Research Q #1 : whats your limit of difficulty?

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:26 pm

This will be the first of a few questions i'll be asking regarding various aspects of shooters.

Which danmaku shooters do you feel are the limits of difficulty? I mean the ones that are hard, but still fun to play?

which ones do you feel step over the line and go into "no longer fun" territory?

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:34 pm

pixelcorps wrote:Which danmaku shooters do you feel are the limits of difficulty? I mean the ones that are hard, but still fun to play?

Dodonpachi Daioujou, Ketsui, Guwange, Mushihimesama

which ones do you feel step over the line and go into "no longer fun" territory?

Ibara, Pink Sweets, Espgaluda II

it290 · Post by **it290** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:58 pm

For me it's not necessarily about difficulty, but about compulsion. DOJ, for example, is extremely difficult, and generally I don't feel the urge to keep playing because I know I'll never master chaining to the extent required to score decently. OTOH, Ibara, although also a bastard-ass difficult game, keeps me playing because I'm always -that- close to the next extend. Raiden 2 (not danmaku, I know) would be another example of a hard game that keeps me playing.

The DOJ example brings up another point: I don't mind games that are just hard to survive in - and DOJ certainly is that. What I mind is games that require uber precision and knowledge of a million stupid tricks in order to score decently.

sven666 · Post by **sven666** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:52 pm

futari ultra is too hard for me. (tho i try to practice it sometimes)

its the only one i can think of really.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:56 pm

it290 wrote:What I mind is games that require uber precision and knowledge of a million stupid tricks in order to score decently.

Excellent point. It may be easier to memorize than to react, but it sucks the fun out of the playing process. Games that raise the difficulty qualitatively by various low tactics and simply being unfair to the player just dig themselves a hole beneath the gameplay.

pixelcorps wrote:Which danmaku shooters do you feel are the limits of difficulty? I mean the ones that are hard, but still fun to play?

Stuff like Batsugun, DDP, Mushihime-sama Original & Arrange modes, ESP Ra.De., Ikaruga, Shoot the Bullet. I'm not a very good player, so the limit of difficulty is a bit low for me. :)

pixelcorps wrote:which ones do you feel step over the line and go into "no longer fun" territory?

Most Psikyo games I've played, Battle Garegga (invisible bullets = fail), Radiant Silvergun (still way too hard for me to enjoy it). I'm sure I'd name more, but I just don't like to play games that I know are over my head.

Lynx Winters · Post by **Lynx Winters** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:18 pm

it290 wrote:For me it's not necessarily about difficulty, but about compulsion. DOJ, for example, is extremely difficult, and generally I don't feel the urge to keep playing because I know I'll never master chaining to the extent required to score decently.

This is how I feel, too. DOJ seems to me like a game that's for the hardest of the hardcore. It's very well-made, and I've never thought the game was unfair in any way, but I'm someone who can't get through stage 1 on a single credit most of the time, let alone master the chaining and such. I know DOJ isn't exactly meant for players like me (i.e. unskilled ones), though, so my view is sort of skewed. However, I wouldn't put DOJ into "this is not fun" territory, just "this isn't as much fun right now."

As far as hard-but-still-fun games go, I look to Perfect Cherry Blossom. I'm not playing to score, I'm just seeing how far I can make it before I screw up and die. PCB doesn't try to cram its scoring system down my throat or make me feel like I'm being penalized for not scoring as well as I could. I can focus on figuring out the best ways to get through the spell cards instead of being distracted by chaining and medals and alternating shot types and stuff.

As far as "fuck this game" goes, I'd probably say Garegga. Blasphemy, yeah yeah. Between bullets I can't see killing me in wide open spaces, some weird fucking hitboxes, and the whole rank management thing I just don't have fun with it. I gave it a fair shot, but ultimately every time I'd play it I just felt like switching to another game.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:52 pm

Anything with slow bullets = zzzzzzz

then i die lol

It's like playing an rpg with a shitload of text.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:22 am

The only time I feel that a game is too hard is when it is too imprecise or badly made for it's difficulty.

kengou · Post by **kengou** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:11 am

Most psikyo games after stage 3 or so.

zero.otaku · Post by **zero.otaku** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:39 am

The DOJ example brings up another point: I don't mind games that are just hard to survive in - and DOJ certainly is that. What I mind is games that require uber precision and knowledge of a million stupid tricks in order to score decently.

I agree with this times one thousand.

Andi · Post by **Andi** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:54 am

kengou wrote:Most psikyo games after stage 3 or so.

Agreed. Although, with Psikyo, it isn't an issue of "too hard", it's an issue of pacing. For instance, Strikers 1945 is too easy up to level 4 and then it ramps up the difficulty very suddenly. Also, since the first 4 levels are randomized it's really hard to be consistent.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:05 am

No matter how challenging a game is, as long as it manages to convince me that every death I die was the result of an avoidable mistake on my part, as opposed to some blind-side smackdown that I have zero chance to survive unless I know the precise location, to the pixel, on which I have to be at that moment, I'm likely to be motivated to keep playing it, even if only "for survival." As long as a game makes me aware of all the things that are going on and what I can do to take advantage of them, I'm willing to take it on - when I have no freaking idea what just hit me or why the game suddenly went ape feces on me, I begin to want to play something else.

Krooze L-Roy · Post by **Krooze L-Roy** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:48 am

Pretty much, if a game can hook me, I'll have fun with it regardless of difficulty. I'll just be having fun with the first four or so levels rather than the whole thing.

viniciusvbf · Post by **viniciusvbf** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:23 am

It's weird, when i play DOJ, i always die laughing, the game is fucking hard, but still lot of fun.

But Garegga just crosses the line for me. Its just too hard. And i'm not a fan of suiciding.

Erinu · Post by **Erinu** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:32 am

Ibara, because the game is poorly made, and the port is even worse.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:03 am

Ibara, because the game is poorly made

Are you kidding?

captain ahar · Post by **captain ahar** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:25 am

viniciusvbf wrote:But Garegga just crosses the line for me. Its just too hard. And i'm not a fan of suiciding.

when i am game for a laugh, i boot up a save state of garegga at max rank.

1up · Post by **1up** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:40 am

Battle Garegga and Strikers series (after stage 4) crosses the line for me. In Garegga I feel its cheap to die because its hard to make out if youre going to hit debris, powerup or a bullet

Strikers series is just unfair with those super fast bullets. For me its pure luck if I dodge them.

Games that are still fun while being hard is Seibu Keihatsus Raiden series. Like BulletMagnet said, the game makes me feel that my death could have been avoided and I usually die while picking up medals.

Erinu · Post by **Erinu** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:48 am

Zebra Airforce wrote:
Ibara, because the game is poorly made
Are you kidding?

No. I'm surprised the ridiculously tiny and impossible-to-see-on-composite bullets even made it through testing. Did they even test the Taito port? The game looks seriously ugly on yoko.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:05 am

Dragon Blaze to 2-1 and Dai-Ou-Jou up until the final few bosses.

Not fun: Later Psikyo loops (GB2, DB). Some of the bosses are kind of fun, it's just the really fast return bullets.

Kaiser · Post by **Kaiser** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:11 am

The limit of my skill is DDP3 and extremely fast bullets or too much bullets in psikyo or pre-psikyo games

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:23 am

Erinu wrote:No. I'm surprised the ridiculously tiny and impossible-to-see-on-composite bullets even made it through testing. Did they even test the Taito port? The game looks seriously ugly on yoko.

It's one thing to complain about the low quality of the port, but to say the game is badly designed is pretty ridiculous. Each Raizing game forces you sift through the graphical noise in order to spot bullets, and I think it makes the games quite charming. It also looks fucking cool.

Kaiser · Post by **Kaiser** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:27 am

Zebra Airforce wrote:
Erinu wrote:No. I'm surprised the ridiculously tiny and impossible-to-see-on-composite bullets even made it through testing. Did they even test the Taito port? The game looks seriously ugly on yoko.
It's one thing to complain about the low quality of the port, but to say the game is badly designed is pretty ridiculous. Each Raizing game forces you sift through the graphical noise in order to spot bullets, and I think it makes the games quite charming. It also looks fucking cool.

Batrider's bullets were best, easy to notice

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:16 am

Yeah, but there are still a whole shitload of distractions onscreen, including areas where your view is purposefully obstructed. It's all part of the game's challenge, is what I'm saying.

kengou · Post by **kengou** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:14 am

Zebra Airforce wrote:Yeah, but there are still a whole shitload of distractions onscreen, including areas where your view is purposefully obstructed. It's all part of the game's challenge, is what I'm saying.

It's also what makes the game pretty unfair at times. I like most Raizing games, they're fun, but I don't really play them that seriously.

battlegorge · Post by **battlegorge** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:02 am

My limit of difficulty are Donpachi,Dodonpachi and Battle Garegga.
I didnt 1CC them yet but i was close and think i can complete them.

Dangun Feveron is hard but its still much fun always loosing in stage 3.

Not fun anymore from stage 2 or 3 on are Shikigami 3 and Dimahoo because for me they are too difficult!

themachinist · Post by **themachinist** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:17 pm

Lvl 3 and on. If I practice, Lvl 4 and on.

DEL · Post by **DEL** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:37 pm

Rob wrote;

Dragon Blaze to 2-1

^Stage 2-1 on Dragon Blaze is the most evil 2-1 stage I have ever seen.

elfhentaifan · Post by **elfhentaifan** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:49 pm

cho ren sha - 3rd stage.
harder than hibachi, harder than my penis

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:10 pm

it's dumb and easy like viper phase stage 3 or ddp stage 3

You just have to learn it lol

shmups.system11.org

Research Q #1 : whats your limit of difficulty?

Research Q #1 : whats your limit of difficulty?

Re: Research Q #1 : whats your limit of difficulty?

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