So, say Ketsui got mamed tomorrow...

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:53 pm

If the game is perfectly emulated there is no reason to keep your PCB at all, unless you find it too bothersome to set up something you consider comfortable to play on MAME with, or you feel it is really important for you collect PCBs and maintain your collection. The authenticity or better quality of PCBs is bullshit in many cases imo.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:34 pm

PROMETHEUS wrote:The authenticity or better quality of PCBs is bullshit in many cases imo.

I can't think of any Cave PCB that has the exact same quality in MAME. None of them have the exact same game speed or slowdown emulated perfectly in MAME.

Dandy J · Post by **Dandy J** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:14 pm

Not to mention that all new MAME versions are dog shit and have like 4 frames of input lag on a lot of games. I'd look to Nebula or something that doesn't have input lag.

I actually posted on MAMEWorld in a thread about it and no one replied to us.

ill6 · Post by **ill6** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:20 pm

sven666 wrote:i dont play MAME period so i couldnt really give a shit if its emulated or not.

im not planning to sell my collection anyways, neither high nor low, I dont know why people continuously seem to think collectors dont play their stuff??

Sven consistantly speaks the truth.

Last time I checked all the older cave games (not to mention CPS2, MVS, etc etc) are in MAME and people still buy those.

Price would go down though... That said there are a lot of cave games that are not emulated now so by the time it happens I don't think Ketsui will be that notable.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:23 pm

Dandy J wrote:Not to mention that all new MAME versions are dog shit and have like 4 frames of input lag on a lot of games. I'd look to Nebula or something that doesn't have input lag.

I actually posted on MAMEWorld in a thread about it and no one replied to us.

lol on my computer even dos games liek cho ren sha has teh input lagz =X

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:29 pm

Might have something to do with keyboard settings (i.e., repeat rate and stuff).

Necronom · Post by **Necronom** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:39 pm

EOJ wrote:
PROMETHEUS wrote:The authenticity or better quality of PCBs is bullshit in many cases imo.
I can't think of any Cave PCB that has the exact same quality in MAME. None of them have the exact same game speed or slowdown emulated perfectly in MAME.

Hehe, yeah right

Now I know what elvis meant when he posted this in another thread:

"Dave_K. wrote:
But I have never seen Mame emulate any of my PCBs exactly. Never. There are always slight differences in refresh rates and control response, enough to be noticeable to me.

Elvis replied:
This style of post comes around on these boards every few months, and every few months I give the same response:

If you are playing MAME on a high res PC monitor, scaled up with a different refresh and buffering delay to the original hardware, it is not MAME that's at fault. It is your setup that's wrong.

Play MAME instead through the correct type of monitor, through a MAME build that is designed for writing directly to video card frame buffers (ie: AdvanceMAME via SVGALib - NOT through Windows or Linux/XWindows), and use lag-free, kernel-driven serial inputs (ie: USB on Linux), then you will not see any difference between MAME and the original arcade hardware (assuming the driver is correct - many of which are).

For hardware like CPS1/CPS2 and many of the older M68K/Z80 based MAME games, I can set these in such a way that even the most vocal of emulator skeptics cannot tell the difference between it and the original hardware. I've challenged some pretty huge skeptics in my home town, and they've gone home with a different opinion on what emulation can achieve given the right hardware.

If you're going to play MAME on your PC or Mac through a bloated operating system with a dozen layers of abstraction between your software and hardware, then of course you're going to see a difference. But again, that's not the fault of the emulator. It's the fault of the layers between it and the hardware.

And before anyone has a cry, I'm not anti PCB. I love the original arcade hardware, and collect where I can for my own personal nerdy reasons. But I also play and thoroughly enjoy emulation, and unlike most PCB collectors don't consider it the "poor cousin" of PCB collecting."

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... highlight=

budloc · Post by **budloc** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:43 pm

i don't own Ketsui, i plan to buy it during this year, but i own some emulated Cave game, so i wouldn't sell the emulated PCB i own,
nothing can beat the feeling I have playing the real thing in a Cab'.

I'm not listed on many HS rankings here but i play the games i have, actually i guess that Cave is the only company which can make me spend more than $300 to play a game.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:14 pm

Necronom wrote:
Hehe, yeah right

It is right. The slowdown is never perfectly emulated no matter what you do. It has nothing to do with refresh rates, etc.

320x240 · Post by **320x240** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:19 pm

Isn't this much the same as the situation that is going on right now with the download services? Many people prefer a hard copy over a software download.

MX7 · Post by **MX7** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:29 pm

320x240 wrote:Isn't this much the same as the situation that is going on right now with the download services? Many people prefer a hard copy over a software download.

It's also the reason why CD shops are still going, rather than everyone pirating MP3's instead. People are always gping to want physical copies.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:40 pm

EOJ wrote: I can't think of any Cave PCB that has the exact same quality in MAME. None of them have the exact same game speed or slowdown emulated perfectly in MAME.

Progear.

But I have never seen Mame emulate any of my PCBs exactly. Never. There are always slight differences in refresh rates and control response, enough to be noticeable to me.

Dave_K no doubt knows what he's talking about. Probably just as much as Elvis, whom are both quite knowledgeable. Dave's talking about emulation deficiencies... not hardware/OS. They will be present in all versions of MAME.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:04 pm

EOJ wrote:I can't think of any Cave PCB that has the exact same quality in MAME. None of them have the exact same game speed or slowdown emulated perfectly in MAME.

I saw absolutely no difference in slowdown in DDP between MAME and the arcade version, I can pretty much guarantee there is 0 input lag on it's mame version, and the same goes for every game I play on MAME. I have quite no clue why there'd necessarily have to be input lag when you're emulating a PCB through Windows kernel, and I'm sure I would notice if there was any because I'm really sensitive to that kind of stuff, being used to playing games like FPS or RTS competitively. How do you know there is input lag on DDP, Esprade, Guwange ? Do you "feel" it ? I highly doubt that.

And if the difference in slowdown you are talking about is real, then it is very small and probably doesn't change the game's difficulty much at all. Such a small difference doesn't justify buying a very expensive PCB that is nothing better : just slightly different. Why would you care SO MUCH about authenticity that you'd be willing to give up on all the MAME advantages and your money ? It just makes no sense to me.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:08 pm

Some people also buy cars considerably more expensive than what it takes to get a vehicle which would do its primary functions just as well. Just let them be.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:11 pm

I'm not saying they have no reason to buy them, they may just want to collect them or something, but what I'm saying is that quality over MAME versions is certainly not a reason for buying a PCB most of the time.

And I'm just curious, if someone can show me evidence or explain me why there is non negligible input lag or slowdown/gamespeed difference in MAME's Dodonpachi, I'm interested.

Dandy J · Post by **Dandy J** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:22 am

DoDonpachi doesn't have input lag, unless you're using a MAME version after the video update. I think Dangun, Progear, and some other Cave games do have it, though. Raizing games have a few frames of input lag (3 on old versions, 4 on new). All Psikyo SH2 games don't have any input lag. It's pretty much per-game.

KNTain · Post by **KNTain** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:32 am

DoDonpachi doesn't have input lag, unless you're using a MAME version after the video update. I think Dangun, Progear, and some other Cave games do have it, though. Raizing games have a few frames of input lag (3 on old versions, 4 on new). All Psikyo SH2 games don't have any input lag. It's pretty much per-game.

Do you have any more info on this? Namely, how did you come up with such specific numbers?

Dandy J · Post by **Dandy J** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:45 am

Just use frame-step. Pause the game, hold a direction. Then use the frame-step key (I think it's Ctrl+P in MAME?). If you move on the second step, there's no input lag (every game has 1 frame of 'input lag', MAME or not). Anything past that is additional, usually because of the game driver or w/e.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:14 am

but what I'm saying is that quality over MAME versions is certainly not a reason for buying a PCB most of the time.

It is if your MAME setup isn't as good of quality as your PCB setup. I'm one of the few that plays MAME on the same monitor & stick as his PCBs. Therefore I opt for MAME in many cases.

Perhaps someone that follows MAME closer than I can comment on how long it takes for a driver to get to some type of production level. The most recent arcade hardware that has any shooters I would want to play added to Mame is whatever Raiden Fighters Jet is on, and it plays quite poorly compared to the PCB.

General Martok · Post by **General Martok** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:52 am

Dandy J wrote:Just use frame-step. Pause the game, hold a direction. Then use the frame-step key (I think it's Ctrl+P in MAME?). If you move on the second step, there's no input lag (every game has 1 frame of 'input lag', MAME or not). Anything past that is additional, usually because of the game driver or w/e.

Interesting , I just tried this with mame 0,9 and several games.
the ship in ddp moves on the second step (second press of shift+p) like you described , however when I tried the same with donkey kong , mario moved on the first step . (both tested with vsync off).
With one of the newest mame builds , it added one frame of input lag.

Erinu · Post by **Erinu** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:00 am

It probably won't ever become available via MAME, hell, I don't even think there's been anything worthwhile on MAME for quite a few years now.

Chances are if you've bought it already, you won't be selling it.

Dandy J · Post by **Dandy J** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:41 am

General Martok wrote:
Dandy J wrote:Just use frame-step. Pause the game, hold a direction. Then use the frame-step key (I think it's Ctrl+P in MAME?). If you move on the second step, there's no input lag (every game has 1 frame of 'input lag', MAME or not). Anything past that is additional, usually because of the game driver or w/e.
Interesting , I just tried this with mame 0,9 and several games.
the ship in ddp moves on the second step (second press of shift+p) like you described , however when I tried the same with donkey kong , mario moved on the first step . (both tested with vsync off).
With one of the newest mame builds , it added one frame of input lag.

Really?! I've never seen a game that reacted on the first step. I do think that some games have 1 frame of input lag hard-coded into the game for different reasons. I guess we wouldn't know for sure unless someone tested it NKI style.

Post by **spadgy** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:54 am

While I'm the first to admit when it comes to console shmups on occasions I can't resist the odd eBay bargain that I then don't have time to play for ages (because I'm so into a shmup I'm already playing to death), in general I play every shmup I buy a great deal.

And when it comes to PCBs, of course I play every one thoroughly and completely, and would never sell them if they got emulated. Playing and collecting PCBs is of course about the game, but it's also about hunting them down, and rigging them up, and ironing out the problems (as I'm not a techy), and living the childhood dream of 'playing arcade games at home'. I have a few PCBs already emulated/ported when I bought the PCB, but I still just love playing them.

Of course, if I thought the game was crap and thought someone else might buy it, of course I'd sell it. Otherwise that would be just greedy.

You can't know how much you'll play a game until you get it, so inevitably you get the odd one you don't play to much.

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:48 am

SuperPang wrote:...how many of you would sell your PCBs?

I'm curious because this theory keeps cropping up that owners of undumped PCBs only own them because 1) they like to be leet and 2) they can't play them emulated, and I was under the impression that's BS created by envoius fools and we'd want the real thing anyway.

Even when it is MAME'ed it will not be perfect. But eventually as
the hardware is understood more and more emulation will be nearly
perfect. Look at all the work done on DKong in MAME the last revisions.

I believe that someday a Turing test done with a Ketsui PCB and MAME
running Ketsui will fail to identify the real PCB

Our PCB's are doomed to die but MAME is forever!

But to answer your question, no I will not sell my Ketsui even if it is
emulated.

rtw

Buttman · Post by **Buttman** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:09 am

PROMETHEUS wrote:
EOJ wrote:I can't think of any Cave PCB that has the exact same quality in MAME. None of them have the exact same game speed or slowdown emulated perfectly in MAME.
I saw absolutely no difference in slowdown in DDP between MAME and the arcade version, I can pretty much guarantee there is 0 input lag on it's mame version, and the same goes for every game I play on MAME. I have quite no clue why there'd necessarily have to be input lag when you're emulating a PCB through Windows kernel, and I'm sure I would notice if there was any because I'm really sensitive to that kind of stuff, being used to playing games like FPS or RTS competitively. How do you know there is input lag on DDP, Esprade, Guwange ? Do you "feel" it ? I highly doubt that.

And if the difference in slowdown you are talking about is real, then it is very small and probably doesn't change the game's difficulty much at all. Such a small difference doesn't justify buying a very expensive PCB that is nothing better : just slightly different. Why would you care SO MUCH about authenticity that you'd be willing to give up on all the MAME advantages and your money ? It just makes no sense to me.

IMHO this lag may depend on the computer you are using. I'm sure it has occured on mine, mainly on Mars Matrix (i don't play it anymore because of that) but also on Esprade (very annoying during last boss fight).

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:39 pm

Dandy J wrote:
General Martok wrote:
Dandy J wrote:Just use frame-step. Pause the game, hold a direction. Then use the frame-step key (I think it's Ctrl+P in MAME?). If you move on the second step, there's no input lag (every game has 1 frame of 'input lag', MAME or not). Anything past that is additional, usually because of the game driver or w/e.
Interesting , I just tried this with mame 0,9 and several games.
the ship in ddp moves on the second step (second press of shift+p) like you described , however when I tried the same with donkey kong , mario moved on the first step . (both tested with vsync off).
With one of the newest mame builds , it added one frame of input lag.
Really?! I've never seen a game that reacted on the first step. I do think that some games have 1 frame of input lag hard-coded into the game for different reasons. I guess we wouldn't know for sure unless someone tested it NKI style.

MAME .107 added TWO frames of input lag (total of 3 frames) for toaplan2 base games (just about every Raizing game until Dimahoo) which becomes intolerable

powerfuran · Post by **powerfuran** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:52 pm

Then stay on 0.99.

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:59 pm

How come it's only the PCB owners in this thread who are saying MAME is wank? Have any of you actually played any games on it with a decent spec PC? For all intents and purposes, the emulation quality on MAME and other such emalutors such as Final Burn Alpha, etc. is highly accurate. Sure, there are games where the emulation quality isn't perfect, but for the most part, most people would struggle to tell the difference if you had a decent joystick connected to your PC. Most PC graphics cards have S-Video outputs, so you can connect your PC to a CRT for that authentic soft analogue image. It makes me wonder if people just download MAME and don't bother tweaking the configuration.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:59 pm

.99 is when they boff up Cave games, which doesn't matter to me.

.103 it is!

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:25 pm

bcass wrote:How come it's only the PCB owners in this thread who are saying MAME is wank?

turn that round

bcass wrote:Most PC graphics cards have S-Video outputs

s-video...?

i 'rediscovered' mame a few weeks back, thinking it must be better than it was 10 years ago. downloaded 3 toaplan games thinking if i enjoy them, i can start looking at buying the pcb's. all three games had no sound. great

So, say Ketsui got mamed tomorrow...

Re: So, say Ketsui got mamed tomorrow...