Shmup visual aesthetics: prefer hand-drawn or rendered?

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:49 pm

I actually prefer my sprites pixelated - it makes my videogames feel more videogame-y. Really using every pixel you have to create a living game world is a challenge in itself - just look at the Alucard sprite in SOTN. I wouldn´t want that in high-res.

Same goes for Street Fighter HD - those new sprites don´t remind me of videogames, they remind me of Photoshop and anime.

And as whole, I adore when people try to squeeze every last drop of technical capabilities to create something impressive, trying to find ways to really max out, stuff like 64k intros or ZZT.

nem · Post by **nem** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:41 pm

JoshF wrote:When you're done, use this simple guide I created.

Now imagine something more complex that would have to animated. I don't care about hi-res Metal Slug or In the Hunt sequels that don't exist, I'm talking empirically. So far that is what hi-res amounts to.

Balls to that.

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:35 pm

Cool. Now do it to this screenshot using that shading style. I've upscaled it for you.

An Undercover Cops screen will suffice if that is too difficult.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:37 pm

you didn't get the secret hostages

nem · Post by **nem** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:53 pm

JoshF wrote:Cool. Now do it to this screenshot using that shading style. I've upscaled it for you.

Yes, because that's how the artists worked on Metal Slug. First they made the graphics for a 160x112 screen, then they upscaled it, and then finally added in all of the missing detail.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:58 pm

JoshF wrote: I appreciate your effort in trying to manufacture a Fighter17 moment,

lulz

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:12 pm

nem wrote:
JoshF wrote:Cool. Now do it to this screenshot using that shading style. I've upscaled it for you.
Yes, because that's how the artists worked on Metal Slug. First they made the graphics for a 160x112 screen, then they upscaled it, and then finally added in all of the missing detail.

IIRC from one of the Nazca team interviews the character art had to be done pixel by pixel.

The way Capcom did it 1995-2000? was much easier and could be adapted to higher definition screens, though. Drawing -> downscaled to screen resolution -> fine-tuning = sprite done!

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:18 pm

nem wrote:Yes, because that's how the artists worked on Metal Slug. First they made the graphics for a 160x112 screen, then they upscaled it, and then finally added in all of the missing detail.

Add some detail to this guy then (because he's sorely needing it.)

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:29 pm

JoshF wrote:
nem wrote:Yes, because that's how the artists worked on Metal Slug. First they made the graphics for a 160x112 screen, then they upscaled it, and then finally added in all of the missing detail.
Add some detail to this guy then (because he's sorely needing it.)

shut up. seriously, you're embarrassing yourself.

what a ridiculously flawed example, you excluded the 2 areas of shadow shading and the detail on the line.. did the resolution prevent you from doing this?? NO!

just because a sprite is high res doesnt mean it needs covering with high detail, youre confusing art direction and stylistic choices with .. resolution?

nobody's going to indulge your "WELL ADD DETAIL TO THIS THEN!" argument because it's so SLAP YOU IN THE FACE OBVIOUS that you can, if you wanted to, BUT THATS NOT HOW IT WAS DECIDED TO BE DRAWN!!

wether that was a decision of the art director, or a budgetary or time constraint, we dont know, but it's NOT an issue of resultion.

god, there's some idiots on this forum.

Necronom · Post by **Necronom** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:42 pm

JoshF wrote:
nem wrote:Yes, because that's how the artists worked on Metal Slug. First they made the graphics for a 160x112 screen, then they upscaled it, and then finally added in all of the missing detail.
Add some detail to this guy then (because he's sorely needing it.)

Why adding some detail here? Shitty art is shitty art...won't get any better. Empirically speaking of course...

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:50 pm

Necronom wrote: Why adding some detail here? Shitty art is shitty art...won't get any better. Empirically speaking of course...

no , no , no NO!! you fool!!

it's the resolution - Josh said so, he must have done graphics on hundreds of well recieved games ... you see... empirically speaking, the more option of detail you HAVE, the less you'll do... because.. er.. well take paper.. lets assume that has INFINITE resolution due to the minute strokes of the worlds finest pencils and brushes... i mean who's ever done anything detailed on paper???

see? paper.. it's SHIT for detail!

this is why mobile phone graphics have more detail than hokuto no ken arcade.. or something..

ain't that right jeff?

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:52 pm

what a ridiculously flawed example, you excluded the 2 areas of shadow shading and the detail on the line.. did the resolution prevent you from doing this?? NO!

I was using hi-res style art direction.

just because a sprite is high res doesnt mean it needs covering with high detail, youre confusing art direction and stylistic choices with .. resolution?

No I'm not. That particular art direction is unrealistic for a high-res game because it's time consuming and takes a specialized staff to accomplish. Unless a publisher is willing to give a developer unlimited time and staff, you're never going to see that style in a high-res game (maybe if the animation takes huge hit.) There's a reason those games opt for the same shitty hi-res anime cel look, they don't all magically end up having identical art direction.

wether that was a decision of the art director, or a budgetary or time constraint, we dont know, but it's NOT an issue of resultion.

Budgetary and time constraint, not resolution.

I bet that Fighter17 moment is going to happen soon.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:56 pm

so why did you come out with "low res allows for more detail" ?

if you'd said more time and money, you'd be right, but instead you're the proud owner of a quote to rival the "shootemups offer more intellectually than any novel" we got had a while ago...

"high res style art direction" is a good one too...

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:59 pm

so why did you come out with "low res allows for more detail" ?

if you'd said more time and money, you'd be right, but instead you're the proud owner of a quote to rival the "shootemups offer more intellectually than any novel" we got had a while ago...

If you take it out of context it does sound ridiculous.

nlen83 · Post by **nlen83** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:02 pm

I think if shmups stayed with the Dodonpachi 2D or similar everything would be wonderful and fun. Same 2D stuff just higher resolution and more detail I say. Thats basically sex bomb central. Shitty 3D just doesn't hold up over the years, ya know?

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:09 pm

i like the look of ssf2thdr. high resolution, great detail, and i think it's all hand-drawn by udon (2 hours per frame, each character has 200+ frames of animation).

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:09 pm

Improper example:

Low Res / High Res

Proper example:

Low Res / High Res

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:13 pm

I don't want to say it, but high resolution tends to be a problem with African Americans.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:37 pm

jpj wrote:i like the look of ssf2thdr. high resolution, great detail, and i think it's all hand-drawn by udon (2 hours per frame, each character has 200+ frames of animation).

only one DRAWING per character was drawn by udon, the rest of the work is outsourced to an unnamed location,

personally I think the whole project looks amateurish at best.

Pixel_Outlaw · Post by **Pixel_Outlaw** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:49 pm

As I see it the higher resolution allows for a more deteiled picture but the time involved to add such detail makes it painfull to do 90's eara arcade sprites. So other methods are used like scaled prerender and hand drawn images and of course true 3D rendering. You can have traditional pixel art in high res but the time involved grows with the resolution.

A simple 32x32 sprite takes 16 times as long to draw with decent detail if you want a 128x128 image. Reason? A 4x4 grid of 32x32 makes a 128x128 sprite.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:50 pm

harshness.

i actually sorta hope projects like this fail. people always bang on about how good a "hi-res remake of [insert game] would be", or a sequel to fav game [whatever]. but often, these games will never live up to the expectations of the rabid fanboy. sometimes it's better to just leave history alone. SSFIIX doesn't need updated graphics to still be a great game. if something isn't broke, don't fix it.

and street fighter 4 is just gonna cause mass-suicide.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:56 pm

Pixel_Outlaw wrote:As I see it the higher resolution allows for a more deteiled picture but the time involved to add such detail makes it painfull to do 90's eara arcade sprites. So other methods are used like scaled prerender and hand drawn images and of course true 3D rendering. You can have traditional pixel art in high res but the time involved grows with the resolution.

A simple 32x32 sprite takes 16 times as long to draw with decent detail if you want a 128x128 image. Reason? A 4x4 grid of 32x32 makes a 128x128 sprite.

or draw a source image even larger in, say photoshop, scale it down and clean it up..

no professional pixel artist plots everything pixel by pixel, so I wouldnt exponentially increase the time frame in that way..

I have to produce pixel work in my dayjob to 3 different sizes - the most efficient way is to produce the large artwork, then scale down from there and retouch the rough bits - a lot of professional tools like debabelizer now have filtered scaling that retains the original pallette, it saves a lot of time, and please don't say that's cheating as sega japan was using this tool for colour reduction back in the 90's.

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:01 pm

I think the main problem with HD Remix isn't that the artists are using horse anatomy for reference, it's that no one is going to play it seriously. I wonder if Capcom USA seriously believes it's going to replace SSFIIX in tournament play or something.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:08 pm

well, the full work process is, that udon traces a frame, retouches it, hands it of to some unnamed outsourcer, who then traces the rest of the frames, takes existing character art from capcom off the internet, and scales the faces , and pastes them on the sketches, then does a half assed job "pillow shading" the rest in photoshop.

the sprites are one thing, the backgrounds are a whole new level of eyesore.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:20 pm

i doubt they give a flying fuck, to be honest.

capcom is probably the best publisher with regards to fan service, and risk taking. it's creaming the money at the moment. if the game bombs, it's not like they don't have plenty of other games that will sell in big numbers in the same fiscal year.

whether a game is played "seriously" by the "pros" isn't really what matters. how it sells is what matters. 3rd strike fuckin' bombed when it came out. it was years later that the game had a resurgence as people realised how deep it is. i thought evo were looking at ditching it, before the whole daigo thing, because attendance figures were so low (?). but if everyone and his dog loves the game years later, it doesn't make capcom as much money as they would have if the game took off from the beginning.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:30 pm

jpj wrote:i doubt they give a flying fuck, to be honest.

well, they don't.. it's a game made for the US market on XBLA to be sold at a pretty low price, the whole thing is being done on the cheap for maximum profit, capcom japan sure as hell don't care , jusdging how they're letting them do such a half assed job.. anyways, off topic... just don't use this as an prime example of high res 2D

Pixel_Outlaw · Post by **Pixel_Outlaw** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:31 am

pixelcorps wrote: no professional pixel artist plots everything pixel by pixel, so I wouldnt exponentially increase the time frame in that way..

You can't support that statement. I doubt you have polled all artists in the world. If you could you would find that it is still done for cell phone games and some handhelds. And I know a few comissioned pixel artists that do it by this method.

Ayanami · Post by **Ayanami** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:48 am

JoshF wrote:Unless a publisher is willing to give a developer unlimited time and staff, you're never going to see that style in a high-res game (maybe if the animation takes huge hit.)

The animation already took a huge hit. Look at Last Blade and GGXX. GGXX animates worth a shit.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:14 am

Pixel_Outlaw wrote:
pixelcorps wrote: no professional pixel artist plots everything pixel by pixel, so I wouldnt exponentially increase the time frame in that way..
You can't support that statement. I doubt you have polled all artists in the world. If you could you would find that it is still done for cell phone games and some handhelds. And I know a few comissioned pixel artists that do it by this method.

well, thats's my job, pixel graphics on mobile..

i meant that just because it's larger , a pixel artist doesnt have to make x2 / x4 the amount of mouse clicks!!! we dont do EVERY SINGLE PIXEL one at a time!! - we have circle draws and fills etc, amongst other functions in graphics tools, and also graphics tablets!!! - not to mention deadlines..

320x240 · Post by **320x240** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:20 pm

JoshF wrote:Low-res allows for more detailed graphics.

Low-res give objects more 'weight' too and it's easier to get a more overall lively, organic look. It's like the difference between cell based animation and clay/doll based animation.

Of course high-res could potentially be both more detailed and give objects more weight, but that's not what the argument is about. In the real world this has yet to happen.