasons the shmup development is going the "bullet way" is due to the fact that there were hundreds (literally) of classic type shmups during 80s-90s, which is considerably enough to milk nearly every possible variation from it. There's only so much you can do with sparse and/or aimed shots.

Designing patterns, on the other hand, is like designing levels in wall-dodging games, except the "walls" shift shape and morph according to artist's intent and player's actions, giving the artists more freedom and the players more control and a more interesting challenge (dodging through a maze, instead of just jerking away from a sniper bullet's trajectory). I'm pretty sure there's still a lot of classic type shmups you haven't played yet, little reason to wait for new ones. And I'm pretty sure we'll see more bullet hell games with original gameplay in the near future.

The prime casualty in this sort of design is fast patterns and boss fights that don't take forever to finish.