Seriously, who is going to beat CAVE?

Erinu · Post by **Erinu** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:41 am

shoe-sama wrote:Awesome, more material which is completely unrelated to the topic at hand, and isn't really worth reading at all. You're making quite a name for yourself here, Erinu, as being the local resident troll.

What? He asked for a source on where ZUN claimed he enjoyed his own games and made them because he wanted to play something that wasn't available.

Troll attempt = failed. Do your best and try again!

Oh, slight edit: IRONY.

zdk · Post by **zdk** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:44 am

bridget, your logic and reasonability seem to out of place in this thread.

I like touhou games. these were the first shmups I played, so I perhaps have a different view than some.
I've only so far tried dodonpachi from Cave ( I WILL 1cc this game one day)
from that, and what I've seen in vids of the other games and such, Cave games are fun too, a very different flavor of shmup.

some people like apples, some people like oranges,
some people like apples and oranges,
some people like apples and not oranges.
some people like oranges and not apples.
one's enjoyment of apples should not affect another's enjoyment of oranges.
only when the act of enjoying apples actively prevents others from enjoying oranges should there be any rational reason for voicing complaint with another persons preference.

incidentally, i am allergic to most fruit

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:48 am

Actually, not enjoying their apples or oranges is the sole problem of those who don't, not anyone else.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:57 am

Erinu wrote:
shoe-sama wrote:Awesome, more material which is completely unrelated to the topic at hand, and isn't really worth reading at all. You're making quite a name for yourself here, Erinu, as being the local resident troll.
What? He asked for a source on where ZUN claimed he enjoyed his own games and made them because he wanted to play something that wasn't available.

Troll attempt = failed. Do your best and try again!

Oh, slight edit: IRONY.

ok let's try something

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 576#315576
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 638#315638

You might or might not have been aware of the carbon copy stuff when you made this post
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 769#315769
But you've probably figured it out by now (most likely just a few minutes after making said post), but anyways here's my point.

chain of events

worstplayer
Exaggeration: Zun games are all the same
Unstated Obvious: Zun games have many differences in mechanics enemies ships etc
Implication: Well he already exxagerates Cave to be "somewhat original" in that post, so it's easy to see how he can say that Zun is pretty much the same everytime when comparing it relative to Cave.

Erinu
Exaggeration: worstplayer is a totally ignorant noob and doesn't have any idea what he's talking about
Unstated Obvious: Well nobody is a complete noob/idiot/w.e, even if it may seem like it rofl, and there's the obvious fact that worstplayer was exaggerating (everything is inevitably and exaggeration one way or the other)
Implication: Well basically this post was just to emphasize the variety specifically available to Zun's games. That + standard offense taken from *ignorant person debating + having invalid points* (who doesn't take offense at that lol) Basically that's how Erinu perceives worstplayer's post.

harsh but it makes points

Icarus
Carbon copy of above.
Implication: Cave has more variety (implication is more, and not "at least as much" or "also has" in context of worstplayer's post and this topic). If Erinu is ignoring the possibility that the

Carbon copy posts tend to be lolworthy (which=slight jocular nature) in any context.
Someone who perceives the post to be mockery will take offense though.
Now, this is when Erinu's troll accusation flies in wheeee. This really only happens if one doesn't realize the other person has points. In this case, Erinu sees a carbon copy post and doesn't find any points in it, concludes it's inciteful in nature, then labels it as trolling.

then these posts

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 769#315769
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 787#315787
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 816#315816

then mine then your response to mine (quoted @ beginning of this post)

^^^^^
The above was an attempt to describe abstract thought processes that take like 5 seconds LOL

Every single e-conflict I've seen occurs when one side fails to grasp the other's points. That alone is not enough though. It only occurs when the post sounds like trolling when its points are ignored. Then the troll accusation is the tipping point where it starts to get epic and attract real trolls like me lol. And man, I've been a lot of these things, because as soon as I notice one I'm in there doing all sorts of shit lol

Failing to grasp one's points (especially obvious ones) comes off as ignorance.
Ignorance + arguing anyways w/ invalid points = offensive lol
which = TEH TROLLZ

unintentional but still trolling
Worst kind imo though since they don't realize they're doing something wrong and will be more tenacious.

other notable things that affect perspectives (which are factors that can lead to these misunderstandings then to megadramaz)

Time Dilution Effect
-Those participating in a debate are focused on specific details since there are long periods between posts.
-Those reviewing it will focus on the general chain of events since the time period is shortened.

Focusing on little details will divert attention away from the big picture. Also a source of 'obsession' (for lack of a neutral term).

Expectations
-past actions of other members lead to certain expectations of how they will act in the future
-these expectations skew perceptions of these members and can easily distort the current context
-tends to be hilarious if a member is predictable though

duh

Harlequin · Post by **Harlequin** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:44 pm

Seriously i wish Cave would port all thier games and also Xnauts/Psykio port all there games and get to making some NEW ones, why arent they making any SHmups these days?
Hmmm dont need to answer that i think they are making Porn now

Also just let the guy from Raizing make 2 games a year at CAVE
and i will be happy

While this thread has grown (comparing CAve with and Independant game maker i think is HILARIOUS) i have tried some NEWER Shmups just to see if the crap i originally posted still held.

Homura - BLEH
Psyvariar 2 - BLAH
Shikigami 2 - Not bad but still not in CAVE territory.

Im going to check out a few more but dont like my chances :/

On the other hand, Im loving Ibara (obviously) and really getting
into ESPGaluda too!

All i want is for other Companies to give CAVE a run for thier
money and drive some competitivism in the market, create alot
more better games and maybe that will turn the whole Shmup genre around.

I hope :/

Icarus, man i love all your Strategy guides here, keep up the great work!

Harlequin

sven666 · Post by **sven666** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:14 pm

there are ports of every psikyo shmup except for zero gunner isnt there??

theyre not making shmups (or anything fr that matter) because theyre not around anymore.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:17 pm

Harlequin wrote: All i want is for other companies to give CAVE a run for thier
money and drive some competitivism in the market, create alot
more better games and maybe that will turn the whole Shmup genre around.

be careful what you wish for - if there were more companies making arcade shmups cave could go bankrupt. psikyo and raizing and takumi and toaplan and (etc etc etc) don't make shmups anymore despite being around during the golden age. and that's because they were fighting over slices of quite a small pie. it's kinda good that cave have got this small niche genre practically to themselves now.

i'm not sure a "run for their money" would be so great

qatmix · Post by **qatmix** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:42 pm

As much as I love Cave games, I have to admit to having a real soft spot for G-Rev I think there games and their variety have made them more interesting as a company going forward.. I can only take so many tweaks on the same old formula.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:21 pm

Harlequin wrote: Homura - BLEH
Psyvariar 2 - BLAH
Shikigami 2 - Not bad but still not in CAVE territory.

Dude, play them for more than 30 minutes. They aren't SNES shooters.

Each of these games deserves at least a week to figure out.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:03 am

Rob wrote:
Harlequin wrote: Homura - BLEH
Psyvariar 2 - BLAH
Shikigami 2 - Not bad but still not in CAVE territory.
Dude, play them for more than 30 minutes. They aren't SNES shooters.

Each of these games deserves at least a week to figure out.

If I'm not seeing scanlines and 3d rendered sprites I'm not going to bother

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:36 am

I find Homura to be much more enjoyable than either Psyvariar 2 and Castle Shikigami 2, both of which while quite mediocre, aren't what I'd call bad.

Post by **spadgy** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:17 am

Homura is quite a hidden treat that rarely gets the praise it deserves, but I'd have to disagree that Psyvariar 2 is mediocre. Once I discovered the 'ramming before shooting' technique I fell in love, but of course we all have our own tastes.

Which is the lesson of this whole thread isn't it? We all love different shmup-types...

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:05 am

Yeup ^_^ There's two big complaints I have with Psyvariar 2. I LOATHE the wiggle mechanic for focused fire and extra grazing, and I'm not too fond of the ability to full invuln and trivialize entire sections of stage and boss patterns.

But that's like Rob not liking enemy chaining. Some people dig it, some don't.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:30 am

psyvariar 2 reminds me of those broken doujins i play all the time

You just take one mechanic and abuse the crap outta it.

Harlequin · Post by **Harlequin** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:03 am

Isnt X-nauts Psykio now? I see their name on the PS2 Psykip ports.

Im going to give all three a few weeks, but i dont like
the whole bullet grazing NO POWER UP gameplay :/

I like power ups LOTS of them

I like BOMBS too

Shikigami looks really interesting tho and i admit i havent
given that a real decent go yet, the other two played quite a bit.

Why dont these three have 2P mode? Or am i missing something?

Also i think 1 ship for Homura and 2 ships for Psyvariar 2 is CHEAP!

Anyway ill post more thoughts after a few weeks of playing them, if
i can drag myself away from ESPGalude and Ibara that is

Harlequin

-Bridget- · Post by **-Bridget-** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:26 am

Rob wrote:
Harlequin wrote: Homura - BLEH
Psyvariar 2 - BLAH
Shikigami 2 - Not bad but still not in CAVE territory.
Dude, play them for more than 30 minutes. They aren't SNES shooters.

Each of these games deserves at least a week to figure out.

Definitely agreed.

I've got a copy of Homura on it's way (GET HERE ALREADY DAMMIT), and I play Shiki 2 regularly....

As much as I LOVE Cave, I actually like Shiki 2 even more, and Giga Wing as my top fave.

Note that in my experience, Shiki 2 is more fun when you're playing for score, but that's just my opinion.

Either way, that 4th boss is a total snotwad.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:14 am

-Bridget- wrote: Either way, that 4th boss is a total snotwad.

Is that the one where you have to keep the walls from closing in? SNS2 has some pretty cool bosses.

shoe-sama wrote:psyvariar 2 reminds me of those broken doujins i play all the time

Except there's nothing broken about Psyvariar 2. Maintaining invincibility takes skill. It's how it was designed to be played.

-Bridget- · Post by **-Bridget-** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:29 am

Rob wrote:
-Bridget- wrote: Either way, that 4th boss is a total snotwad.
Is that the one where you have to keep the walls from closing in? SNS2 has some pretty cool bosses.

No, no, that's the 4-1 boss. Dont have much trouble with that one.

I meant the 4-2 boss. Boy do I just hate her..... If Im gonna screw up anywhere during a run of this game, it's gonna be either during that fight, or just in 4-2 (the part where the game abruptly speeds up after slowing down, argh).

She's also the only boss that I cant get much score out of.

I've no trouble with the 5-1 boss, or the final boss, but her...... just UGH.

I agree, though, this game has some deeply awesome boss fights.

charlie chong · Post by **charlie chong** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:51 am

lolz at all the arsehurt!

Post by **spadgy** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:19 pm

Rob wrote:
shoe-sama wrote:psyvariar 2 reminds me of those broken doujins i play all the time
Except there's nothing broken about Psyvariar 2. Maintaining invincibility takes skill. It's how it was designed to be played.

Yes! A LOT of skill...

To much for me to be nearing a 1CC doing the game properly in fact. Playing it just shooting your way through is one thing, but in fact pursuing the invincibility is actually almost harder...

powerfuran · Post by **powerfuran** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:47 pm

Seems like the 2.5D games haven't manage to get appreciation yet, from most people I mean..... I'm talking about Psyv 1-2, Shikigami no SHiro 2-3; they happen to be my favourite games, and even in AEX I don't have the chance to enjoy talking about their mechanics 'cause "CAVE stuff is way superior" or sort of that. As time passes by, this issue can become very annoying... can't wait for some poligonal game by cave!!!

320x240 · Post by **320x240** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:05 pm

powerfuran wrote:can't wait for some poligonal game by cave!!!

If they ever start using a higher resolution, polygons will be what they are doing.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:09 am

powerfuran wrote:Seems like the 2.5D games haven't manage to get appreciation yet, from most people I mean....

Isn't Shiki 2 on the forum's Top 25 list? If not, it was, very recently...as for Psyvariar, those who dislike it, at least from what I've seen, aren't citing its graphics, but its unusual playstyle (especially when going for a high score). Not to mention that the game's fans are not shy about defending it. The same goes for plenty of other such shmups.

I think most people here aren't averse to 2.5-D games because they're 2.5-D ; if they dislike a 2.5-D game it's for some reason other than its appearance.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:12 am

BulletMagnet wrote: Isn't Shiki 2 on the forum's Top 25 list?

That's because the list is made by people who can think of more than 3 games they like.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:23 am

are there even 25 shmups?

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:43 am

About 30 if you count Rez and Contra.

Harlequin · Post by **Harlequin** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:02 am

BulletMagnet wrote:
powerfuran wrote:Seems like the 2.5D games haven't manage to get appreciation yet, from most people I mean....
Isn't Shiki 2 on the forum's Top 25 list? If not, it was, very recently...as for Psyvariar, those who dislike it, at least from what I've seen, aren't citing its graphics, but its unusual playstyle (especially when going for a high score). Not to mention that the game's fans are not shy about defending it. The same goes for plenty of other such shmups.

I think most people here aren't averse to 2.5-D games because they're 2.5-D ; if they dislike a 2.5-D game it's for some reason other than its appearance.

I agree, I dont like pSy because of its gameplay mechanics, its graphics
look stunning and beuatiful and its the only thing making me still want to play it

Im really REALLY getting into SHiki 2. I played it for 2 days now
and i have to admit the DONT judge a book by its cover applies to
this game. Seriously this game is F U N!

I read Icurus article on Shiki 3 and he says the gameplay is drastically
different than 2 and its much more Raizing style. Can anyone confirm?

I really want to pick it up but i am not buying a X360 or Wii for one
game

Port it to PS2 you asses!

Harlequin

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:11 am

if u play for score then yeah

If not you just get a shitload of extends so it becomes more liek touhou lol

powerfuran · Post by **powerfuran** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:06 am

I think most people here aren't averse to 2.5-D games because they're 2.5-D ; if they dislike a 2.5-D game it's for some reason other than its appearance.

I see the point

. It's only that, by chance, most of these games feature mechanics that look repetitive, "simple", and because of that the conclusion is they're boring or so. I mean, it's strange that it's still hard to get most people realize that this is not true (I'm not referring specifically to this board, as I post here and read seldom; I talk about my friends in Italy, with those guys I have this general feeling).

If we talk about mechanics as a big part of the modern shmup as a genre, I just can't understand (for instance) why Mushihimesama Futari is in some way superior to Shikigami no Shiro 2.
However this doesn't change the fact that Cave games are THE fuel for the genre itself nowadays,and that other companies' products are in most cases great gems but not "the rule" imho.

unsane · Post by **unsane** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:08 am

BulletMagnet wrote:Isn't Shiki 2 on the forum's Top 25 list? If not, it was, very recently

Indeed, it's ranked #9 all time.

powerfuran wrote:If we talk about mechanics as a big part of the modern shmup as a genre, I just can't understand (for instance) why Mushihimesama Futari is in some way superior to Shikigami no Shiro 2.

The only Cave games that ranked higher than shiki2 were Dodonpachi (#1) and ESPGaluda (#8 ) heh.