The more I learn, the less I know...

[doodude]

Pardon me for posting so many of what may seem to the vast majority of longtime, resident Shumpers as oversimplified questions, but as a newcomer here, this shmup stuff is far more complex than I realized.

I thought I was deep in it with my dozen or so SNES games. And when I branched out to SFC games, why, I thought I was at the pinnacle of the vintage home game experience. Oh how droll...

But then I joined this site & learned new words like Radiant Silvergun, Mars Matrix, Giga Wing, Gunbird, Salamander & on & on. And I understood, I dont know jack about Shmups!!!

So here, is another question. This one is about systems. Im not prepared just yet, to start buying several systems. For one thing, I just dont have the time or the space to do this. Not to mention the cost.

I want to stay ( I think ) with the more vintage era games & systems because I think I would enjoy them more & I can get more for my money than buying an Xbox or PS3 & the related games.

I have a chance to purchase a Dreamcast ( I havent seen yet ) from a coworker for a good price. No $ amount has been mentioned yet so whats a fair price? Ive seen several games that are available for this system that Im interested in. Mars Matrix, Giga Wing 2, Gunbird 2, Salamander, just to name a few.

I also have a chance to buy a beautiful early edition JAP Saturn for a fair price & all the games mentioned above are available too. Somewhere...

So which system to invest in? I am going to limit myself for the next year to just one console, a US/JAP Dreamcast or a US/JAP Sega Saturn. ( Im going to try anyway )
Which is the better system technologically? Am I right that the Dreamcast is a better, more advanced console, but limited by its short lifespan thanks to Playstation?
Am I also correct in that the Sega Saturn has more games available due to its longer life span? But are there more Shmups or just more sports & RPGs etc?

If you could only have one console, a US/JAP Dreamcast or a US/JAP Saturn, What would you advise & why would you advise it?



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[spadgy]

You might well start a very long drawn out debate with this one! It basically boils down to opinion.

I'd say there's more shmups on the Saturn, but I have some mainstays on the DC I play all the time.

Both have their rare games, cheap games and expensive games.

Really - you can't make a bad choice with those two options. I'd say get whichever and then you're guaranteed some great shmups. And if you fall in love with the genre (and a DC or Sat are great starting point for the romance!) you'll inevitably eventually get another console, and another, and an arcade cab, and so on and so on. I'm betting one day you'll have both!

[SuperPang]

Saturn launched in 94/95, Dreamcast in 98/99, both had a similar lifespan, both lost console wars to Sony but are still better consoles

You definitely want Japanese or US with import adapters

Choose Saturn if you want arcade conversions of the best of the mid-late nineties and some classic packs for earlier stuff

Choose DC if you want to sample mainly newer Naomi based stuff

[PC Engine Fan X!]

For doodude,

May I suggest picking up an NEC PC Engine Duo console and checking out the vast shmup collection for it. You can't go wrong with such a classic cult Japanese console like the PC Engine/TurboGrafx-16/Turbo Duo console lineup...... ^_~

Sure, the only Arcade CD-Rom2 shmup game (with appropiate Arcade Card upgrade) was Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire aka "Galaxy Space Police Woman Sapphire". Just beware of countfeit copies circulating around and get a genuine copy for posterity (and still commands a high price on the secondary console gaming collector's market to this very day). Was released in December of 1995 in limited numbers...

For the American market from 1989 to 1994, NEC & later on, Turbo Technologies Incorporated (TTI), really didn't release that many killer-app game titles for both the TG-16 & Turbo Duo console platforms when they could've easily done so. The solution to that particular problem: buy such imported (and very expensive as well) PCE games from reputable import gaming businesses back in those days such as Turbo Zone Direct (TZD), NCSX, G&G Captron, Ultimate Game Store, etc. ^_~

TTI's very last American TG-16/Turbo Duo Hu-Card cartridge release was none other than "Magical Chase" & it was released in limited numbers back in late 1993 timeline. It is the hardest to find regarding USA region Hu-card game titles even today. Just be prepared to spend some some serious $$$ for it... ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[SteevTee]

At some point last year I bought a Saturn purely so I could play Radiant Silvergun (I really wanted to see what the hype was about). and second hand Saturns can be picked up pretty cheaply these days. I did not regret it. Of course there are many other excellent shooters on that system, those that own are: Soukyugurentai, Thunderforce V (and the older ones in a pack I believe) and Darius Gaiden.

[God]

You might well start a very long drawn out debate with this one! It basically boils down to opinion.

I don't see why; at least one of his questions has a concrete, quantifiable answer.

Am I also correct in that the Sega Saturn has more games available due to its longer life span?

In the xenocide files:
Saturn has 56 games listed
Dreamcast has 20 games listed.

So, Saturn has more than twice the shumps that Dreamcast has.

Which is the better system technologically? Am I right that the Dreamcast is a better, more advanced console,

If you just mean which is newer and faster that would be the dreamcast. Saturn is sega's third generation and DC the fourth.

If you could only have one console, a US/JAP Dreamcast or a US/JAP Saturn, What would you advise & why would you advise it?

I'd say Dreamcast, despite the amount of games, for 2 reasons:

-The saturn is older and slower, so it should be easier to emulate on a PC
-The Dreamcast is still alive-ish. Every now and then there's a new, firsthand shmup you can get for it. (It helps keep things alive, unlike buying used "collector's items".)

If you don't care about those points or the game's graphics then the Saturn is the clear winner, I'd say.

silvergun

Silvergun's on the saturn, Ikaruga on the DC. Silvergun's easier to emulate but Ikaruga's on more systems: gamecube (and thru it, the wii), XBLA.

[it290]

-The saturn is older and slower, so it should be easier to emulate on a PC

Not so, the Saturn is insanely complicated, and actually requires more horsepower to emulate than the DC.

I would say DC as well, though, because many of the games are easier to come by, and to me, many of the non-shmup titles are more fun (although Saturn is excellent in this regard as well).

If you really want the best shooting console available, though, I'd say pick up a Japanese PS2.

[clp]

-The saturn is older and slower, so it should be easier to emulate on a PC

Not so, the Saturn is insanely complicated, and actually requires more horsepower to emulate than the DC.

I would say DC as well, though, because many of the games are easier to come by, and to me, many of the non-shmup titles are more fun (although Saturn is excellent in this regard as well).

If you really want the best shooting console available, though, I'd say pick up a Japanese PS2.

must be preference i have dcast and japanese ps2 and id definitely say go with the dreamcast just because the shmups available for it have good variety some you will find cack some you will love ps2 is the winner however if your a devoted cave fan .

[spadgy]

You might well start a very long drawn out debate with this one! It basically boils down to opinion.

I don't see why; at least one of his questions has a concrete, quantifiable answer.

You're right, but these console vs. console threads do usually turn into excellent long debates. Did you check out the most recent Sat vs. PS1 thread. Very passionate debate! It might make you 'see why!'

[Ceph]

If you enjoy old-school, then get a Japanese PC Engine Duo/Duo R/Duo RX now (preferably a Duo R or Duo RX, they were the last models and have better electronic components than Duo). Hardware is about the the same price it used to be (maybe 150 USD for a Duo), but except for a dozen or so high-priced rare games which go for more than 100 USD (Darius Alpha, Sapphire, Sylphia, Nexzr, Dracula X, Magical Chase, Fausette Amour, 1941 [Super Grafx only], Kaze Kiri Ninja Action as well as a few other mostly obscure games) software is at an all-time low at the moment. So now would be the perfect time to start collecting PCE games.

Basically PCE games are now cheaper in the west than they are in Japan (where prices haven't changed much).

[doodude]

WOW! Such great advice. And even GOD is a Shmuper! Oh my G... er um, WOW!!!

Really, I had no idea of the depth you guys have gone into this & when I saw the thread "Show your collection" I was flaberghasted. Das rite, I sed, Fla-Buh-Gaz-Ded!
I am way outa my league here & seriously appreciate everyones tolerance & wisdom.

"IF", ( I cant believe Im even considering this ) I got BOTH consoles, how would I know which games would be best suited for which console? Would Wikipedia be the best reference for that sort of info.

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[Ceph]

You mean "all three", don't you?
Given the current market situation you should seriously consider PCE. Do you like games like Parodius, R-Type and Gradius? Then PC Engine is THE system for you.

Have a look at the forum FAQ, that's a good place to start looking for info on which version of a game is better.

And by the the way, it's not "the more you learn, the less you know", it's "the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know".

[doodude]

You mean "all three", don't you?
Given the current market situation you should seriously consider PCE. Do you like games like Parodius, R-Type and Gradius? Then PC Engine is THE system for you.

Have a look at the forum FAQ, that's a good place to start looking for info which version of a game is better.

And by the the way, it's not "the more you learn, the less you know", it's "the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know".

Please, dont confuse me anymore than I already am. Im is a simple fella what needs to stay data way.

And thanks for the grammar lesson. How silly of me...

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[The Coop]

I'd have to say that the Saturn is the system for you. As has been shown, it has quite a few shmups and shmup compilations on it... including the afore mentioned Gradius/LifeForce series. The Dreamcast has it's own notable library to be sure, but as someone just getting into the genre, you might want to consider going with the system that has the numbers in its favor first. It'll last longer for you in terms of "new games to buy and try".


Also, don't forget about the MegaDrive/Genesis. There are many quality shmups for it, and some that can't be found anywhere else (i.e. GleyLancer, Eliminate Down, Super Fantasy Zone, etc.). Some are cheap, some are expensive, but it's like that on every system.

[Ceph]

Also, don't forget about the MegaDrive/Genesis.

Don't confuse him any further.

[ROBOTRON]

If I were you...I would research the available shmups on both systems and then determine which system to buy based on that knowledge.

What "I" would personally prefer and what another person here would personally prefer, might not be right for you. That being said...

Now if I had a choice of only one system it would be a very difficult choice...I love both systems. Thats why I bought both. But I guess I would go Saturn.

Why? I play it more often than DC...it has more shmups currently (that I play) and I own some rare, rather valuable games. I don't think I could do without Radiant Silvergun honestly.

Now...as far as price is concerned, again I would research sites like Ebay and see what the going rate is. Check your nearby pawn shops and flea markets too...great deals can be had there as well. I think both systems can be found for well under $100 USD...depending on how skillful a shopper you are.

I hope this helps. GL! and remember, you really can't go wrong with either system.

[The Coop]

Also, don't forget about the MegaDrive/Genesis.

Don't confuse him any further.

What, only you get to confuse him? I think not

[kengou]

MAME is your friend. You can try out most of those games, Mars Matrix, Giga Wing, Gunbird 2, as well as a wealth of other awesome shmups like Dodonpachi, Strikers 1945 ii, etc., on your computer, for free. With a cheap $10 USB controller, I don't personally see any reason to actually get the consoles. The Saturn and Dreamcast are emulatable too if your computer can handle it. Radiant Silvergun, for one, runs perfectly in SSF, and in NullDC, you can run Border Down, Triggerheart Exelica, and Under Defeat very well (Ikaruga is too glitchy).

[spadgy]

MAME is your friend. You can try out most of those games, Mars Matrix, Giga Wing, Gunbird 2, as well as a wealth of other awesome shmups like Dodonpachi, Strikers 1945 ii, etc., on your computer, for free. With a cheap $10 USB controller, I don't personally see any reason to actually get the consoles. The Saturn and Dreamcast are emulatable too if your computer can handle it. Radiant Silvergun, for one, runs perfectly in SSF, and in NullDC, you can run Border Down, Triggerheart Exelica, and Under Defeat very well (Ikaruga is too glitchy).

Before this thread starts the MAME debate again, have a look here http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... highlight= as we all recently had a good ol' argument about it a little way into the thread..

I'm pretty much a newbie here, and some knowledgeable people taught me some great things.

I suspect though, that like me you're an owner rather than a MAMEr....

Maybe I'm wrong.

[FIL]

Why not be both?

[spadgy]

Why not be both?

Time!

[doodude]

I have been playing ROMs for a few weeks now.

This is how I learned that the little SNES games I have just dont compare to the RSG, Mars Matrix, GunBird etc...

I also dont lie awake nights worrying about the fairness of ROMs or Napster & the like, but I do feel if Im able to pay, I should pay.
Im grateful to ROMs so that I can 'test drive', but prefer to own a product outright.

I believe that after the terrific advice here & in private postings that the Saturn is my best avenue for the time being.
After I have reached a higher level of ability & understanding of all things Shmup, I can expand my horizons in areas I have only briefly heard about so far.

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[stanski]

Buy the dreamcast and download/burn all the games off billy internet.

Then, with the money you saved from not buying a single game, you can buy a saturn .

[spadgy]

I believe that after the terrific advice here & in private postings that the Saturn is my best avenue for the time being.

...

Good choice sir...

[doodude]

Actually, Ive just made a purchase from our very own Professor Ganson for a packaged deal to include a Sega Saturn & Donpachi game.
Thanks Professor...

So, Saturn Shmups. Recommendations?

Anyone selling any games at the moment?

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[The Coop]

So, Saturn Shmups. Recommendations?

Battle Garegga
Blast Wind
Darius II
Darius Gaiden
DonPachi
DoDonPachi
Galactic Attack
Galaxy Force II (3D Shmup)
Gradius Deluxe Pack (1+2)
Hyper Duel
Kyukyoku Tiger II Plus
Layer Section II
Metal Black
Panzer Dragoon (3D Shmup)
Panzer Dragoon II Zwei (3D Shmup)
Radiant Silvergun
Salamander Deluxe Pack (Salamander 1+2, LifeForce)
Sokyugurentai
Solar Eclipse (3D Shmup)
Strikers 1945
Thunder Force V
Thunder Force Gold Pack 1 (2+3)
Thunder Force Gold Pack 2 (4+AC)

[FIL]

Buy the dreamcast and download/burn all the games off billy internet.

Then, with the money you saved from not buying a single game, you can buy a saturn .

I tried that but just ended up buying Dreamcast games instead. I fail at piracy.

[unsane]

Don't ignore MAME, free access to a ton of classics!

[Shatterhand]

I'll confuse you even more.

If you are going to get one single system for shmupping, I think you should get a import-friendly PS2.

With the PS2, you have the biggest amount of modern home-ports of arcade shmups (Including Dodonpachi Dai-Jou-ou, which is a must).

You'll have Gradius V, which is one of the finest shmups ever.

You get some excellent retro re-releases, most in compilations.

You get the full catalog of the PS1 shmups, which include some awesome shmups like Zanac Neo and Gradius Gaiden.


I don't have a DC, so I can't compare it against a Saturn (Though Ikaruga is better than Radiant Silvergun IMO), but the Saturn gave me lots of fun moments with their shmups... just keep in mind that about 90% of the Saturn shmups (probably more) are emulated in Mame , and if you are going the Mame way, owning a Saturn may feel a bit redundant.

[spadgy]

I'll confuse you even more.

If you are going to get one single system for shmupping, I think you should get a import-friendly PS2.

With the PS2, you have the biggest amount of modern home-ports of arcade shmups (Including Dodonpachi Dai-Jou-ou, which is a must).

You'll have Gradius V, which is one of the finest shmups ever.

You get some excellent retro re-releases, most in compilations.

You get the full catalog of the PS1 shmups, which include some awesome shmups like Zanac Neo and Gradius Gaiden.


I don't have a DC, so I can't compare it against a Saturn (Though Ikaruga is better than Radiant Silvergun IMO), but the Saturn gave me lots of fun moments with their shmups... just keep in mind that about 90% of the Saturn shmups (probably more) are emulated in Mame , and if you are going the Mame way, owning a Saturn may feel a bit redundant.

Very good point. It might not seem as 'hardcore', but for less money in general you could easily assemble some of these:

Mushihimesama
Ibara
Dodonpachi DOJ
Espgaluda
Raiden 3
R-type Final
Gradius III + IV
Gradius V
Radirgy
Psyvariar Revision
Shikigami no Shiro
Shienryu Explosion
Gigawing Generations
Gunbird 2
Strikers 1945 I and II
Slipheed
XII Stag

The list goes on and on too, and you get so many modern classics from the likes of Cave...