What Makes A Great Shmup, well...Great?

doodude · Post by **doodude** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:05 pm

Im still a newbie to shmups & therefore have limited understanding as to what makes a great shmup.

Ive seen Robs countdown & thought some of the slammed games looked ok. What are you looking for in a great shmup?
Is a vertical or horizontal favored most?

Also, I only have an SNES with a SFC adapter, an N64 & a PDA to play on. Ive tried to locate the best/top 10 or so games for those platforms but cant find anything specific.
Is there a list for those platforms that Im just not finding?
Does anybody have a top 10 in any of those platforms?

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:37 pm

My Super Famicom/SNES Top 10:

10. Area 88
9. Spriggan Powered
8. Pop'n Twinbee
7. Macross: Scramble Valkyrie
6. Cotton 100%
5. Parodius
4. Axelay
3. Cosmo Gang the Video
2. R-Type III
1. Super Aleste

Afterbirth · Post by **Afterbirth** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:41 pm

A good shump needs to have various things, all vary subjective, but for me..

1. Gameplay - this is extremely subjective as gameplay is an oft overused word thats hard to quantify. I like my shumps to have little inertia - IE when you stop moving the stick or pad, the ship stops dead. PC games tend to have inertia added to when you stop moving the pad, the ship will float to rest - giving the impression of a lack of gravity.
The games scrolling and ship movement should always be smooth IMO.

2. a decent scoring mecahnic.
This is probably the number one thing pushing shmups forward really. Every great recent shump has some kind of scoring mechanic that gives you the best risk for reward - for example simple things like multipliers (for example - shooting a series of ships in a row), through to bullet graising (touching bullets)

3. Graphics that attract the game to you. Obviously. A problem with the advancement of 3D over 2D so early on meant 2D was never fully exploited until recently.
It has an abilty to provide immense details that 3D just cannot provide because it works on a pixel level - this is evident in games like Gradius V (which did use 3D polygons, but with sharp 2D details added).
My favorite games always have bosses of some kind. These provide an alternative method of play, and a sence of heirachy.

4. Good Music. Ideally fitting of the world which its providing an audio backdrop for but can be anything really.

zinger · Post by **zinger** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:50 pm

The most important factor in my opinion is pace. It's hard to endure playing a game for score (ie spending tens of hours with it) if there are long passages with nothing going on (too easy or repetative).

There are of course other factors that matter. The size / speed of your ship should be in proportion to the action and bullets thrown at you - for instance. There are many ways to fuck up a game, but the pace issue is usually what developers get wrong. Still, that doesn't keep me from enjoying games with certain other qualities (such as atmosphere) as long as the flaws aren't too apparent. I generally need some kind of scoring mechanic or greater depth to keep playing the game after I have beaten it. However, I'd rather have a simple but balanced game over a complex confusing mess.

worstplayer · Post by **worstplayer** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:03 pm

It's hard (and highly subjective) to define what makes a good shmup. Here are just few things:

-good controls - You're supposed to fight enemies, not your own ship's quirks. Inertia is a big no-no, having ship that can only fly forward is also kinda useless. (moving across whole screen in half a second is not a good idea, ESD)
-collisions must "feel right" - too big, too small, or badly placed hitbox can mess up any game, and so can invisible bullets. (hitbox on tip of left wing is not a good idea, ESD)
-varied enemies - Not only they must look different, they must also act different (having 3 types of enemies moving and shooting exactly the same, just with different HP is not a good idea, ESD)
-varied levels - (flying over the same area and encountering same enemy formations over and over is not a good idea, ESD)
-balanced weapons - not too weak, not too strong, just proportional to game's pace. (killing final boss with two bombs is not a good idea, ESD)
-balanced difficulty - it must start easy and ramp up. (having nearly unavoidable attack in beggining of stage and nothing even remotely challenging until the boss is not a good idea, ESD)
-it must look and sound good (using stolen bitmaps and music is not a good idea, ESD).
-scoring system - i mostly play for survival but having another thing to keep player busy after 1cc is always good thing. Scoring should be intuitive but always keep room for improvement (1000point bonus being the only scoring element is not a good idea, ESD)
-and finally, no massive bugs making the game virtually unplayable (forgetting to unlock controls when starting new game is not a good idea, ESD)

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:12 pm

They should be really fun reflex-based math problems.

JJG · Post by **JJG** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:15 pm

Tig Bitties!

Nuke · Post by **Nuke** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:16 pm

Lolis and fat chicks, apparently.....

null1024 · Post by **null1024** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:11 pm

What makes a shmup good?

1.] Lots of stuff to shoot at. It's a SHOOT-em-up.
2.] Good patterns to dodge. Dodging bullets is second ONLY to shooting stuff in importance in a shmup.
3.] Bearable graphics. (If your eyes aren't bleeding, they're bearable.)

That's about all I can think of.

PS: Mars Matrix, Giga Wing, and pretty much EVERY Cave shooter are great examples of these things.

unsane · Post by **unsane** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:55 pm

worstplayer wrote:ESD ESD ESD ESD ESD ESD ESD

WTF is ESD?

zinger · Post by **zinger** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:59 pm

unsane wrote:
worstplayer wrote:ESD ESD ESD ESD ESD ESD ESD

WTF is ESD?

http://www.esd.org/

Noob.

woof · Post by **woof** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:33 pm

JJG wrote:Tig Bitties!

yup

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:34 pm

big explosions

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:35 pm

also the ability to snort cocaine

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:38 pm

In my opinion…

A great part of fun for me comes from figuring out bullet patterns and dodging my way through them. The less chaotic said patterns are, the more I generally like them. An example to this would be Shoot the Bullet.

Another extremely important aspect is the sense of reward the game provides to you, at least visually. It's not a matter of how great the graphic and sound technologies are, but rather the design. If you make a weapon, make it look interesting, sound powerful, and be fun to kill enemies with. If you make an enemy, make them do something other than fly on screen and then run away/shoot at you, make them explode in a manner that would make you want to scream "haha, fuck yes", "wow, awesome", etc.. DDP (and most other Cave games) is a perfect example of this.

The last, but not the least, is fitting music that sets the pace and atmosphere of each stage, and keep the drive to make you going at this game again and again. As an example, I'd name… say, Mushihime-sama.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:01 pm

I'll post something to clarify this "inertia" issue that often gets mentioned...

The best shmup ever made (IMHO, of course) has inertia, Stargate (1981, Arcade); it makes the best use of it because it's *fully* controllable with a dedicated 'thrust' button; and uses manual/ push scrolling... and it has a 'reverse' button to flip the ship in the opposite direction. An articulate use of this combination lets you move/ drift in one direction and fire in the opposite direction (with subtle control)...

... Shmups that have an "inertia" issue, IME, usually auto-scroll... The combination of auto-scroll (constant velocity) and inertia (variable velocity) 'distracts' the player with 2 'overlapping' velocity vectors, that have a hard to judge 'reference' point... it just doesn't 'mix' well...

worstplayer · Post by **worstplayer** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:02 pm

unsane wrote:
worstplayer wrote:ESD ESD ESD ESD ESD ESD ESD

WTF is ESD?

"Excellent Software Development". Authors of something that definitely doesn't belong in thread about good shmups.

ROBOTRON · Post by **ROBOTRON** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:17 pm

Re-playability
Music - must have good musics and sound efx.
graphics - must be eye catchy
play mechanics - must have good play mechanics/hitbox detection/good weaponry/nice bosses/interesting stages

SNES must haves:

1. Axelay
2. Space Megaforce
3. R-Type
4. Thunder Spirits (only if you can't get Genesis version)
5. Darius or EDF

doodude · Post by **doodude** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:19 pm

I hate to just flash my 'ignertness', but here goes... uh, cave, whatsa cave

zinger · Post by **zinger** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:29 pm

doodude wrote:I hate to just flash my 'ignertness', but here goes... uh, cave, whatsa cave

The most popular shooting game developer to date. Representing two different branches of modern day shooting, directed by Ikeda and Yagawa respectively.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:39 pm

doodude wrote:I hate to just flash my 'ignertness', but here goes... uh, cave, whatsa cave

I love it! Hats off to you sir!

Necronopticous · Post by **Necronopticous** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:57 pm

Reco.

FIL · Post by **FIL** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:01 pm

I like a bit of speed in my shmups and non-linear scoring as well as big boss battles.

Boobs and pretty dresses are also a bonus.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:19 pm

doodude wrote: Ive seen Robs countdown & thought some of the slammed games looked ok. What are you looking for in a great shmup?

-minimal repetition
-scoring elements beyond destroy enemy
-balanced weapons
-medium-small hitbox
-challenge
-originality

My SNES/SF list:
1. Bio Metal
2. Macross
3. Super Aleste
4. Axelay
5. system sucks

N64:

1. Star Soldier: Vanishing Earth

j^aws wrote:a dedicated 'thrust' button; and uses manual/ push scrolling... and it has a 'reverse' button to flip the ship in the opposite direction

Thrust and reverse were retarded ideas.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:23 pm

Rob wrote:
j^aws wrote:a dedicated 'thrust' button; and uses manual/ push scrolling... and it has a 'reverse' button to flip the ship in the opposite direction
Thrust and reverse were retarded ideas.

Explain, rather than troll?

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:25 pm

It makes a 1 button task, moving the ship, out of 3 buttons.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:32 pm

Rob wrote:It makes a 1 button task, moving the ship, out of 3 buttons.

That's better. This is a common complaint.

However, it uses 2-way vertical motion (2 digital inputs) + thrust + reverse ( 2 digital inputs) ---> sum of 4 digital inputs...

The alternative? 8-way motion (8 digital inputs)...

Also you can't use the same techniques with both control schemes...

JJG · Post by **JJG** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:37 pm

ESP ESP ESP ESP ESP

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:43 pm

The left hand/thumb can take over the left/right (thrust/reverse) commands effortlessly while those are piled around firing. One hand should handle movement while the other handles action commands.

Also you can't use the same techniques with both control schemes...

I'm sure they could've added a single button for reverse firing. Would be far more intuitive.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:03 pm

Rob wrote:The left hand/thumb can take over the left/right (thrust/reverse) commands effortlessly while those are piled around firing. One hand should handle movement while the other handles action commands.

Datastorm on the Amiga uses this control scheme...

What you lose is the 'twitch' control with the 'finer' thrust and reverse control you get with button presses because they're mapped to an 8-way motion control: Basically left/ right replaces reverse and this is slower than tapping a button; and tapping left/ right replaces thrust and it's less accurate than tapping a button when your making twitch motions; and directional change left/ right is *coupled* to thrust, when they were independent and *decoupled* before... so you lose the ability to thrust and change direction independently....

Rob wrote:
Also you can't use the same techniques with both control schemes...
I'm sure they could've added a single button for reverse firing. Would be far more intuitive.

Sidearms uses this control technique but it doesn't have inertia; which would need extra inputs...

shmups.system11.org

What Makes A Great Shmup, well...Great?

What Makes A Great Shmup, well...Great?

Re: What Makes A Great Shmup, well...Great?

Re: What Makes A Great Shmup, well...Great?