*MAME/shmups controls Question*

[EvolTurdGun]

Hi all, new to Shmups.

I used to play the odd shooting game as a kid but unfortunately I didn't really have any standards back then. I didn't really play any classics so I thought I'd play them now (Ikaruga for GC has got me into shmups recently).

So I was going to download R-type from Wii VC but decided to try it out on MAME first. However, i'm a bit confused with the controls. When I press and hold button 1 (Ctrl) and button 2 (Alt) simultaneously, I have found that I can't move in all diagonal directions. This restricts movement when trying to evade enemies/bullets.

Is this how R-type (and other shmups which I have downloaded on MAME, such as Darius) is/are meant to control (is it same on Wii)? Or is it a problem with MAME? It's annoying with games like Darius because I like to hold down fire and bombs at same time but movement is then restricted.

I have a feeling its because too many buttons on the keyboard are being pressed at once but i'm not sure. Sorry if it's a silly Q, but little niggles (not knowing) like this really annoy me.

I will appreciate any replies/anwers. Thanks in advance.

[shoe-sama]

You should be able to do it if you left it on default arrow keys movement =P

[EvolTurdGun]

Thanks. The controls are on defaults. When I press Ctrl and Alt at same time I can move in all directions except NW. If I press LEFT* arrow and UP arrow while holding the other two buttons I either move left* or up, or don't move at all if I press them at exactly the same time. Is this normal? Its the same with other shooters on MAME aswell.

* Meant left, not right (it's very late lol).

[elvis]

Is this normal?

Short version:

Yes, this is normal for a keyboard, and is called "key ghosting". Get yourself a USB gamepad/joystick, console joystick with USB converter, or proper non-blocking input device like an Ultimarc iPac or GroovyGameGear KeyWiz to avoid it.

Long version:

Standard PS2 and USB keyboards have a limited number of wires connecting the keys to the controller circuit. This is done entirely as a cost-cutting measure. The theory is that you can wire the keys up on a matrix (ie: a grid) so that essentially the X and Y co-ordinate of the key is enough to determine the keypress (it doesn't really work this way, but this is a simplified example for the non-technical).

If you think about it, a standard 104 key keyboard would normally need 104 wires (plus a ground loop) to get signals from every single key back to the controller circuit. Using a matrix, you reduce the number of needed wires down to about a dozen. Particularly back when PCs were young, saving money in any way was a good thing. These days the tradition continues (and we see the likes of keyboards that cost single-digit dollars).

The downside is that you greatly limit the number of simultaneous keys that can be pressed to register input, usually to 3 inputs at a time. On a standard keyboard, this isn't really an issue. Typists are generally only going to be hitting 2 keys simultaneously at worst (SHIFT+somekey), and system operators maybe 3 (CNTRL+ALT+something, etc). Similarly, PC gamers only really use 2-3 keys on the keyboard at most (WASD for first person shooters, etc).

Emulator players generally hit this wall pretty quickly. Even "simple" games that require 4 inputs at the same time (button 1 + button 2 + up + left, as in your example). Worse again if you play a 2P game on one keyboard. This phenomenon is typically referred to as "key ghosting". It happens in any keyboard that uses a matrix. Many people mistakenly think that USB keyboards will get past this problem - they do not! Both USB and PS/2 keyboards suffer the same fate.

You can get around it in several ways. All of these have the same base solution: use an input device that doesn't suffer key ghosting. For example:

1) A USB gamepad: cheap option, can be had for a few bucks

2) A Console gamepad/joystick, with a USB converter: you can find Playstation->USB converters for a few bucks these days.

3) Purpose-built, interrupt driven microcontroller for PC keyboard emulation: these are what a lot of people use in MAME cabinets. the two most popular by far are:

KeyWiz by GroovyGameGear:
http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/inde ... x&cPath=76

iPac by Ultimarc:
http://www.ultimarc.com/ipac1.html

Both companies nowdays offer a wide range of PS/2 (as in IBM Personal System 2 interface - the one used on your PC's keyboard, not Playstation 2) as well as USB.

[antron]

Try a different keyboard. Even with a matrix, ghosting can be eliminated with ground polling. I fact I have never encountered a keyboard that couldn't detect any combination of keys, and I have played MAME on a LOT of standard office computers

[EvolTurdGun]

^^^ Thanks for taking the time to write that post. Answered all my questions and then some.

I'm going to buy buy a converter so I can use my console control pads.

So key ghosting won't be a problem on Wii virtual console games? I'm thinking of downloading SoldierBlade or Gate of thunder.

EDIT..........

Actually, i tried mapping the fire buttons to the mouse - it works great. For games that use 3 or less buttons (Darius, R-type etc.) it works really good. No key ghosting - my performance on Darius has improved aswell! I can fire the guns and drop bombs while moving in any dierection I want.

Also, mouse is a lot more comfortable for me personally. Just gotta make sure you don't move the mouse and click of screen.

[PooshhMao]

Get yourself a Logitech wireless rumblepad
They don't seem to be too popular, but I find them absolutely perfect for just about any type of game.

[PROMETHEUS]

Actually you shouldn't even need to try a different keyboard : just map your keys differently and you should find a mapping that works perfectly even with up to 5 buttons held. I always found a way around it with my keyboards myself. Continue playing with keyboards, they rock ! ;D

The mouse thing is cool too if you don't need too many buttons, so play with that anyway if you find it more comfortable than keyboard only.

[Mortificator]

Something you may want to try...

After starting R-Type, open the tab menu and go to Custom Buttons. Highlight the first button and press "1" on the keyboard. The number 1 in a red circle should appear next to the custom button, which means that button now has the same function as button 1.

Why would you want two button 1s? So you can set one to autofire and leave on normal for charging up your cannon, like in the R-Type console games.

[spadgy]

Or give up on the pain in the arse that is MAME.

I totally respect and understand using MAME and the like, but it's so much nicer and easier to just go for the real deal. Of course it's expensive...

[PROMETHEUS]

I totally respect and understand using MAME and the like, but it's so much nicer and easier to just go for the real deal. Of course it's expensive...

I'm curious : why nicer and easier ? What does a PCB have that MAME cannot offer, in cases where MAME perfectly emulates the game ? MAME has a lot that the PCBs or ports can't offer, and I just find it "nicer and easier" than the "real deal", although I totally respect people who would want to go for the later ^_^

As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather just wait years until the modern games get emulated than buy a port that will be bothersome to launch and use, and expensive. I'll just play what's already emulated meanwhile.

[elfhentaifan]

What does a PCB have that MAME cannot offer

a large penis.

PCB's can be really sexy by just looking at.
You wont have this fun with mame

[moozooh]

With a PCB, you can always impress your friends with the amount of cash you shelled out for it. That doesn't work for MAME.

[spadgy]

Believe me I hate the fact that PCBs etc are so expensive, and I'm not interested in impressing people. If I wanted to impress people I'd have a hobby that didn't involve PCBs and consoles!

I'm just the kind of guy who prefers vinyl and CDs than MP3s, and the same goes for games.

It might be irrational and inexplicable but I like the process of hunting them down, I like the excitement of getting one through the post, I like the joy of finding one in a shop, I like the tactile quality of owning a physical game, I like having to blow dust out of a NES or rig up a Jamma connecter as part of the playing, and personally I've had no luck with the MAME scene - perhaps as I'm not a techy. Mainly of course I like playing, but I like all those things too.

And I have a tiny penis to make up for...

[spadgy]

And one more thing - I just feel bad about supporting piracy and theft. I know that sounds lame, but that just my personal feeling - not a comment on the people who use emulation and stuff...

[Dave_K.]

I'm curious : why nicer and easier ? What does a PCB have that MAME cannot offer, in cases where MAME perfectly emulates the game ?

I've owned PCBs and arcade cabinets for many years, and continue to use Mame for the reasons you are probably alluding to (ease of recording, save states for practice, and whatnot). But I have never seen Mame emulate any of my PCBs exactly. Never. There are always slight differences in refresh rates and control response, enough to be noticeable to me. PCBs are simple plug and play, and authentic. So I stick to Mame only for practice/recording.

As for the PCB expense, when you're an adult who has worked for over 15 years, and know how to save money, its not a big deal to indulge in your hobbies.

[spadgy]

Exactly. I feel I explained above in my two posts next to one another why I find physical games 'nicer', but I left out 'easier'.

Plug and play = 'easier'

[EvolTurdGun]

Something you may want to try...

After starting R-Type, open the tab menu and go to Custom Buttons. Highlight the first button and press "1" on the keyboard. The number 1 in a red circle should appear next to the custom button, which means that button now has the same function as button 1.

Why would you want two button 1s? So you can set one to autofire and leave on normal for charging up your cannon, like in the R-Type console games.

Thanks, thats a great little trick I didn't know about.

MAME vs. REAL DEAL
I would definately prefer to play games on PCBs or play decent console ports but at the moment most the games I would like to play are either way to expensive or just very hard to find.

MAME will do for now. At least when I play originals they will be even better.

[PROMETHEUS]

But I have never seen Mame emulate any of my PCBs exactly. Never. There are always slight differences in refresh rates and control response, enough to be noticeable to me. PCBs are simple plug and play, and authentic. So I stick to Mame only for practice/recording.

Didn't know this. The only game I could compare PCB vs MAME is Dodonpachi, and I felt it was exactly the same when I tried on a PCB. Even if there is a small difference in some cases, I'm not sure it's always worth all the extra efforts and money but why not...

Plug and play = 'easier'

But if you compare it to "not-even-plug and play" ? ;] It may be easy enough but probably not easier.

[FIL]

Its not really just a case of effort and money though, piracy is always going to be cheaper and easier than buying things.

[PROMETHEUS]

Well, those games were never designed so that each player buys a PCB. You're supposed to make money if you buy a PCB, that's why they're so expensive. So I don't think it's a bad thing to download those games when you live in a country where arcades plainly disappeared and you have no access to the games whatsoever. Now when they have been ported... different story perhaps.

[Dave_K.]

But DDP has been ported, to PSX and Saturn consoles, so it is accessible. Granted it still doesn't replicate the feel of the PCB, just like Mame doesn't to me. Yeah its close enough for most people, and I don't really care if people download the romz, but why settle for second best if this is a game you invest a lot of time in and love so much? I could play a cheap copy fender strat guitar too, but why if I can afford the real deal? I guess its more a matter of personal taste/preference.

[PROMETHEUS]

I never knew I would play dodonpachi so much when I started. And if there is any difference between the MAME version and the PCB version, the original version doesn't have to be better, just more authentic, and I don't care as much about authenticity as I care about launching the game fast, using savestates, etc... Plus the PCB isn't so easy to find, I'd have to buy a TV and supergun, I don't think I can plug my keyboard on that..... way too bothersome.

[Dave_K.]

Yes, makes sense given your priorities (and probably finances). But don't you think it would be a better accomplishment to get your DDP scores on the real deal with arcade controls? I mean, its not like you can walk into Hey Arcade with a PC Keyboard and show off your skills. No dissing your awesome accomplishments, just trying to point out other motivations (besides the penis jokes) to buying PCBs.

[elvis]

And one more thing - I just feel bad about supporting piracy and theft.

Theft? From who? Who exactly are you stealing from by not paying for a fourth of fifth hand ROM?

I completely support the purchase of new or even second or even third hand arcade PCBs for the good of the arcade games industry. But after 10 years or more, opportunistic collectors not interested in the continuing success of modern arcade game manufacturers are NOT supporting the industry, and not buying games from them can hardly be considered theft by any sensible person.

Yes, yes, the law says different. That seems to be where these conversations always end. But common sense and the law aren't always the same thing.

I'm all for supporting people who make arcade games DIRECTLY. But the "MAME is theft" idea is flawed. I play MAME and love it. I also buy console ports and collection packs of arcade games whenever and where ever possible, knowing that at least some of that money is going to get back to the legal license holder. Conversely, paying a sack of coin for some "collectible" board and not seeing a cent going back to the original copyright holder doesn't interest me in the slightest. It's a false economy, regardless of what the law says.

But I have never seen Mame emulate any of my PCBs exactly. Never. There are always slight differences in refresh rates and control response, enough to be noticeable to me.

This style of post comes around on these boards every few months, and every few months I give the same response:

If you are playing MAME on a high res PC monitor, scaled up with a different refresh and buffering delay to the original hardware, it is not MAME that's at fault. It is your setup that's wrong.

Play MAME instead through the correct type of monitor, through a MAME build that is designed for writing directly to video card frame buffers (ie: AdvanceMAME via SVGALib - NOT through Windows or Linux/XWindows), and use lag-free, kernel-driven serial inputs (ie: USB on Linux), then you will not see any difference between MAME and the original arcade hardware (assuming the driver is correct - many of which are).

For hardware like CPS1/CPS2 and many of the older M68K/Z80 based MAME games, I can set these in such a way that even the most vocal of emulator skeptics cannot tell the difference between it and the original hardware. I've challenged some pretty huge skeptics in my home town, and they've gone home with a different opinion on what emulation can achieve given the right hardware.

If you're going to play MAME on your PC or Mac through a bloated operating system with a dozen layers of abstraction between your software and hardware, then of course you're going to see a difference. But again, that's not the fault of the emulator. It's the fault of the layers between it and the hardware.

And before anyone has a cry, I'm not anti PCB. I love the original arcade hardware, and collect where I can for my own personal nerdy reasons. But I also play and thoroughly enjoy emulation, and unlike most PCB collectors don't consider it the "poor cousin" of PCB collecting.

[Necronom]

@spadgy
"It might be irrational and inexplicable but I like the process of hunting them down, I like the excitement of getting one through the post, I like the joy of finding one in a shop, I like the tactile quality of owning a physical game, I like having to blow dust out of a NES or rig up a Jamma connecter as part of the playing..."

I don't think it's irrational and inexplicable...it just has nothing to do with the games itself.

"And one more thing - I just feel bad about supporting piracy and theft."

If you really think using Mame means supporting piracy then you clearly don't have a clue what Mame or Emulation in general is all about - preservation and documentation of old (and in many cases fragile hardware) that was originally NEVER built to last longer than a couple of years. I seriously don't want to insult you but it really makes me wonder how serious the level of "brainwashed" consumers is at the moment who believe that playing R-Type on Mame (the Arcade version is NOT available on VC or XBLA) is piracy or theft. Especially the "theft" part is a sick joke in itself.
Don't get me wrong I would love to own the original PCB (+cab) of ceratin games but owning PCBs means also being ready (having the know-how or the money) to fix them in case they break down. Doesn't exactly sound like the definition of plug and play to me...
Btw, how much of your money do you think goes to IREM when you buy an original R-Type PCB from some collector or arcade owner? ZERO

[PROMETHEUS]

But don't you think it would be a better accomplishment to get your DDP scores on the real deal with arcade controls? I mean, its not like you can walk into Hey Arcade with a PC Keyboard and show off your skills.

No, Why ? I would if I knew my MAME version of Dodonpachi was easier for some reason, but as far as I know it isn't. I also like continuing to play with my keyboard because it will be a little original if I manage a 2-ALL with a keyboard. If I'm going to play at HEY, maybe I will do a little worse... but why would that matter ? And anyway, I'm quite sure that given a little time to learn how to use play with a joystick, I could do the same scores on an arcade machine, because it's just the same.

[antron]

I find it hard to argue that using MAME ROMs you don´t own is not piracy without feeling the same way about console games that are no longer available retail.

Copyright is not selling-rights. It is ´Copy´right. You can´t copy it and make mass distributions.

It´s also prohibited by the MAME license.

By the way, I believe modern technology has doomed most copyrights and End User Agreements. There is only copy protection now, and some people´s desire to have the real thing (Harry Potter, RSG, PCBs, etc..) And when copy protection fails the only deterrent is easy accessibility and a low price. Seems like we win.

[Necronom]

I find it hard to argue that using MAME ROMs you don´t own is not piracy without feeling the same way about console games that are no longer available retail.

Copyright is not selling-rights. It is ´Copy´right. You can´t copy it and make mass distributions.

It´s also prohibited by the MAME license.

By the way, I believe modern technology has doomed most copyrights and End User Agreements. There is only copy protection now, and some people´s desire to have the real thing (Harry Potter, RSG, PCBs, etc..) And when copy protection fails the only deterrent is easy accessibility and a low price. Seems like we win.

It's not so much a question whether it's piracy or not but much more about the fact that the situation is simply NOT black and white as many people think it is. As far as I know you can't buy an old PCB (let's say R-Type or Guwange) directly from the creators (IREM and Cave) themselves, which means that ALL the money goes to people who are simply trading with this stuff and had nothing to do with the creation of those games. Result: The copyright holders and authors are NOT getting paid. By emulating those two games you are NOT taking away anything = no theft at all.
I would even argue that without Mame there would be far less interest in games by Cave or even Retro(arcade)gaming in general because many people (especially younger generations) would simply be not aware of it.
For the industry as a whole Mame has more benefits than downsides and for the gamers interested in arcade games it's simply the best piece of software that ever hit the web.
Not to mention that a lot of academic research about gamedesign would simply be not possible without Mame and other emulators.
If this is really 'piracy' I'm glad to support it

[PROMETHEUS]

I find it hard to argue that using MAME ROMs you don´t own is not piracy without feeling the same way about console games that are no longer available retail.

Copyright is not selling-rights. It is ´Copy´right. You can´t copy it and make mass distributions.

It´s also prohibited by the MAME license.

The point is, call it whatever you want, it's not damaging the industry in any way. Actually it's quite the opposite : I discovered shmups thanks to MAME and then got people to discover them, might purchase ports in the future or put coins in arcades... I'm sure many people discovered shmups partly thanks to MAME like me ^_^

Edit : well, seems necronom said the same as I typed ^^