What's a billion?

alpha5099 · Post by **alpha5099** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:00 am

I've just stumbled across the concept of long scale and short scale numbers, and I'm dumbfounded. I have a hard time believing that there isn't consensus on something as simple as numbers. Considering the large geographic distibution of the members around here, I just wanted to find out for myself if people are actually using long scale numbers.

magnum opus · Post by **magnum opus** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:02 am

well the entire scientific world calls 1,000,000,000 a billion so i'm going with that.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:05 am

I always knew that a billion was what you posted as a second option. Though I call the first one "1 billion", it has always been for me and everyone where metric is used, nothing more but a thousand millions.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:14 am

Every magazine in the US refers to a billion as the first option so that's what I'm familiar with. I didn't know they ever used long scale anywhere in the US...

uwfan · Post by **uwfan** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:46 am

a billion is a very large number :p

UnscathedFlyingObject · Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:47 am

ARRggghhh, numbers. I can't digest them properly. Once I was thinking how much was a million and decided to think how many PS2 cases would fit in my room to give me an idea. I'm still curious how many would fit. Maybe 10,000.

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:48 am

For the longest time, I thought that the next decimal exponent after thousand (in Chinese) was one million.
But then I found out it was only 10,000. Oh how my outlook of the world was changed....

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 6:16 am

And the one after that is 100,000,000. The significance of 10,000 is handy to know if you plan on playing Guwange and want to know what your score is.

Accutron · Post by **Accutron** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:20 pm

magnum opus wrote:well the entire scientific world calls 1,000,000,000 a billion so i'm going with that.

The scientific world uses scientific notation, for the exact reason being brought up in this thread. It's bad form to express something as 'billion' in a peer-reviewed paper.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:25 pm

I always found it amusing playing BBC documentaries (David Attenborough anyone?) and you'd really have to be careful in what they were saying since they are very strict about their billions and hundred millions...

Which begs the question:

Is the earth 4,500,000,000 years old (as I was always taught)

or

is it 4,500,000,000,000 years old?

Accutron · Post by **Accutron** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:31 pm

CMoon wrote:Is the earth 4,500,000,000 years old (as I was always taught)

or

is it 4,500,000,000,000 years old?

The first one

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:41 pm

Well strictly taken a billion is a million * million = 1,000,000,000,000

Just because some later scientist started using it for 1,000,000,000 doesn't take away the original meaning.
Maybe americans should get used to the term "milliard" as it seems they are one of the few NOT familiar with this less ambiguous term...

To quote Wikipedia:

"Milliard" is a French-derived word meaning the number 109. It is unused in American English and is rare in other forms of English, though occasionally encountered, after having been replaced widely by the short scale "billion" during the 20th century. The numeral "thousand million" is unambiguous. The word "milliard" is a common word to many other languages.

Zhon · Post by **Zhon** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:09 pm

Language is defined by how people use it - no matter what the dictionary, word history, etc. say. A huge amount of words don't mean the same thing they did before, but there's no going back.

In any case, in North America, billion is used as to mean 9 zeros, while in the UK, it has 12.

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:21 pm

Zhon wrote:Language is defined by how people use it - no matter what the dictionary, word history, etc. say. A huge amount of words don't mean the same thing they did before, but there's no going back.

In any case, in North America, billion is used as to mean 9 zeros, while in the UK, it has 12.

I agree, but since -as Alpha 5099 mentioned- this is an international forum with both UK and US (and lots of other countries) members it can potentially cause lot's of confusion. Should we be talking in scientific terms then?

But then again I never noticed any big confusion coming from different understandings of the word! If it is REALLY important I guess I'll just write it down in numbers anyway in the future...

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:27 pm

OK, so the earth is 4.5 millard years old???

My goodness, I hope no one is getting bent out of shape over this. We could after all be getting worked up about meters and yards...

Accutron · Post by **Accutron** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:44 pm

CMoon wrote:OK, so the earth is 4.5 millard years old???

No, the earth is 4.5x10^9 years old...well, actually, 4.55x10^9 years old

Long scale vs. short scale is not an American vs. British thing. It's actually a French vs. French thing, with almost all English-speaking countries, including Britain, now officially using short scale. The term 'milliard' is obsolete in British English. Most non-English speaking western countries using French numerics still use long scale. Long scale is kinda like PAL...Europe still uses it, but nobody knows why.

PsikyoPshumpPshooterP · Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:49 pm

alpha5099 wrote:I've just stumbled across the concept of long scale and short scale numbers, and I'm dumbfounded. I have a hard time believing that there isn't consensus on something as simple as numbers. Considering the large geographic distibution of the members around here, I just wanted to find out for myself if people are actually using long scale numbers.

you use big words but yet the sight of 1,000,000,000 dumbfounds you

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:49 pm

Accutron wrote:
CMoon wrote:... like PAL...Europe still uses it, but nobody knows why.

Erm, better picture quality!?

Accutron · Post by **Accutron** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:53 pm

Super Laydock wrote:Erm, better picture quality!?

I guess that depends on whether you place more weight on pixel count or refresh rate. They both affect picture quality. I was speaking more to the fact that both are arbitrary standards, one of which is far more prevalent worldwide.

judesalmon · Post by **judesalmon** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:02 pm

Americans came up with a billion being a thousand million, and the UK adopted it several years ago.

No-one in the UK sees a billion as a million million anymore.

Accutron · Post by **Accutron** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:11 pm

Repeating myself...

Nobody outside of FRANCE came up with either the long scale or short scale systems. They invented both systems.

judesalmon · Post by **judesalmon** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:35 pm

True, échelle longue and échelle courte are French numerical systems, what I meant was that America used short scale and therefore popularised it amongst english speaking countries.

A lot of non-English speaking countries still use long scale.

Hence, we no longer use long scale here in the UK.

Accutron · Post by **Accutron** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:36 pm

judesalmon wrote:True, échelle longue and échelle courte are French numerical systems, what I meant was that America used short scale and therefore popularised it.

Hence, we no longer use long scale here in the UK.

Absolutely true. The US is primarily responsible for the push towards short scale, including nagging Britain into switching over.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:12 pm

What's a billion?

The amount of points you acquire approximately every two seconds in any Takumi game.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon May 02, 2005 2:29 am

The reason the identity of the word has changed is in my opinion, because a billion in the old term would be considered too many to ever talk about.

How many times would you bring up a billion in conversation if it equated to 12 zero's?

MovingTarget · Post by **MovingTarget** » Mon May 02, 2005 3:17 am

This is the top score in the Gigawing G. high scores thread

1405,5264,8731,30537260 by Rob.

How the bloody hell do you pronunce/write that number?

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Mon May 02, 2005 3:34 am

^^^ A f***load of points?

Accutron · Post by **Accutron** » Mon May 02, 2005 3:39 am

MovingTarget wrote:This is the top score in the Gigawing G. high scores thread

1405,5264,8731,30537260 by Rob.

How the bloody hell do you pronunce/write that number?

14 quintillion and some change, in short scale.

Zach Keene · Post by **Zach Keene** » Mon May 02, 2005 3:44 am

MovingTarget wrote:This is the top score in the Gigawing G. high scores thread

1405,5264,8731,30537260 by Rob.

How the bloody hell do you pronunce/write that number?

1405 kei 5264 chou 8731 oku 3053 man 7260.

(fourteen quintillion fifty-five quadrillion two hundred sixty four trillion eight hundred seventy-three billion one hundred thirty million five hundred thirty-seven thousand two hundred and sixty.)

MovingTarget · Post by **MovingTarget** » Mon May 02, 2005 3:57 am

Zach Keene wrote: fourteen quintillion fifty-five quadrillion two hundred sixty four trillion eight hundred seventy-three billion one hundred thirty million five hundred thirty-seven thousand two hundred and sixty

Cheers!

shmups.system11.org

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