Darius, Rule 34'd

[Dale]

Alright thanks for clearing that up.

[StoofooEsq]

Trolling has to do with messing/irritating people on the internet.

Yeah, but you need Opinion Lv1 as a prerequisite to the Trolling skill. It's totally worth the XP investment, though.

[lgb]

Trolling has to do with messing/irritating people on the internet.

Yeah, but you need Opinion Lv1 as a prerequisite to the Trolling skill. It's totally worth the XP investment, though.

The Debate skill is better than Trolling. Mainly because you're usually a hero type of person, but it also applies when you can choose between good and evil, and you want to be the goody two shoes guy. Hey, some people want to be a Kim Kap Whan. Meh.

[Twiddle]

when you have enough troll mana the debate skill is useless and deprecated and points are better spent in Rapid Posting

[StoofooEsq]

At that point you'll be able to rage both Kim KaphwhAAAAAAAAH and BAAAAAWWWWWWhamut classes in one well-aimed post.

[BIL]

"But on the other hand I believe that 3-D games will never reach the level of intensity(not difficulty) of a manic-shmup."

I can agree here; shmups are too simplistic, so really the only thing going for them is their absurd difficulty which would understandably only attract a somewhat small gaming community.

You come across as having a pretty shallow appreciation of shooters with that answer, particularly where scoring systems and scoring competition are concerned. A shooter doesn't have to be soul-crushingly difficult to be worth playing, or to justify its existence next to mainstream gaming; or to bring innovation to the genre. By that logic I should dump my copies of Shikigami no Shiro 2 and Under Defeat, due to my finding Shinobi's Super Mode far more frustrating.

A more logical reason for a full-3D game not replicating a 2D manic's intensity would seem to be the simple problem of full 3D space complicating things too greatly at this point (regarding that specific "a pixel off and you die" experience). Not that I endorse everything in it 100%, but as I said in that "anti-shmup hogwash" thread, I tend to doubt the reliability of opinions which characterise shooters as inherently simplistic compared to other genres.

[Zebra Airforce]

Don't you guys know that being better at RE4 makes the game alot harder?

[MathU]

Totally, dude. Love knifing those Iron Maidens.

[Mega Mudkip]

"But on the other hand I believe that 3-D games will never reach the level of intensity(not difficulty) of a manic-shmup."

I can agree here; shmups are too simplistic, so really the only thing going for them is their absurd difficulty which would understandably only attract a somewhat small gaming community.

You come across as having a pretty shallow appreciation of shooters with that answer, particularly where scoring systems and scoring competition are concerned. A shooter doesn't have to be soul-crushingly difficult to be worth playing, or to justify its existence next to mainstream gaming; or to bring innovation to the genre. By that logic I should dump my copies of Shikigami no Shiro 2 and Under Defeat, due to my finding Shinobi's Super Mode far more frustrating.

A more logical reason for a full-3D game not replicating a 2D manic's intensity would seem to be the simple problem of full 3D space complicating things too greatly at this point (regarding that specific "a pixel off and you die" experience). Not that I endorse everything in it 100%, but as I said in that "anti-shmup hogwash" thread, I tend to doubt the reliability of opinions which characterise shooters as inherently simplistic compared to other genres.

Oh lord, here we go again.

"A shooter doesn't have to be soul-crushingly difficult to be worth playing"
The majority of arcade shmups really wouldn't be as exciting or intense if they made them easier. This doesn't apply to every shmup in existence but it applies to the general arcade shmup since most of them are usually vertical shooters that rely more on throwing enemies and crazy bullet patterns than elaborate stage designs at the player. The less action on the screen, the excitement and intensity drops significantly.

"or to justify its existence next to mainstream gaming;"
Justify its existence? I--
Whatever. I'm not touching that one.

"or to bring innovation to the genre."
Which is exactly why I've said the difficulty of shmups sorta needs to be hard. Simplicity isn't a bad thing; I prefer it actually.

"By that logic I should dump my copies of Shikigami no Shiro 2 and Under Defeat, due to my finding Shinobi's Super Mode far more frustrating."
Yet those shmups still aren't easy, right? (I haven't played those three, so I wouldn't know.) Perhaps I should have replaced "absurd difficulty" with "hard" to have avoided this misunderstanding. Because shmups are basic, if they don't pack some kind of challenge then they generally aren't as fun to play.

"A more logical reason for a full-3D game not replicating a 2D manic's intensity would seem to be the simple problem of full 3D space complicating things too greatly at this point (regarding that specific "a pixel off and you die" experience)."
This honestly doesn't seem relevant.

"Not that I endorse everything in it 100%, but as I said in that "anti-shmup hogwash" thread, I tend to doubt the reliability of opinions which characterise shooters as inherently simplistic compared to other genres."
This mechanics of a shmup are generally simplistic; you have a ship that can fly in two dimensions, you shoot/dodge preset enemies and dodge bullets, there's a score system, you get bombs, pick up power-ups...and that would be a shmup's mechanics. However, managing to master the system is completely different story.
And again, there is nothing wrong with a genre being simple; sometimes simplicity can also be the most ingenious.

[PFG 9000]

What the fuck does any of this have to do with Darius porn?

[MathU]

Well, Darius porn is lame, so the thread got hijacked for a more interesting subject.

[Rob]

a more interesting subject.

false

[BIL]

Oh lord, here we go again.

"A shooter doesn't have to be soul-crushingly difficult to be worth playing"
The majority of arcade shmups really wouldn't be as exciting or intense if they made them easier. This doesn't apply to every shmup in existence but it applies to the general arcade shmup since most of them are usually vertical shooters that rely more on throwing enemies and crazy bullet patterns than elaborate stage designs at the player. The less action on the screen, the excitement and intensity drops significantly.

I wouldn't disagree that this genre's basic components tend to be quite basic, on paper. It's the peformance a good shooter proceeds to demand of a player using those basic components that I would never agree is "simple." It seems shallow to call a genre whose demands can easily rival those of cutting-edge 3D action games simplistic, only because its tools (bullet patterns, 2D movement, etc) are less elaborate.

Then again, in gaming terms, "simple" to me means something that can be picked up and mastered with reasonably little effort. I see now, that's not what you meant with that comment. So you might want to skip to the bottom of this post as this is just nitpicking otherwise. (;

"or to justify its existence next to mainstream gaming;"
Justify its existence? I--
Whatever. I'm not touching that one.

That's just to address the notion that a relatively easy shooter like Gradius V would have to bludgeon other games into submission with Gradius III-like difficulty, or else become totally worthless to gamers where entertainment is concerned. Referring to "shmups are too simplistic, so really the only thing going for them is their absurd difficulty."

"or to bring innovation to the genre."
Which is exactly why I've said the difficulty of shmups sorta needs to be hard. Simplicity isn't a bad thing; I prefer it actually.

Psyvariar 2 is often regarded as one of the milder shooters around yet practically occupies its own subgenre. Again, shooters don't require searing arcade cruelty to be worth investing time and effort in, even if high-level play brings on a greater challenge. Which brings me to...

"By that logic I should dump my copies of Shikigami no Shiro 2 and Under Defeat, due to my finding Shinobi's Super Mode far more frustrating."

Yet those shmups still aren't easy, right? (I haven't played those three, so I wouldn't know.) Perhaps I should have replaced "absurd difficulty" with "hard" to have avoided this misunderstanding. Because shmups are basic, if they don't pack some kind of challenge then they generally aren't as fun to play.

UD and SNS2 (US title: The Castle of Shikigami 2) are not what most experienced shooter fans would call absurdly difficult. If you're only interested in surviving, both are relatively easy shooters. They do become challenging when played for score, but it's a far more personal challenge which comes from pushing yourself as far as you can go, and always having the option of backing off if you want to. Rather than something like Gradius III ARC, which couldn't care less about your personal development and just wants to kill you, and by default offers you only the accomplishment of staving it off until you finally kill it. UD and Shiki 2 are both originally coin-ops just like GIII, btw.

"A more logical reason for a full-3D game not replicating a 2D manic's intensity would seem to be the simple problem of full 3D space complicating things too greatly at this point (regarding that specific "a pixel off and you die" experience)."
This honestly doesn't seem relevant.

It's a simple statement. 2D games' movement limitation is actually an advantage, where the "bullet hell" experience is concerned. This was in response to Dale's comment on 3D games not meeting the intensity of 2D manic shooters. Now that I read what he said again, I may have missed a point about modern 3D games generally not aiming to provide such intensity, regardless of whether it could be pulled off in full 3D or not.

Not saying that games like DMC and Ninja Gaiden aren't extremely precise, by the way. I just can't visualise translating something like Mushihimesama into full 3D, personally.

"Not that I endorse everything in it 100%, but as I said in that "anti-shmup hogwash" thread, I tend to doubt the reliability of opinions which characterise shooters as inherently simplistic compared to other genres."

This mechanics of a shmup are generally simplistic; you have a ship that can fly in two dimensions, you shoot/dodge preset enemies and dodge bullets, there's a score system, you get bombs, pick up power-ups...and that would be a shmup's mechanics. However, managing to master the system is completely different story.

And again, there is nothing wrong with a genre being simple; sometimes simplicity can also be the most ingenious.

Well, that's roughly how I feel too (way up there at my first point in this post). Again, I wouldn't disagree that this genre's collective basic tools tend to be simple ones. I just don't like it when the experience offered by a better shooter is written off as being trite or shallow as a whole, particularly when accompanied by the old "easy to credit feed" line of thought (latest example being IGN's Raiden III PS2 review). I see now you're not saying that at all, of course.

edit:

What the fuck does any of this have to do with Darius porn?

Sorry, I feel guilty just steering it further away from Titanic Lance hentai with my two cents. =/

[FIL]

As a general rule, I thought zone M was to be avoided? now i'm confused.

[Erinu]

i like ragnarok online

Dear lord, have some decency.

[shoe-sama]

Those goddamn trolls are fucking hard to kill they have too much hp and def.

[Twiddle]

i like ragnarok online

Dear lord, have some decency.

I like games consisting of number pornography, like N1 games and Ragnarok Online private servers with more ridiculous play mechanics than the official ones

also ur gay

[Erinu]

i like ragnarok online

Dear lord, have some decency.

I like games consisting of number pornography, like N1 games and Ragnarok Online private servers with more ridiculous play mechanics than the official ones

also ur gay

I love Nippon Ichi titles, but at least I know my game saves aren't going anywhere. That's the problem with RO. Most of the time the private servers you're playing on end up dying, and as such all your items, characters, and time has vanished into nothing.

[Twiddle]

play private servers where it takes hours instead of 3 years to get a character with all the possible cards/statpoints/etc

[Mega Mudkip]

Oh lord, here we go again.

"A shooter doesn't have to be soul-crushingly difficult to be worth playing"
The majority of arcade shmups really wouldn't be as exciting or intense if they made them easier. This doesn't apply to every shmup in existence but it applies to the general arcade shmup since most of them are usually vertical shooters that rely more on throwing enemies and crazy bullet patterns than elaborate stage designs at the player. The less action on the screen, the excitement and intensity drops significantly.

I wouldn't disagree that this genre's basic components tend to be quite basic, on paper. It's the peformance a good shooter proceeds to demand of a player using those basic components that I would never agree is "simple." It seems shallow to call a genre whose demands can easily rival those of cutting-edge 3D action games simplistic, only because its tools (bullet patterns, 2D movement, etc) are less elaborate.

Then again, in gaming terms, "simple" to me means something that can be picked up and mastered with reasonably little effort. I see now, that's not what you meant with that comment. So you might want to skip to the bottom of this post as this is just nitpicking otherwise. (;

"or to justify its existence next to mainstream gaming;"
Justify its existence? I--
Whatever. I'm not touching that one.

That's just to address the notion that a relatively easy shooter like Gradius V would have to bludgeon other games into submission with Gradius III-like difficulty, or else become totally worthless to gamers where entertainment is concerned. Referring to "shmups are too simplistic, so really the only thing going for them is their absurd difficulty."

"or to bring innovation to the genre."
Which is exactly why I've said the difficulty of shmups sorta needs to be hard. Simplicity isn't a bad thing; I prefer it actually.

Psyvariar 2 is often regarded as one of the milder shooters around yet practically occupies its own subgenre. Again, shooters don't require searing arcade cruelty to be worth investing time and effort in, even if high-level play brings on a greater challenge. Which brings me to...

"By that logic I should dump my copies of Shikigami no Shiro 2 and Under Defeat, due to my finding Shinobi's Super Mode far more frustrating."

Yet those shmups still aren't easy, right? (I haven't played those three, so I wouldn't know.) Perhaps I should have replaced "absurd difficulty" with "hard" to have avoided this misunderstanding. Because shmups are basic, if they don't pack some kind of challenge then they generally aren't as fun to play.

UD and SNS2 (US title: The Castle of Shikigami 2) are not what most experienced shooter fans would call absurdly difficult. If you're only interested in surviving, both are relatively easy shooters. They do become challenging when played for score, but it's a far more personal challenge which comes from pushing yourself as far as you can go, and always having the option of backing off if you want to. Rather than something like Gradius III ARC, which couldn't care less about your personal development and just wants to kill you, and by default offers you only the accomplishment of staving it off until you finally kill it. UD and Shiki 2 are both originally coin-ops just like GIII, btw.

"A more logical reason for a full-3D game not replicating a 2D manic's intensity would seem to be the simple problem of full 3D space complicating things too greatly at this point (regarding that specific "a pixel off and you die" experience)."
This honestly doesn't seem relevant.

It's a simple statement. 2D games' movement limitation is actually an advantage, where the "bullet hell" experience is concerned. This was in response to Dale's comment on 3D games not meeting the intensity of 2D manic shooters. Now that I read what he said again, I may have missed a point about modern 3D games generally not aiming to provide such intensity, regardless of whether it could be pulled off in full 3D or not.

Not saying that games like DMC and Ninja Gaiden aren't extremely precise, by the way. I just can't visualise translating something like Mushihimesama into full 3D, personally.

"Not that I endorse everything in it 100%, but as I said in that "anti-shmup hogwash" thread, I tend to doubt the reliability of opinions which characterise shooters as inherently simplistic compared to other genres."

This mechanics of a shmup are generally simplistic; you have a ship that can fly in two dimensions, you shoot/dodge preset enemies and dodge bullets, there's a score system, you get bombs, pick up power-ups...and that would be a shmup's mechanics. However, managing to master the system is completely different story.

And again, there is nothing wrong with a genre being simple; sometimes simplicity can also be the most ingenious.

Well, that's roughly how I feel too (way up there at my first point in this post). Again, I wouldn't disagree that this genre's collective basic tools tend to be simple ones. I just don't like it when the experience offered by a better shooter is written off as being trite or shallow as a whole, particularly when accompanied by the old "easy to credit feed" line of thought (latest example being IGN's Raiden III PS2 review). I see now you're not saying that at all, of course.

edit:

What the fuck does any of this have to do with Darius porn?

Sorry, I feel guilty just steering it further away from Titanic Lance hentai with my two cents. =/

"Then again, in gaming terms, "simple" to me means something that can be picked up and mastered with reasonably little effort."
Hurray we're on the same page =D

"So you might want to skip to the bottom of this post as this is just nitpicking otherwise. (;"
Oh thank god. But since you took the time to type it, the least I can do is read it anyway. (I'll most likely highlight a few areas that standout from the rest of the post.)

"UD and SNS2 (US title: The Castle of Shikigami 2) are not what most experienced shooter fans would call absurdly difficult. If you're only interested in surviving, both are relatively easy shooters."
Well, yeah. Not every shmup is going to meet the qualifications of "really, fucking hard." That's why I regret using the word "absurd" previously because I didn't put two and two together; I didn't realize what I meant would become misconstrued. What I aim to get it, is that as a general rule, because of the basic mechanics of a shmup, it needs to pack at least some punch. A lot of 3D games can get away with being easy because of the complex gameplay (LoZ: Windwaker for example.) If a shmup were as easy as Windwaker, I doubt it will call the attention of many shmup fanatics.
And even if Gradius V is considered "relatively easy" as far as shmups go, it still deserves the status of being hard as far as the standards of gaming go.

"I just can't visualise translating something like Mushihimesama into full 3D, personally."
Well, yeah. I really can't either. I don't recall every saying anything along the lines of that which is why it didn't seem pertinent. Point it out if I did. =/
But if this was also somehow a response to Dale, I'm a bit curious as to how it relates to my contention.

"Well, that's roughly how I feel too (way up there at my first point in this post). Again, I wouldn't disagree that this genre's collective basic tools tend to be simple ones. I just don't like it when the experience offered by a better shooter is written off as being trite or shallow as a whole, particularly when accompanied by the old "easy to credit feed" line of thought (latest example being IGN's Raiden III PS2 review)."
If IGN said that then they're gay D=
Reviewers and mainstream gamers said RE4 was hard even though you had that unlimited retry option, and ironically some people here used the retry thing as a reason for the game being easy, which is congruent to a reviewer using credit feeding as a reason for a shmup being easy.
(Whether someone found RE4 to be easy or hard is still certainly debatable. I just don't think using the retry option as a reason for it being easy is really valid.)
And I do think RE4 and Raiden 3 were hard (Raiden 3 was definitely not as difficult as previous shmups released for the PS2), but I don't think "credit feeding" makes it any easier. I'm still gonna get blown up a billion times regardless. The only difference is that I'll be blessed with witnessing the ending--my skills at the game will still suck.

"I see now you're not saying that at all, of course."
yay

a more interesting subject.

false

quoted for irrefutable truth.

[Herr Schatten]

Mega Mudkip, your idiosyncratic way of quoting is highly irritating. Could you please learn to do it the way almost everyone else here does it?

[Erinu]

Uh.. too long, didn't read.

[Mega Mudkip]

Mega Mudkip, your idiosyncratic way of quoting is highly irritating. Could you please learn to do it the way almost everyone else here does it?

"Mega Mudkip, your idiosyncratic way of quoting is highly irritating. Could you please learn to do it the way almost everyone else here does it?"
"Mega Mudkip, your idiosyncratic way of quoting is highly irritating. Could you please learn to do it the way almost everyone else here does it?"
"Mega Mudkip, your idiosyncratic way of quoting is highly irritating. Could you please learn to do it the way almost everyone else here does it?"
"Mega Mudkip, your idiosyncratic way of quoting is highly irritating. Could you please learn to do it the way almost everyone else here does it?"
"Mega Mudkip, your idiosyncratic way of quoting is highly irritating. Could you please learn to do it the way almost everyone else here does it?"
"Mega Mudkip, your idiosyncratic way of quoting is highly irritating. Could you please learn to do it the way almost everyone else here does it?"

am i doing it rite?

Uh.. too long, didn't read.

tl;dr*

[Nuke]

?????

[Lili-Xiang]

Whoah, I never saw that part. Sorry lady. (for shooting at you while your love making)

That's a good one

[Herr Schatten]

am i doing it rite?

No.

[Mega Mudkip]

am i doing it rite?

No.

"No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No."

>_>

[Nuke]

am i doing it rite?

No.

"No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No."

>_>

THERE'S NO LIMIT!

[Mega Mudkip]

No.

"No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No." "No."

>_>

THERE'S NO LIMIT!

YOU CAN GET RID OF IT IF YOU DIVIDE BY ZE-

[Shatterhand]

Allright, this isn't going anywhere.