Shmup visual aesthetics: prefer hand-drawn or rendered?

PC Engine Fan X! · Post by **PC Engine Fan X!** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:01 pm

Do you wish modern-day shmup developers would go back to the days of such extragant & lavish "old school" hand-drawn sprites (i.e. 3 Wonder's Rooster/Chariots shmup, etc.) or the modern-day rendered sprites currently used in the latest arcade shmup titles (i.e. Death Smiles, etc.)?

It was surprising to learn that Cave used pre-rendered graphics for the player/enemy characters in the ESP.ra.de PCB -- I assumed that it was all done by hand, of course..... ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

Pixel_Outlaw · Post by **Pixel_Outlaw** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:07 pm

Really it is a matter of screen resolution. Nobody wants to do pixel by pixel sprites in the crazy resolutions people seem to prefer. So they simply make a 3d model with a white light source and bulr the shit out of it when scaling up and down.

I hate pre rendered graphics I always feel that they are trying to convey 3d images but fail when the images move and the illusion is lost. Most 2d sprites aren't out to trick the user into thinking they are 3d they are enjoyed for being 2d art with no perspective save some shading. I think pre render is sort of a bastard child stuck between two great art forms 2d and 3d. If you look at sprites from DonPachi and DoDonpachi you will see that they are much more crisp and defined. Playing on MAME still blurrs the original sprites on my computer even in pixel aspect ratio.

battlegorge · Post by **battlegorge** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:37 pm

Pixel_Outlaw wrote:Playing on MAME still blurrs the original sprites on my computer even in pixel aspect ratio.

Try turning off bilinear filtering.

I prefer pixel graphics like in raiden dx, dodonpachi and batsugun.

PC Engine Fan X! · Post by **PC Engine Fan X!** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:41 pm

Some shmuppers have expressed their wish to see such a high-res arcade shmup title created (a la "Guilty Gear" type of aesthetics flair) in 640 x 480 or even higher up screen resolutions -- it would essentially be a native 31kHz shmup title per se...

And could Cave pull something like that off (assuming if they wanted to go with that particular graphical format)? Would be quite a dramatic departure from the usual 15kHz low-res Cave produced arcade PCB titles, of course (meaning all-new hardware to pull off that task or develop for an already well-established 31kHz capable arcade mobo platform)... ^_~

I agree by trying out both DP & DDP PCBs on a real low-res 15.7 kHz analog RGB monitor setup, that's the best that hand-drawn sprites are going to be as they're rendered "1 to 1" as Cave originally intended them to be...so crisp & razor-sharp, there's really no equal! ^_~

MathU · Post by **MathU** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:05 am

I always prefer hand-drawn sprites in 2-D games.

Kaspal · Post by **Kaspal** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:57 am

i too prefer hand drawn graphics... i dont know, they are just more appealing to me... its not that i dislike pre rendered graphics, is just that hand drawn look way better IMHO than the other one. and well, is just nostalgic anyway.

Dragon1952 · Post by **Dragon1952** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:24 am

I prefer hand-drawn sprites in 2D games! Low res is fine to me...

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:02 am

Boo freaking Hoo. Everybody already knows we're a bunch of old codgers who can only get orgasms from hand-drawn sprites (and sealed games).

As much as I love the old Toaplan stuff, I think RaDe and Guwange and all the newer stuff look fantastic too. I know I am being an asshole now, but the very first thing that came into my head when I saw this topic is "Oh no, not another polygon/prerendered-bashing hand-drawn high horse jizzfest".

And yeah I'm in a bad mood now. (So no offense to PCEFX or P_O)

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:10 am

Low-res allows for more detailed graphics. So far anything high-res has been shitty looking imitation anime cells. I'd like to see ArcSy squeeze as much detail into 80 pixels that Irem in their 2D prime could do in 20.

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:24 am

"Oh no, not another polygon/prerendered-bashing hand-drawn high horse jizzfest".

Everyone here knows developers didn't switch to pre-rendered graphics for the aesthetic qualities, it's because it takes less people, it's easier, and good pixel artists aren't easy to find anymore. It's a watered down art, so naturally a fan of 2D would prefer the purer form. It's just like people who want to know Disney for Fantasia and Snow White instead of Finding Nemo.

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:01 am

Fair enough, but I have to disagree with this:

JoshF wrote:it takes less people, it's easier

Modelling, texturing, and doing the 3D geometric deformations for animation are not trivial, and it still takes a big team of very skilled people to do 3D well. Don't tell me Finding Nemo was easier to make than Snow White, because I don't think they can be compared like that. It's like comparing running across the country, to building a car from scratch so you can drive across. Both get you across the country in the end but require different kinds of very difficult work in the process.

I admit pixel and rendered art give different aesthetics with one which may be more pleasing than the other sometimes, but each have different qualities and both demand very high skill from the artists for a good effect.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:06 am

JoshF wrote:
"Oh no, not another polygon/prerendered-bashing hand-drawn high horse jizzfest".
Everyone here knows developers didn't switch to pre-rendered graphics for the aesthetic qualities, it's because it takes less people, it's easier, and good pixel artists aren't easy to find anymore. It's a watered down art, so naturally a fan of 2D would prefer the purer form. It's just like people who want to know Disney for Fantasia and Snow White instead of Finding Nemo.

At least Finding Nemo is less sexist than Snow White.

In a way, I think hand drawn art is better, but at the same time you can do really amazing stuff with pre-rendered as long as you go back and detail the objects. For a good example, look at the huge insectoid in Stage 3 of Mushihimesama: It's eyes and different shoulder pieces are all really detailed, and quite stunning. For a bad example, look at the big insect's legs, which are totally smooth and plain.

escadrille · Post by **escadrille** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:24 am

I definately prefer hand-drawn art as a matter of personal taste. But that could also be lingering nostalgia.

Hand-drawn will always have the benefit of being "old school."

elvis · Post by **elvis** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:35 am

iatneH wrote:Fair enough, but I have to disagree with this:
JoshF wrote:it takes less people, it's easier
Modelling, texturing, and doing the 3D geometric deformations for animation are not trivial, and it still takes a big team of very skilled people to do 3D well. Don't tell me Finding Nemo was easier to make than Snow White, because I don't think they can be compared like that. It's like comparing running across the country, to building a car from scratch so you can drive across. Both get you across the country in the end but require different kinds of very difficult work in the process.

I admit pixel and rendered art give different aesthetics with one which may be more pleasing than the other sometimes, but each have different qualities and both demand very high skill from the artists for a good effect.

Agreed. As someone who works with and around both 2D and 3D artists daily, I wouldn't consider either art form "easier" than the other, nor would I call either one "washed out".

Both require substantial skill to do well, and both can be cocked up easily by poor artists.

With that said, aesthetically speaking I prefer 2D. I prefer hand-drawn animation to 3D/computer animation, and I prefer pixel art to anything else. But I'm an old fart, and old habits die hard.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:56 am

JoshF wrote:Low-res allows for more detailed graphics.

what?

worstplayer · Post by **worstplayer** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:25 am

Prerendered sprites can look great if done correctly (see Cyvern, Gigawing) but most times authors just think something like
"it'll be rendered into blocky 32x32 sprite anyway, why bother with textures and lighting"
and it results in ugly plastic "barbie" look.
I really like how it's done in DDP, rendered sprites with manually added details. It must be a lot of work, but results are just amazing.

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:18 pm

Modelling, texturing, and doing the 3D geometric deformations for animation are not trivial

Once that model is done, you're just moving around some wires. In 2D a model has to be built, textured, shaded in each frame. It's not that CG doesn't take skill, but it takes less of a certain kind of skill that I think is more artistic.

what?

Compare Metal Slug 3 to Hokuto no Ken.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:35 pm

JoshF wrote:
what?
Compare Metal Slug 3 to Hokuto no Ken.

I totally agree -- for me, it's much easier to inject intricate details in a smaller image, whereas in higher res image I end up needing alot of "filler." You could make a high res game as detailed as something like Metal Slug, but it's extremely time consuming and costs alot of money.

nem · Post by **nem** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:44 pm

JoshF wrote:Low-res allows for more detailed graphics.

Almost sig-worthy.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:53 pm

elvis wrote:aesthetically speaking I prefer 2D. I prefer hand-drawn animation to 3D/computer animation, and I prefer pixel art to anything else. But I'm an old fart, and old habits die hard.

You don't have to let your old habits die. There are a couple more old farts who would like you to join them:

2D Gaming. Because real men do it in 2D.

And while one must admit that Cave does the pre-rendering pretty well, I do prefer hand drawn pixels, too.

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:15 pm

Handdraw thanks.

Nuke · Post by **Nuke** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:39 pm

Just as with anime and cartoons, hand drawn please.
It's just way more artistic and soulful in the same way that you get a warmer feeling from listening to a vinyl record than a cd, if not even more so.

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:51 pm

Almost sig-worthy.

I'll give you some help.

Hi-res
Low-res

So, unless you have a humongous staff or 10 year development period...

Low-res allows for more detailed graphics.

unsane · Post by **unsane** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:26 pm

I'm really out of the loop on this stuff. Correct me if i'm wrong, but the newer "pre-rendered" stuff looks way more pixelated. It's a definite step backwards in quality. So why is this what everyone uses now? Is the cost/time for making pre-rendered so much lower that it's worth sacrificing quality?

But then, going by the thread title and posts in this thread, it almost sounds like i'm imagining this pixellation, or biased/blinded due to being raised with hand-drawn games... For e.g., do teenagers today unanimously prefer pre-rendered to hand-drawn?

/confused

Necronom · Post by **Necronom** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:05 pm

Zebra Airforce wrote:
JoshF wrote:
what?
Compare Metal Slug 3 to Hokuto no Ken.
I totally agree -- for me, it's much easier to inject intricate details in a smaller image, whereas in higher res image I end up needing alot of "filler." You could make a high res game as detailed as something like Metal Slug, but it's extremely time consuming and costs alot of money.

That's true though comparing those two games is pretty much an apples and oranges thing - two completely different artstyles. Japanese mecha/weapon/machinery designs are often overloaded with details which is not very often the case with characters - at least not to this extent.

"Low-res allows for more detailed graphics."

From a technical point of view, the above sentence is nonsense. Higher resolutions are always about more details. Of course, if you have a rather small team it might make more sense to go low res in order to get it done while still keeping a certain level of detail. If you go for a higher resolution and don't have the art to fill in the spaces things can turn out very sterile and cold.
At the end it's always about design and artwork in the first place, no matter whether you do 2d or 3d CGI.
Arc Systems's Battle Fantasia is a good example that a skillful done mixture of both can lead to a very beautiful result that doesn't look or feel sterile at all. Wish somebody would resurrect IREM's In the Hunt this way...

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:10 pm

JoshF wrote:Low-res allows for more detailed graphics.

And Barbra Streisand is a good looking woman. And raw capitalism is a fair system beneficial to all. And the dollar is a strong currency. And Ben Affleck is an actor. And Bush jr. is an intelligent president. And Boston Legal continues to be clever and funny after season 2. And communism works. And biodiesel is good for the environment. And black is white. And up is down.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:48 pm

When you take animation to account, lower resolution can be more detailed.

Nuke · Post by **Nuke** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:56 pm

But higher, if used correctly, is sharper and therefore allows for more detail while low-res tends to take some of it away due to blurriness and lack of colors.
Just imagine if they'd make Metal Slug today, but in high-res.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:58 pm

That would be pretty nice, but given the current circumstances of the video game market that's never going to happen.

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:29 pm

And Barbra Streisand is a good looking woman. And raw capitalism is a fair system beneficial to all. And the dollar is a strong currency. And Ben Affleck is an actor. And Bush jr. is an intelligent president. And Boston Legal continues to be clever and funny after season 2. And communism works. And biodiesel is good for the environment. And black is white. And up is down.

I appreciate your effort in trying to manufacture a Fighter17 moment, but maybe you should re-read what I wrote in it's entirety. When you're done, use this simple guide I created.

Now imagine something more complex that would have to animated. I don't care about hi-res Metal Slug or In the Hunt sequels that don't exist, I'm talking empirically. So far that is what hi-res amounts to.