Differences between Thunder Force V SAT/PSX and why.

Zuhzuhzombie!! · Post by **Zuhzuhzombie!!** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:00 pm

Thunder Force V is one of those particularly good shooters. One of the interesting historical tidbits about it is that it debuted on the Saturn first (probably due to TF's Sega lineage) and was then ported to the Sony Playstation.

So, as with most cross platform titles, there's bound to be a comparison between the two. Other than the extra stuff added for the Playstation rerelease, there's word that the Saturn version is superior graphically compared to the Playstation.

One of the more specific examples is with the "Human Road" level. The Saturn version makes use of transparency to show a destroyed underground city below the surface. The Playstation simply has the surface, no transparency, no buried city.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kim132sYHPc

Link to the Saturn version of this level. The only thing I can think of is that, around 2:55 in the video, the camera pans and the image is zoomed out, but the transparencies are still there. Maybe the Playstation couldn't handle this?

Are there anymore specific examples and why is the Playstation version inferior? Obviously I won't need to go into the difference between the Saturn and the Playstation, but given what I know about the systems, the Playstation is the superior platform hardware wise. It's a bit confusing because of the use of transparencies. The Saturn used dithering to simulate transparency, but I imagine by 1997 developers had that worked out.

Is the difference between graphical quality due to the Playstation version being a direct port, if it is?

Anyone want to offer their input?

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:34 am

A superior platform doesn't equate a better version of a game - that's common sense. Although Tecnosoft handled the port themselves, evidently they didn't care enough to squeeze from PS1 power enough to replicate the graphical flourish of the original.

They weren't completely lazy though; the analog support is sweet, the game flows a little smoother (less slowdown) and it has plenty of juicy extras. So unlike other blatant cases were one version is clearly superior to another, both TFV and TFVPS have their supporters.

Just for you know - I'm being extremely polite here (not thinking to a joke account and all), but be aware that such a topic can spam a flamewar into nanoseconds. This one of the questions that should never be addressed around these parts, see the forum FAQ.

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:57 am

SAT version had some terrible frameskipping (not slowdown, frame loss).

Frame loss is a lot more annoying.

PSX version didn't have this problem at all.

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:01 am

Bah. If people can't handle a discussion about something as simple as game versions without resorting to flames and insults, it's their problem, and they should be the ones dealt with, not the subject matter... in my opinion of course

Anyway, sure the PS1 version has some extra perks like the cinemas and hidden ships, but I think the overall graphical presentation gives the Saturn version the edge. True transparencies are used pretty generously throughout several of the levels, which are mysteriously missing on the PS1 version. That always puzzled me, especially since Working Designs could have added them back in if they wanted to. Makes me wonder if the mix of 2D and 3D was just too much for either developer to overcome.

Oh, and the fact that the ending is done in "real time" on the Saturn, as opposed to "recorded" on the PS1 gave the Saturn another point in my book. That compression breakup just looks horrible on the PS1.

But as was said, both games have their points over each other. For me though, I've always leaned more towards the Saturn version.

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:04 am

The Coop wrote:Anyway, sure the PS1 version has some extra perks like the cinemas and hidden ships, but I think the overall graphical presentation gives the Saturn version the edge. True transparencies are used pretty generously throughout several of the levels, which are mysteriously missing on the PS1 version. That always puzzled me, especially since Working Designs could have added them back in if they wanted to. Makes me wonder if the mix of 2D and 3D was just too much for either developer to overcome.

Hidden ship?

HeWhoGoverns · Post by **HeWhoGoverns** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:16 am

If you pressed certain buttons on the player 2 controller when you started the game, you unlocked different versions of the gauntlet with different colors. There was a red one, which was extremely fast, and a couple of others. They had different attributes, like faster craw regeneration and more powerful weapons.

EDIT: This only works with the PSX version.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:40 am

I loved the purple one... I think it was the purple. Basically it couldn't move -slowest ship ever- but everything it hit had a 16x multiplier or so... Scoring goodness.

Wait, maybe it was the green one... don't remember.

Zach Keene · Post by **Zach Keene** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:49 am

Turrican wrote:This one of the questions that should never be addressed around these parts, see the forum FAQ.

In fairness, the FAQ specifically omits this particular topic on account of the fact that all the previous (and exhaustive) threads on the subject went down with the Gamespy forum. (Surprisingly it has rarely if ever been brought up again since.)

lawnspic · Post by **lawnspic** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:54 am

Both versions are very good, they both deserve merit. This is not like Souky or DDP which there is a noticeable difference between platforms. You cant go wrong with either version. I consider myself a expert on this game, because it was my favorite and almost got a 1 life on it (no not 1CC) on the PSX ver. Awesome game!

Post by **nZero** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:53 am

The Saturn VDP1 only had an issue with sprite/polygon alpha blending. Background layers didn't have any limitations with regard to that. That includes background layers drawn in the foreground, like the translucent clouds in Soukyugurentai.

The big issue was probably that while the Saturn had dedicated drawing hardware for background layers and windows (VDP2), the Playstation could only operate with textured polygons. Given the multiple layers and heavy parallax, limited VRAM for texture storage as well as fillrate limitations probably prevented reproduction on the PSX. Cutting out a few layers is probably still better than downsampling backgrounds and adding lots of slowdown (Souky) or no port at all (Silvergun).

lgb · Post by **lgb** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:41 pm

The Coop wrote:Bah. If people can't handle a discussion about something as simple as game versions without resorting to flames and insults, it's their problem, and they should be the ones dealt with, not the subject matter... in my opinion of course

Not just yours. This is why I hate half the forums of the world. They don't believe this.

Zuhzuhzombie!! · Post by **Zuhzuhzombie!!** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:03 pm

LGB wrote:
The Coop wrote:Bah. If people can't handle a discussion about something as simple as game versions without resorting to flames and insults, it's their problem, and they should be the ones dealt with, not the subject matter... in my opinion of course
Not just yours. This is why I hate half the forums of the world. They don't believe this.

Seriously. I didn't see "Thunder Force V" variations in the forbidden topics list in the FAQ, and if I can't ask without something getting their panties in a bunch, it's not my fault. I'm just glad people are being nice and not assuming this is a joke account. Whatever that means.

Me and a friend usually discuss TFV. He's never played the Saturn version and I've never played the PSX version, so I never know what the main differences were.

Last we spoke, he mentioned something about the boss transitions on level 5 being absent from the Playstation version.

He wants to get a Saturn to play it.

One of the things we can agree on, though, is that the music to level 3 is killer. Heard the PSX version has better music as well. Not sure about that, either.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:13 pm

Great thread, imo. We need more like it.

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:23 pm

Django! wrote:Heard the PSX version has better music as well. Not sure about that, either.

To the best of my knowledge, both games use the same soundtrack. The PS1 version has a couple added/changed tunes for the cinemas, but I believe the stage and boss music is the same in both.

As for the joke account thing, every once in a while, someone on a forum makes a new secondary account just to stir shit up or go for the "lulz" as it were. They make a topic that they're sure will get people irked, and run with it.

Zuhzuhzombie!! · Post by **Zuhzuhzombie!!** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:12 pm

Does anyone know what band Tsukumo Hyakutarou?

He is the fella behind the TFV music, correct?

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:39 pm

Django! wrote:Does anyone know what band Tsukumo Hyakutarou?

He is the fella behind the TFV music, correct?

Tsukumo Hyakutarou is the composer for the TFV OST, correct.

The Coop wrote:
Django! wrote:
Heard the PSX version has better music as well. Not sure about that, either.

To the best of my knowledge, both games use the same soundtrack. The PS1 version has a couple added/changed tunes for the cinemas, but I believe the stage and boss music is the same in both.

The Saturn OST is redbook while the PSX OST is yellowbook.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:40 pm

the music is the same in both, i have both. just like it was mentioned above.... some new tunes in the cut scenes. nothing really noteworthy in that area.

but out of both I prefer the sat version. they killed to many of the backgrounds. the biggest is the mechanical city stage with the big motorcycles, in the saturn version the floor is a metal grid you can see through, behind it there is multi paralax scrolling of the city going by. in the psx version it just has a flat metal floor.

Zuhzuhzombie!! · Post by **Zuhzuhzombie!!** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:00 pm

Tsukumo Hyakutarou is the composer for the TFV OST, correct.

What band is it that he's in?

Post by **nZero** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:45 pm

Django! wrote:
Tsukumo Hyakutarou is the composer for the TFV OST, correct.
What band is it that he's in?

He's not. Unless Factory Noise & AG considers themselves a band now. All of the music for Thunder Force V was done on a Roland SC-88Pro sound module.

Zuhzuhzombie!! · Post by **Zuhzuhzombie!!** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:31 pm

nZero wrote:
Django! wrote:
Tsukumo Hyakutarou is the composer for the TFV OST, correct.
What band is it that he's in?
He's not. Unless Factory Noise & AG considers themselves a band now. All of the music for Thunder Force V was done on a Roland SC-88Pro sound module.

I think it's referenced in his Wiki that he's a composer and member of a "Noise Band". Unless they're referring specifically to Factory Noise.

J-Manic · Post by **J-Manic** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:47 pm

Both versions are good. You can't go wrong with either. The only thing I dislike about the PS version, though, is that you can't adjust the BGM volume in options. I like to hear the BGM music loud and clear during gameplay. It's a bit low, making the sound effects sound too loud.

Zeether · Post by **Zeether** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:17 am

I hate how you can only play through the first 4 stages on Easy mode on the PSX version...

Ah, what the fuck, I can handle Normal.

shinsage · Post by **shinsage** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:57 am

there's a reason the PS1 version's subtitle is 'Perfect System'.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:29 am

shinsage wrote:there's a reason the PS1 version's subtitle is 'Perfect System'.

To confuse buyers? It obviously isn't perfect.

By the way, there's another notable difference (albeit not gameplay related): The original Japanese print of Thunder Force V Perfect System for PS1 is extremely rare and goes for more than twice as much as the regular Saturn version.

Of course if you aren't a collector you can always go for the American Working Designs release, which is pretty common. There's also a Japanese re-release (Tecno Soft Collection 2500 series).