Seriously, who is going to beat CAVE?

[Harlequin]

I am finally convinced that if it wasnt for CAVE i would never of got back into Shmups and the genre would of been dead ten years ago.

I checked put the Chronology of Shooters and in the past 7
years there has been no company let alone a Shooter
that comes close to any of the games CAVE have made.

Does this make me a CAVE fan boy, nope i prefer the Psykio/Raising
style of games but after discovering Ibara recently i am finally
convinced these guys are the MASTERS of the genre by a thousand
miles.

2001-2007:

Progear, DDP DOJ, Ketsui, ESPGaluda, Mushi, Ibara, ESPGII, Pink Sweets, Mushi Futari, MM pork and Death Smiles

The closest anyone has come to that is Treasure with Ikaruga of which
i have yet to see but i trust everyone on these boards that its a great game.

END of STORY

Thank you CAVE!


Harlequin

[clp]

ikaruga is probably the biggest marmite shmup ever you will either really love it or really hate it .

[SAM]

Ibara is actually a "Raising" game, it was develop by "Raising's" guys.

[zinger]

Border Down.

[elfhentaifan]

Ibara is actually a "Raising" game, it was develop by "Raising's" guys.

Dont forget the Cave-styled Arrange mode

[RGC]

ikaruga is probably the biggest marmite shmup ever you will either really love it or really hate it .

It's quite good.

[MX7]

Border Down.

lol

[320x240]

Cave, like Treasure, get a lot of credit for constantly updating a tried and tested genre. Of course there is a lot of hype too. I have a feeling some of their later inventions are more of an afterthought than born out of good design - like having playing mechancis that allow more bullets on screen at the same time (color-changing, slow bullets etc...).

I don't like the direction that Caves vertically oriented games are going really - at least not until I get a chance to play them Judging from videos it looks like they are turning into some sort of bullet-labyrinth games. Where's the flow?

[FIL]

Dooyong.

[PROMETHEUS]

I think Treasure is kind of on-par with Cave on this. They're awesome at their own kind of STG like Cave are awesome at theirs.

[P_HAT]

Zun

[Shatterhand]

The difference is that Treasure made 4 shmups, one of them being quite crap (RSG, Ikaruga, Gradius V and Silpheed being the crap one), while Cave has like 20 shmups , all of them of a very high quality (you may like them or not, I am not a big fan of Cave, but there's no deny their games are of high quality).

Of course, Treasure also makes games of other genres, Cave has more than 95% of its titles on the shmups genre.

At this point, Cave has ex-workers from Toaplan, Compile, Raizing and who knows. It seems like every japanese who is into making shmups will end up at Cave at some time.

[charlie chong]

At this point, Cave has ex-workers from Toaplan, Compile, Raizing and who knows. It seems like every japanese who is into making shmups will end up at Cave at some time.

this is why they are the best!! proper pedigree ! some people may prefer games from the companies that cave employees came from but these companies are no longer so therefore cave are easy the best current shooter company and some of the games still retain the feel of the old (mushi original,ibara etc)

they just need to ditch the crap fantasy art (mushi,esp) and even crapper music..

[GaijinPunch]

Here's a piece of trivia I would like to know: What was the last non-fighting arcade game not made by Cave, that was mainly 2D... not in style like Ikaruga, but in Sprites. I recall the Type X having one platformer that did okay, but not great. Other than that, I'm drawing a blank. Had to be Naomi Puzzle game right? Point being, Cave is the only company making games "the old way". They are also sticklers for quality. A winning combo.

[moozooh]

I think Treasure is kind of on-par with Cave on this. They're awesome at their own kind of STG like Cave are awesome at theirs.

I agree. Treasure designs their shmups to have epic feel (their plots, music, and background design reflect that very well), add unexpected new ideas and polish them until they work flawlessly. Cave is more about evolving the old (Toaplan-originated?) concepts and formulae to make new games both more challenging and fun (bigger explosions, more powerful weapons, more bullets, more upbeat music, all that). But I guess I should say Treasure releases their shmups way too rarely to provide any possible competition for Cave, so Cave will likely remain the modern shmup flagship, at least for me.

[PsikyoPshumpPshooterP]

Clover-TAC

[dai jou bu]

If it wasn't for Senko no Ronde, I would've given up on shmups a long time ago. Cave's style is nice, but I'm sick of practically everyone else aping it when there's several other interesting ideas out there to be implemented, as a handful of other shmups out there demonstrate.

[kengou]

I completely agree. Cave is just so far above stuff like Psikyo or Raizing, in terms of the polish and depth of their games. I'll play Psikyo and Raizing just for fun, but it's hard to make any serious effort with any of them. The only one that I really like to play is Strikers 1945 ii, and that one still feels less fair and polished than anything cave makes. The only competition for Cave is Treasure, but they have like 3 games. Now, Ikaruga, RSG, and Gradius V are all some of my favorite shmups of all time, but they really feel completely different from DDP or ESP or any of Cave's stuff. Treasure has a very unique style with very unique shmups. Cave makes traditional shmups, but just polishes them to a very high level. I love both companies, but right now I mainly play Cave, and mostly because they have so many games of such high quality. DDP, DOJ, Guwange, esprade, espgaluda, mushi...

[Shion]

Even if there would be serious competition for Cave, it wouldn't really matter to them. The company does a lot of other stuff, things not even related to games or the arcade scene at all.

That said, I also think they're the best dev studio on the genre at the moment. It's a shame the genre isn't bigger, I wouldn't mind seeing some more companies doing their best.

[Shatterhand]

I completely agree. Cave is just so far above stuff like Psikyo or Raizing, in terms of the polish and depth of their games. I'll play Psikyo and Raizing just for fun, but it's hard to make any serious effort with any of them. The only one that I really like to play is Strikers 1945 ii, and that one still feels less fair and polished than anything cave makes. The only competition for Cave is Treasure, but they have like 3 games. Now, Ikaruga, RSG, and Gradius V are all some of my favorite shmups of all time, but they really feel completely different from DDP or ESP or any of Cave's stuff. Treasure has a very unique style with very unique shmups. Cave makes traditional shmups, but just polishes them to a very high level. I love both companies, but right now I mainly play Cave, and mostly because they have so many games of such high quality. DDP, DOJ, Guwange, esprade, espgaluda, mushi...

I kinda disagree here. Raizing and Psikyo don't exist anymore, Cave does, so it's unfair to compare it like that. I can't see Battle Garegga being any less polished than Esp.ra.de, both being released more or less at the same time. Strikers 1945 II isn't as "manic", but it surely is very polished too. Of course the modern Cave shmups will look better than whatever Raizing made 10 years ago, but if Raizing and Psikyo were still around , I am pretty sure their games would be able compete with Cave ones, at least on the "How much is this polished?" department.

Let's not forget that Psikyo was in a very interesting curve of evolution when they ceased to exist as a shmup developer. I am sure a Gunbird 3 or whatever would come later from them would be hugely awesome.

[PROMETHEUS]

I kinda disagree here. Raizing and Psikyo don't exist anymore, Cave does, so it's unfair to compare it like that. I can't see Battle Garegga being any less polished than Esp.ra.de, both being released more or less at the same time.

In my opinion when you compare Raizing or Psikyo games to Cave games of the same time they still look and play a lot worse. Armed Police Batrider and Gunbird 2 were released 1 year later than Dodonpachi and I think they look worse, sound worse, and play worse.

[Shatterhand]

I think Gunbird 2 was released more than 1 year after DDP... IMO it look better than DDP, and it has a more complex gameplay than DDP. The "plays better" is argueable. I prefer Gunbird 2 to DDD (And I prefer APB over both for the matter), but DDP being at the top spot of your yearly poll for 4 consecutive years means something

I can't see how APB lookes worse than DDP.. it's another kind of art direction, and again, some people may prefer one , other people prefer another. But I think APB gfx is as detailed as DDP, why not?

[spadgy]

At this point, Cave has ex-workers from Toaplan, Compile, Raizing and who knows. It seems like every japanese who is into making shmups will end up at Cave at some time.

Thinking about it like that, Cave are almost becoming like a 'best of' compilation of other STG companies. Like a monster (in a good way) made of limbs and heads of all the other devs... Perhaps one day they really will consume the whole commercial side of the genre.

Of course their games still have a distinct style quite separate from the companies they absorb...

[budloc]

I love Cave but i hope that a company like G-Rev could produce more shmups than actually, Border Down & Under Defeat are awesome and totally different than Cave games.
Same opinion concerning Treasure.

Is Takumi still alive ? A Gigawing 3 could be nice !

[PROMETHEUS]

I can't see how APB lookes worse than DDP.. it's another kind of art direction, and again, some people may prefer one , other people prefer another. But I think APB gfx is as detailed as DDP, why not?

Well indeed I agree it is complicated to argue over which is better art-wise, and that's why I just said "in my opinion".

I think Gunbird 2 was released more than 1 year after DDP... IMO it look better than DDP, and it has a more complex gameplay than DDP. The "plays better" is argueable.

I'm not so knowledgeable about Gunbird 2, why do you think it has a more complex gameplay ?

[Rob]

if it wasnt for CAVE i would never of got back into Shmups and the genre would of been dead ten years ago.

Maybe it would be better off. What if every new release didn't rely on a tedious scoring system? Wait, that still would've happened.

What is Cave responsible for, aside from their own formula? Did Psikyo or Raizing games feel like Cave games? The games that feel like Cave imitations are made by companies like Milestone. Uhh.

Gradius V is the highest ranked 00s shooter in the forum's top 25. Apparently they reached perfection in DDP (over 10 years ago).

after discovering Ibara recently i am finally
convinced these guys are the MASTERS of the genre by a thousand
miles.

[Rob]

Armed Police Batrider and Gunbird 2 were released 1 year later than Dodonpachi and I think they look worse, sound worse, and play worse.

You like cheesy video game metal that much? And enemy chaining. But DDP has magical bullet dodging.

Shenmue's Excite QTE 2 has more randomness than DDP. A minigame in an interactive story.

[MathU]

Cave sucks.

[mirkvid]

APB > DDP.
yeah, i said it!!

[Nuke]

no cave rulez stfu n00b alltog i like psyco just as much and razing better ok thnx bye lol