Seriously, who is going to beat CAVE?

[evil_ash_xero]

Cave's the best company that regularly puts out shooters. However, I have prefered Treasure's output(Ikaruga/Gradius V) over Cave's in the new millenium. GV and Ikaruga are both two of my absolute favorite shooters ever.

GRev didn't do much for me with Under Defeat, and other than that, that's all i've played. They're about it.

s/m

[Goshi]

The closest anyone has come to that is Treasure with Ikaruga of which
i have yet to see but i trust everyone on these boards that its a great game.

No love for Psikyo? =(

[unsane]

No love for Psikyo? =(

Well there's just the minor detail that they haven't made a shmup in 7 years.

[Erinu]

ZUN

/thread

everyone already LOLed at this.. no fun just repeating jokes.

LOL'd because CAVE is dying and ZUN isn't? Have fun with your barely-existent fan-related CAVE material, and 1 shooting game (if that) a year, along with the high probability that their games won't be playable to 90% of people here, due to them not releasing them on a commonsensical format.

Keep holding on.

[Dandy J]

everything sucks now

[shoe-sama]

lol stgt 2010

all touhou games

[FIL]

I can't wait for Shoot the Embodiment of Phantasmagoria of Highly Responsive to Mystic Perfect Eastern Lotus Land Imperishable Mountain!

[worstplayer]

At least every time Cave makes new game it's somewhat original. Zun's games on the other hand are just same slow circular patterns over and over and over. They even LOOK the same.

[-Bridget-]

At least every time Cave makes new game it's somewhat original. Zun's games on the other hand are just same slow circular patterns over and over and over. They even LOOK the same.

Agreed.


No matter how many times I try them, I just cant get into Zun's games overmuch.

They're not bad, but.....



I dunno, there's like this overall SLOWNESS to them that I just dont care for. Generally not fond of the scoring systems either.


Yeah, I wish Cave would put out more games, and PORT THE DAMN THINGS ALREADY, but......


Nevertheless, Cave outdoes everyone else in my book.



Psikyo is my 2nd favorite, definitely.

[unsane]

Who/what is this Zun everyone talks about?

[Twiddle]

he makes the touhou game series

there are two kinds of touhou fan

the first kind just plays the games and wishes the second group would go away

the second kind jerks off to the character designs in any way imaginable without actually playing the games at all and makes fun of the first group for wasting their time

[Erinu]

At least every time Cave makes new game it's somewhat original. Zun's games on the other hand are just same slow circular patterns over and over and over. They even LOOK the same.

You really don't know what you're talking about, haven't played the games much, and just come off as plain dumb.

Each touhou game has a different scoring system, different characters, different enemies, although they're reminiscent of the previous games, they are essentially sequels.

Comparing the difficulty of EoSD to IN is just laughable. Comparing a game that you can see your hitbox in and enemy marker over a game which you can't is also laughable. And most certainly saying that the games are slow means you're not playing on a challenging difficulty.

This kind of inane response needs not a follow-up, because you're bound to come up with some other bullshit that declares that Cave R Superior. They're not. And they haven't been doin' shit since 2006.

If you're so smart, go see how long you last in Hard or Lunatic modes of some of his games. You won't last long, and the bullets ARE fast, and are appropriately slow when needed, yet still difficult. Unless you want impossible bullshit with a constant speed like stage 5 Mushihimesama Futari, that's fine! Go enjoy your $900 game and few hundred dollar supergun.

Irrelevant. Best you avoid something you can't handle.

he makes the touhou game series

there are two kinds of touhou fan

the first kind just plays the games and wishes the second group would go away

the second kind jerks off to the character designs in any way imaginable without actually playing the games at all and makes fun of the first group for wasting their time

I really fucking hate this. People liking fan-related material of touhou and noy actually playing or knowing of the games. IOSYS made them pretty popular with the flashes, and /a/ has made Cirno into a meme, but they're not usually liked for the games themselves. It's annoying as fuck considering it'd be identical to enjoying the purchase of a game without actually owning the console, or buying a game for an included art book.

[elvis]

Yeah, I wish Cave would put out more games, and PORT THE DAMN THINGS ALREADY, but......

Sadly this world is ruled by the mighty dollar. Someone on these boards linked to Cave's 2006 EOY financial report which stated clearly that console ports were one of their worst financial ROI, and as such the company was going to ignore them for the next few years at least.

As much as I'm a geographically disadvantaged gamer living thousands of miles away from Japan, or any arcade that would have a Cave game in it for that matter, and wish that Cave would port their games to ANY game console (or PC for that matter), I can totally understand why they don't. We've all got kids to feed and mortgages to pay. And sometimes doing the fun things in life don't make enough money to pay for the basics. If they did, I'd stop working full time and do nothing but make joysticks. But sadly, that doesn't put food on the table for my family.

Cave will port if gamers will buy. Being who they are and what they make, there's little likelihood in this modern era of ADD-afflicted EA sports playing mindless gamers buying Cave games. I've ranted on the Shoryuken forums about the same thing in the 2D fighting game world for exactly the same reasons. These genres will never die as long as there's people still playing the games, but with that said the financial viability of commercial companies pumping out a steady stream of games becomes less and less likely as the world moves on.

[MX7]

ZUN is my second favourite developer after Cave. His games are beautiful and extremely well made. They also all look exactly the same. It's not a bad thing, and is certainly understandable for such a small dev, but it's also indisputable.

Also, Gypsy Rectal Prolapse looks into her crystal ball and sez:

From 2009 to 2010, three Cave SH3 games will be ported to a home console. One of them will be Deathsmiles. Another may well be Mushi 2. They will sell a modest amount. The mists are too thick to see anything else.

I hope this satisfies everyone who's wondering about Cave ports.

[FIL]

I like ZUN's games but the stuff about the fanbase is true, I especially dislike their over-use and often misuse of the word 'danmaku'.

[Zebra Airforce]

LOL'd because CAVE is dying and ZUN isn't? Have fun with your barely-existent fan-related CAVE material, and 1 shooting game (if that) a year, along with the high probability that their games won't be playable to 90% of people here, due to them not releasing them on a commonsensical format.

You really don't know what you're talking about, haven't played the games much, and just come off as plain dumb.

[320x240]

Shmups are an aquired taste anyway, so there is really no reason to have fights over the different types. Most shmups have something that is gimmicky - it's in their nature. It's when these gimmicks aren't implemented well that the game should be critisized. I personally don't like to many bullets on screen because they slow the players movement down. That could well be down to the fact that I have only just started playing them again, though.

[Frederik]

Ibara is actually a "Raising" game, it was develop by "Raising's" guys.

Raisings? Ugh. I´m allergic to raisings.

[worstplayer]

You really don't know what you're talking about, haven't played the games much, and just come off as plain dumb.

I played them enough to see what they're all about.

Each touhou game has a different scoring system, different characters, different enemies, although they're reminiscent of the previous games, they are essentially sequels.

Exactly, they're sequels and nothing more.

Comparing the difficulty of EoSD to IN is just laughable. Comparing a game that you can see your hitbox in and enemy marker over a game which you can't is also laughable. And most certainly saying that the games are slow means you're not playing on a challenging difficulty.

I said they are all the same and slow, I never said they're easy. All difficulties except Lunatic are slow, just with more and more bullets. And placing blurry blob over player and calling it visible hitbox is just as laughable.

This kind of inane response needs not a follow-up, because you're bound to come up with some other bullshit that declares that Cave R Superior. They're not. And they haven't been doin' shit since 2006.

Cave released Muchi Muchi Pork and Death Smiles in 2007. That's hardly "doin' shit", especially when those are completely new games instead of "sequels".

If you're so smart, go see how long you last in Hard or Lunatic modes of some of his games. You won't last long, and the bullets ARE fast, and are appropriately slow when needed, yet still difficult. Unless you want impossible bullshit with a constant speed like stage 5 Mushihimesama Futari, that's fine! Go enjoy your $900 game and few hundred dollar supergun.

Because all Cave games are like Mushi's 5th boss. And again: I NEVER SAID TOUHOU IS EASY.

Irrelevant. Best you avoid something you can't handle.

WTF?

EDIT: IN is still a good game, but not comparable to Cave.

[Icarus]

... stuff.

You really don't know what you're talking about, haven't played the games much, and just come off as plain dumb.

Each Cave game has a different scoring system, different characters, different enemies, although they're reminiscent of the previous games, they are essentially both sequels and brand-new entities.

Comparing the difficulty of Daioujou to Espgaluda is just laughable. Comparing a game that you can see your hitbox in and the entire screen with over a game which you can't is also laughable. And most certainly saying that the games are slow means you're not playing on a challenging difficulty.

This kind of inane response needs not a follow-up, because you're bound to come up with some other bullshit that declares that ZUN IZ SUPERIOR. He's not. And he hasn't been doin' shit since 2003.

If you're so smart, go see how long you last in Mushi Futari ULTRA or Ketsui or some of their other games. You won't last long, and the bullets ARE fast, and are appropriately slow when needed, yet still difficult. Unless you want "attempted impossibility" like the QED of 495 Years spellcard in EosD, that's fine! Go enjoy your $50 game and masses of related wank material.

Irrelevant. Best you avoid something you can't handle.

[spadgy]

Looks like we all have different tastes really, and that's about it.

I don't pretend to get Touhou stuff, but I admit that's ignorance because I'm just not really into that kind of shooter. I love Cave, so I've played it enough to appreciate the subtleties and variation. Touhou does seem all the same to me, but that's because I know nothing about it, so to discredit it would be stupid of me. Like saying 'it all sounds the same' about a music genre I know nothing about.

I'm sure it's great, but Cave seems better as I like it more. Surely the only people who have extensive experience of both are well placed to argue.

Very clever response by the way Icarus, you cunning devil!

[gcjae1]

Variety as they say, is the spice of life.

I personally really like all of Cave's output. The spare time have to devote to shmups currently is limited to their titles

That hasn't stopped me really enjoying Radiant Silvergun, Ikaruga, Gradius V, Gundird 1 + 2, Strikers 1945, R-Type and the plethora classic shmups on the PC Engine, Super Famicom, Megadrive etc etc in the past.

I have never played any of the Touhou games so it would be impossible for me to comment.

[Twiddle]

... stuff.

You really don't know what you're talking about, haven't played the games much, and just come off as plain dumb.

Each Cave game has a different scoring system, different characters, different enemies, although they're reminiscent of the previous games, they are essentially both sequels and brand-new entities.

Comparing the difficulty of Daioujou to Espgaluda is just laughable. Comparing a game that you can see your hitbox in and the entire screen with over a game which you can't is also laughable. And most certainly saying that the games are slow means you're not playing on a challenging difficulty.

This kind of inane response needs not a follow-up, because you're bound to come up with some other bullshit that declares that ZUN IZ SUPERIOR. He's not. And he hasn't been doin' shit since 2003.

If you're so smart, go see how long you last in Mushi Futari ULTRA or Ketsui or some of their other games. You won't last long, and the bullets ARE fast, and are appropriately slow when needed, yet still difficult. Unless you want "attempted impossibility" like the QED of 495 Years spellcard in EosD, that's fine! Go enjoy your $50 game and masses of related wank material.

Irrelevant. Best you avoid something you can't handle.

owned

i don't like what cave puts out but it's way better than what zun puts out and they are actually giving non-danmaku gameplay a chance

also, erinu, would your opinion of zun change if you found out he was xenophobic and gaijin-hating (i can tell you love these kinds of people because scorned animu nerd seethes out of every one of your posts)

(because he is)

bitches love me

[Asherdude]

As it stands, Treasure is about the only developer that could rival Cave. They haven't made as many games, but Treasure games are generally of a much higher caliber than Cave games.

Since most of our Shmups gets japanese only releases. And with the Japanese market moving toward total Nintendo domination. Link. I'm betting that the first company to make a major shmup push on the Wii will be the next big shmup developer. And it'll be weird as hell if that ends up being Bizarre Creations.

[FIL]

I can't imagine ZUN being any more xenophobic than the rest of the Japanese videogame industry.

[Twiddle]

I can't imagine ZUN being any more xenophobic than the rest of the Japanese videogame industry.

the japanese videogame industry is pretty much the opposite of xenophobic, and it has to be; foreign sales prop up big budget projects by a huge amount. people like infinity ward or valve don't have to care, because the US interest in first person game is big enough to not have to care about the foreign market (yet valve localizes in every major language possible just because they can)

this is not true for lower-key or more niche products:

cave, for example, focuses no effort on porting and localizations just because it won't be profitable.

[shoe-sama]

They haven't made as many games, but Treasure games are generally of a much higher caliber than Cave games.

[DEL]

Asherdude wrote;

As it stands, Treasure is about the only developer that could rival Cave. They haven't made as many games, but Treasure games are generally of a much higher caliber than Cave games.

^What, because they have grandiose music?! I'm not fooled by the soundtrack. To me, Radiant and Ika are puzzle games.
I'm certainly no Cave fanboy but still I have to disagree with;

but Treasure games are generally of a much higher caliber than Cave games.

worstplayer wrote;

At least every time Cave makes new game it's somewhat original.

Emphasis on the somewhat .
Bullet Curtains, small craft hitbox, thread it through the eye of a needle a few hundred times.
Next game: Bullet Curtains, small craft hitbox, thread it through the eye of a needle a few hundred times.
Next game: Bullet Curtains, small craft hitbox, thread it through the eye of a needle a few hundred times.
Next Game: Bullet Curtains, small craft hitbox, thread it through the eye of a needle a few hundred times - turn it HORIZONTAL.
Next game: Bullet Curtains, small craft hitbox, thread it through the eye of a needle a few hundred times.

New scoring engine each time though, so that's ok .

Don't worry, I do like Cave games and I'm glad that Raizing still exists by being subsumed by Cave...IBARA, PS etc.
Is Cave the last bastion of shooting hope? Yes. One exceptional game from GREV doesn't constitute a 2D shooting future.

[moozooh]

I like how people using the same inane arguments against each other to protect the favorite developer. Are you stupid or what? All aforementioned developers are good, it's the tastes and challenges of games produced that differ.

there are two kinds of touhou fan

the first kind just plays the games and wishes the second group would go away

the second kind jerks off to the character designs in any way imaginable without actually playing the games at all and makes fun of the first group for wasting their time

Heh, I know very well what you mean. I actually dislike character art Zun has put out since IN on (earlier was better). Btw, I was playing DDP recently, and came to a conclusion that the effort needed for 1CC'ing it for me is about comparable to beating any given Touhou game except MoF and PoFV on Hard.

Also, in case Touhou haters haven't noticed it yet, playing parts 06, 07, and 08 plainly for survival is about equivalent to playing Ikaruga without bothering to chain or eat bullet streams whatsoever. It's the scoring systems that give these games their depth and complexity (since there is a LOT of different factors involved in scoring in every Touhou game) and make the player move around the entire screen even during the easy parts — not pretty bullet patterns or cheesy music.

[Twiddle]

I dislike most Touhou scoring systems, really, since they're lopsided into a particular gimmick that is emphasized in the current entry of the series, as opposed to, say, taking many factors to account whether it be for rank (Yagawa) or scoring (Seibu.)

Also, I prefer bullet patterns where they exist to be figured out and not just for looks. Almost everything classified as danmaku are guilty of this at times. Pretty much a matter of personal taste at this point.