Getting used to an arcade stick?

koda · Post by **koda** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:49 pm

Sorry if this is the improper board-- I figured it'd either be here or Hardware, but since this is relating to playstyle rather than the sick itself I assumed that this would be the appropriate place for this thread.

I'm going to be receiving an arcade stick soon, and up until now I've done 99.9% of my SHMUP playing with a controller. I'm not any good to begin with but I once I receive my stick I do expect my scores to drop before they begin to ascend. I don't have a whole lot of arcade experience and I can't really afford to get into the cab/pcb scene right now.

I was just curious about the fastest/best way to acquaint myself with using an arcade stick. How do you guys generally place your hands? Do you keep your wrists straight with your fingers going over the top of the stick, resting the top of your palm on it? Or do you hold it with your fingers from the side? Do you generally use your fingers for movement or your wrist?

I have a feeling that it's going to be awkward at first. I just hope that it will help me improve.

grovsnus · Post by **grovsnus** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:08 pm

I'm pretty sure it will help you improve. You're using your hand, wrist and part of your arm to control a stick, as opposed to using only your left thumb to control a pad. Way easier to make precision movements. For me at least.

I grip the stick with thumb, index and middle finger from the side with my palm on the board. Whatever works best for you.

MX7 · Post by **MX7** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:14 pm

I tried for about 3 months to get comfortable with using a stick, but it never stuck. Now I just use my stick for Melty Blood and Gunbird 2.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:26 pm

If you're unlucky like I was you can get a weird stick that you will keep on playing like shit with. In any case, I don't think it will help improve so much.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:35 pm

i hate sticks

they push back against you

ITS WEIRD

I suppose you'd have to GET USED TO THAT

That and the small range of movement.

I really have no idea how to do effective tap dodging with sticks because it feels really weird to wait for the things to rebound back before making it go left/right again.

kengou · Post by **kengou** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:48 pm

I don't know if sticks are necessarily superior to a d-pad or analog stick. Most people who excel with sticks are those who spend a lot of time shmupping in arcades and are more used to it. I also play mostly on consoles or mame, with a d-pad, and the last time I tried an actual shmup in an arcade, I was sucking pretty hard at it. I feel like it's harder to make twitchy fast direction changes since you need to use your whole wrist and hand to move the stick.

I'd say if you're used to a controller, stick with it and just keep practicing specific games in order to improve.

RGB · Post by **RGB** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:28 pm

I started to use an arcade stick not so long ago too, before it was PS2 pad only. I believe you will not have big problems with acquainting with the arcade stick. Try to play different games using it, experiment yourself with various grips, after some time your hand will naturally grab it in the most comfortable position for it.

The real question is whether you'll be doing better or worse, and from my experience a stick you choose to play on has a vital role here. I will not go much into details which stick is the best etc. as people have their own opinions on that stuff, I'll just point out what's important.

I've tried many sticks so far, and can tell you that most of generic arcade sticks for consoles aren't the best, they often need to be modified with original arcade parts. My first stick was the official Dreamcast one, and it sucked a big one, I played like shit and wanted to stick with joypads for good, thinking I wouldn't go too far using the stick. But then a friend told me to try something different, and yes, it helped a lot ! I replaced the shity DC stick and buttons with the original parts, and my view changed completely, and so did my skill (well, I'm still lame seeing some scores on these boards...).
So, if it goes about the stick choice, you should go for a short throw, decent centering and short engage distance for shmups. Personally I don't like Sanwa sticks for shmups (JLW, JLF, they're slow), but Seimitsus are decent, their sticks are very dynamic (LS32 and especially LS40). Another option is an electronic stick like an U360, Suzo Inductive (its ugly, but imo one of the best), they are usually better than ordinary sticks although, often require modification as well, because of poor centering, too hard/loose spring etc.
Currently I use the U360 with a hard spring (had to got used to that :/ ) with most of the PC shmups, it is a very precise stick, and the "engage map" can be modified, making it universal for many game genres. For consoles on the other hand I use a LS32 DC modified stick, plays great.

cheers,
RGB

koda · Post by **koda** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:39 pm

Thanks guys. The stick I'm getting is a custom DC stick with a Seimitsu LS-32.

RGB · Post by **RGB** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:40 pm

Great choice, you'll do fine then

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:47 pm

The Hori Fighting SS sticks were pretty good.

Scarf · Post by **Scarf** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:56 pm

Is it easy to swap a seimitsu stick into a HRAP? Or into Virtua Stick High Grade?

Can't stand sanwa sticks for shmups.

RGB · Post by **RGB** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:02 pm

Both Virtua Stick High Grade and HRAP(every model) can be modified with the Seimitsu LS32, LS33, LS40, LS55, LS56 sticks with ease.

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:03 pm

grovsnus wrote:You're using your hand, wrist and part of your arm to control a stick, as opposed to using only your left thumb to control a pad. Way easier to make precision movements.

Not to be a dick or anything, but I still don´t get why this is supposed to make things easier. We had those discussion and I hope I am not turning this into another "pad vs stick" thread, but I simply just don´t get it.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:24 pm

I USE 3 FINGERS LOL

grovsnus · Post by **grovsnus** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:24 pm

FrederikJurk wrote:
grovsnus wrote:You're using your hand, wrist and part of your arm to control a stick, as opposed to using only your left thumb to control a pad. Way easier to make precision movements.
Not to be a dick or anything, but I still don´t get why this is supposed to make things easier. We had those discussion and I hope I am not turning this into another "pad vs stick" thread, but I simply just don´t get it.

That's not dicky of you. I'm talking strictly from personal experience here; I don't want to say that one is generally better than the other either. I only know that I can control a stick better than a pad, and I feel it's because I can smooth the movements better, and thus control them better, as there are more buffers involved, i.e muscles. I can push and pull at the same time, using different muscles and so arrive at the "perfect" manipulation of the stick.

In other words: I have no control over my left thumb.

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:26 pm

I have to use sticks or else my left thumb will be hurting like hell (and my left hand will be seriously cramped).

Using a stick puts less pressure on my left hand.

Plus the buttons are much more reachable on a stick (which is a big deal for fighting games).

Erinu · Post by **Erinu** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:54 am

I uh.

I don't know.

I use pads mostly, because I prefer holding something.

That's pretty much my entire reason behind using pads. Oh, and because I like them. That's also another reason. Sticks are fine too, but it's pretty much personal preference when it comes down to it.

If I was going to buy a stick, I'd probably buy a Hori Real Arcade, but they're out of stock, so whatever. Guess I won't be doing that. There's a PS3 HRAP, but considering it being for the PS3, well, guess I won't be doing that either. Oh well.

elfhentaifan · Post by **elfhentaifan** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:57 am

Erinu wrote: because I prefer holding something.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:08 am

Erinu wrote:Oh, and because I like them.

oooooooo

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:29 am

Not to be a dick or anything, but I still don´t get why this is supposed to make things easier.

I made my big transformation from pad to stick with ESPGaluda. I was using a PS2 pad. Scoring high in the game (and just about any Cave game) relies on you tapping one button (kakusei) immediately after another (shot/laser). Your thumb can't move fast enough for it to work as well as it can in most places. True, you can use three fingers w/ a pad, but the only decent pad with a button layout to accomodate this is the Saturn pad.

It took a while, but it eventually stuck.

Post by **spadgy** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:34 am

I found the move to stick from pad instantly and effortlessly improved my ability, across every format.

That said, for certain shmups I've read a return to pad is worthwhile. Mushihimesama apparently...

StoofooEsq · Post by **StoofooEsq** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:04 am

Even though I've owned an arcade stick for nearly a month now, I've never tried it with any Shmup. I suppose I'll give it a shot with a game like DoDonPachi sometime and see if I would prefer using that to a standard gamepad.

Erinu · Post by **Erinu** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:52 am

elfhentaifan wrote:
Erinu wrote: because I prefer holding something.

Oh god I made something on the internet which can be taken out of context and used in a perverted manner :gonk: thanks elfhentaifan

Also uh, going from a PS2 pad to an arcade stick is kinda lol because PS2 pads suck shit. Going from a Saturn pad to arcade stick is a little different, because they're pretty much (general consensus I'd say) the best pad for shmups. I've always wanted to learn sticks, but it's a bunch of effort just to get back to my own skill level. And I don't really see the point.

elfhentaifan · Post by **elfhentaifan** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:10 pm

Erinu wrote:
elfhentaifan wrote:
Erinu wrote: because I prefer holding something.

Oh god I made something on the internet which can be taken out of context and used in a perverted manner :gonk: thanks elfhentaifan

Also uh, going from a PS2 pad to an arcade stick is kinda lol because PS2 pads suck shit

I am having 2 versions of Ibara, the port and the pcb. I prefer playing the ps2 version because for me it is easier to handle the pad, mostly because of this point only.
At leasts its a manner oh habit, but i am one of a very few human beings which think, the ps2 pad is "VERY RECOMMENDABLE AND PERFECT FOR SHMUPS"

"Btw alcoholic liquids makes people saying rather unnesseccairy remarks, and i doubt that some people in here wont ever be able to take me serious again, so dont feel bad if you think the same way "

Gwyrgyn Blood · Post by **Gwyrgyn Blood** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:33 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:I made my big transformation from pad to stick with ESPGaluda. I was using a PS2 pad. Scoring high in the game (and just about any Cave game) relies on you tapping one button (kakusei) immediately after another (shot/laser). Your thumb can't move fast enough for it to work as well as it can in most places. True, you can use three fingers w/ a pad, but the only decent pad with a button layout to accomodate this is the Saturn pad.

I've never had much trouble using 3 fingers on a PS2 pad, maybe I've got skinny fingers or something. For Galuda anyway, I just laid out my pad as L1 = Kakusei, R1 = Rapid, [] = Bomb, X = Shot, which seemed to work fine. I definitely prefer to play on a Seimitsu whenever possible though.

drboom · Post by **drboom** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:34 pm

Stick. I hate pads.

I honed my technique from watching the superplay dvd's I own. Mushihimesama has a good shot of the grip in the extras section. I use to hold the stick with my thumb, index and middle finger with my palm resting on the panel, but my hand got really tired after a while.

grovsnus · Post by **grovsnus** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:00 pm

drboom wrote:Stick. I hate pads.
I honed my technique from watching the superplay dvd's I own. Mushihimesama has a good shot of the grip in the extras section. I use to hold the stick with my thumb, index and middle finger with my palm resting on the panel, but my hand got really tired after a while.

How are the players in the superplays holding the stick?

Post by **spadgy** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:31 pm

I just find jumping back and forth between stick and pad pretty easy. Strange how some people really have a strong allegiance to one or the other...

doctorx0079 · Post by **doctorx0079** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:42 pm

I want to mention again, in case anyone might be tempted by this thread to grab the low-end Pelican stick you see everywhere for $20 :

DONT.

I got one figuring, $20, what the hell? Well you would be better off buying pizza or something with that $20. After about two weeks of normal use the stick part broke off from the base. They use soft metal that screws in. It seems that I stripped the screw part in two @*#&$%^ weeks, with only gentle normal use.

Now I have a Sanwa stick on the way that I bought from another shmember. We'll see how that goes.

dmauro · Post by **dmauro** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:09 pm

Even disregarding the stick, I found my performance was increased when I switched because I like having my fingers hover over the buttons rather than having to move my thumb back and forth between buttons. I'm able to panic-bomb much quicker.

You'll almost certainly enjoy the Seimitsu over a dpad though. The trick is to find the right way to hold it (and I'm sure you can find several threads with plenty of suggestions on this forum).