first manic shooter

dial911 · Post by **dial911** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:15 pm

Batsugun Special Version

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:54 pm

freddiebamboo wrote:TLB Bee (campaign ver, but you get the idea)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqgYeQ60uw8

Try this version, proper filtering did some magic to it (i.e. making it watchable).

nimitz · Post by **nimitz** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:49 am

freddiebamboo wrote:Garegga is not very manic compared to DDP, despite cave taking influence from Garegga - they upped the bullet count dramatically from raizing's sparse but evil spreads to the masses of spam that populate the genre these days

Well, it is true that the bullet count in DDP is higher but what makes Garegga "manic" is the fact that you have lots of bullet (try counting the amount of bullets in the 2nd boss first attack in garegga with the rank up). And they are also very fast (especially compared to DDP).

Also comparing the final 2nd loop boss to the final boss of garegga with the rank controlled is kinda unfair, comparing Glow squid on a 1LC (or say something under 5LC) of garegga would be an whole other story..

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:25 am

wut rank control

high rank so that blackheart2 can actually be milked

otherwise it dies in like 2 bombs lol

nimitz · Post by **nimitz** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:45 am

While its true that he milks BH mk2, form what i see his score is a E at the beginning of the vid so that means he "suicided" 17 times before the vid starts...so yeah the rank could be much higher.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:27 am

what you don't get humongous rank from no missing

you get it from picking up items and using 3219423847834 Hz autofire and shit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-Z3vwBtOOw

ZOMGZ 10 SUICIDES TEH RANK COULD BE SO MUCH HIGHER WHAOZ

nimitz · Post by **nimitz** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:17 pm

pointless argument...

freddiebamboo · Post by **freddiebamboo** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:48 pm

nimitz wrote:pointless argument...

Despite shoesama's odd grasp of english he is right, this is a good replay played at a high rank for score, not a low rank 1CC as you said.

Post by **spadgy** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:24 pm

The thing with agreeing on the earliest manic here is we all seem to be discrediting one game as not manic because a later game is 'more manic'.

If DDP's 'manicness' is indeed more than BG's, it doesn't mean BG wasn't manic. Otherwise you could say DDP isn't manic as DDP-DOJ is more manic and so on.

The thing is, if I'm right, you could keep going back to earlier, slightly less manic titles saying they are the first, until you arrived at an utterly 'un-manic' early shmup, way before Recca.

My conclusion then, would be that there wasn't a first manic game, but you can plot the emergence of manic shmups over several titles, with Recca, DDP and BG being key points in the evolution of the sub-genre.

Or I could stop talking pompous shit and just play the fuckin' games...

FIL · Post by **FIL** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:40 pm

I just played Recca for the first time, i've not had my ass kicked so hard by a NES game for a long time.

ave · Post by **ave** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:20 pm

DonPachi for Saturn. And in b/w actually due to the lack of an adequate cable, so it was REALLY a feeling of "the first" XD

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:14 am

Manic is too subjective, and SHOULD apply to every game in the genre anyways; and when it doesn't, the game generally suffers because of it (Blast Wind, Under Defeat, and Touhou games just as a few examples are far too tame).

Manic isn't a proper sub-genre at all. Bullet-hell on the other hand, IS a proper sub-genre, and could actually BE defined, if it hasn't been already. Just require a certain number of bullets on screen at once, or per minute, or something like that.

Just look at STGT '07 final week. Giga Wing and Strikers 1945 ptII in the same category? You KNOW there's a problem with the term right there, as these games have nothing in common aside from being vertical shooters. Giga Wing is most certainly a bullet hell shooter. I don't know what to consider Strikers though... a twitch shooter?

Sonic R · Post by **Sonic R** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:19 am

FIL wrote:I just played Recca for the first time, i've not had my ass kicked so hard by a NES game for a long time.

I just played Recca for the millionth time, I enjoy to have my arse kick by that NES game

I love to play Recca -- I cannot stop.

doctorx0079 · Post by **doctorx0079** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:26 am

Sonic R wrote:
FIL wrote:I just played Recca for the first time, i've not had my ass kicked so hard by a NES game for a long time.
I just played Recca for the millionth time, I enjoy to have my arse kick by that NES game
I love to play Recca -- I cannot stop.

Seriously. He does.

shinsage · Post by **shinsage** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:38 am

[quote="Arvandor"]Giga Wing is most certainly a bullet hell shooter. I don't know what to consider Strikers though... a twitch shooter?[/quote]
but aren't all shooters 'twitch'?!!!

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:11 am

*shrugs* I dunno, that's why I phrased it as a question. Perhaps bullet-hell is the subgenre, and a game like Strikers has no subgenre, it's merely a shooter.

Edit:

but aren't all shooters 'twitch'?!!!

It occured to me, that no, they aren't. But, quantifying it would be fairly difficult, much like "manic." Another term that should just be thrown out.

Why do we feel the need to classify them in the first place though, now that I think about it. Do we even need strict definitions for bullet-hell and the rest, or can't we just be happy that they're all shooters? 2D platformers don't really have subgenres, after all, or not any that people argue about constantly. So what's our problem?

Edit2: After a little more thought, it occured to me that if I were to constantly browse a 2D platformer forum, I'd probably find all kinds of arguments about Sega vs Nintendo (Cave vs Psikyo), controller vs keyboard (stick vs pad), is Megaman a borderliner (is Bangai-O), etc etc, so on, and so fourth.

Yeah, it would be just like it is here =P I guess the devotists just have nothing better to do than argue the finest of arbitrary semantics about their hobby.

gameoverDude · Post by **gameoverDude** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:30 am

Arvandor wrote:Just look at STGT '07 final week. Giga Wing and Strikers 1945 ptII in the same category? You KNOW there's a problem with the term right there, as these games have nothing in common aside from being vertical shooters. Giga Wing is most certainly a bullet hell shooter. I don't know what to consider Strikers though... a twitch shooter?

Good question.

Even Sky Shark is manic (wait for the enemy's last stand after you take out the large boss plane and you'll see it especially there), so I doubt "manic" should be a valid subgenre. Thunder Force III's Mania setting isn't really that manic, while TF IV's Maniac setting is what the name says.

While Giga Wing can fill the screen with bullets easily, I'd consider the average Psikyo shmup to be more manic than GW due to the bullet speed.

FIL · Post by **FIL** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:17 am

I don't like the phrase 'bullet hell'. Sounds pejorative.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:39 am

Go for it's other term then: Curtain-fire

FIL · Post by **FIL** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:54 am

But I don't like one either! I'll have to invent a new word.

Nuke · Post by **Nuke** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:58 am

There's also the term bullet hell, which I like but that doesn't necessarily mean it's manic.
When I hear and use the term manic, it refers to a certain speedy twitch-based game aesthetic, not the number of bullets on screen.
Dangun Ferveron is clearly a manic, it almost goes at a light speed, and so are DoDonpachi and Battle Garegga, dodging being the key to survival.
Zun games and Mushihimesama are Bullet Curtain shooters, the main emphasis being to navigate trough the bullet swarms rather than avoiding them.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:41 pm

Have you played Dodonpachi stage 5 all the way through at max rank? Or just loop 2 stage 4-5? It's definitely a curtain fire game =P

FIL, you could go by the japanese term for the bullet hell genre: danmaku.

Nuke: That's the exact problem with the term manic. It's too subjective and nigh-impossible to quantify. No one will ever be able to agree on what constitutes a manic shooter.

Dangun Feveron is sick and twisted in the sense that it's a curtain-fire game with really REALLY REALLY fast as well as dense patterns. Very evil. It's like Cave and Psikyo had a child or something.

doctorx0079 · Post by **doctorx0079** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:14 pm

gameoverDude wrote:Even Sky Shark is manic (wait for the enemy's last stand after you take out the large boss plane and you'll see it especially there)

I call BS. Bullets in Sky Shark are SLOOOOWWW. Also I have never seen Sky Shark fill the screen with bullets the way Mushi or Ibara do.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:27 pm

Nuke wrote:Dangun Ferveron is clearly a manic, it almost goes at a light speed, and so are DoDonpachi and Battle Garegga, dodging being the key to survival.

I thought it held true for most shmups?.. Also, DDP is considerably slow, and it does require you to go through the streams a lot of times during the later stages (because survival strategies are rigid enough to consist predominantly of herding the aimed bullet streams and jerking to create openings in them, which you need to get through afterwards) and obviously in boss fights. Feveron bullet streams are much, much less dense, though, because they're designed for a high speed, in which precise positioning is near-impossible.

Nuke wrote:Zun games and Mushihimesama are Bullet Curtain shooters, the main emphasis being to navigate trough the bullet swarms rather than avoiding them.

What would you say about, for instance, Ketsui or ESPGaluda?