I took the plunge into insanity (PCB's)

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:29 am

Yes, by acquiring your first Cave arcade shmup PCB, you just can't stop at just one...as there are others to discover and/or try out. ^_~

It's true, right after i got my 1st (ESPgaluda 2) I had to have Ibara. Since I lucked out and got ESP 2 in a complete kit all of a sudden I had to have Ibara the same way. Then Mushi, Alien vs Predator ect....

It evil, it'll get you. I've gotten:

Alien vs Predator
Aliens
Raiden Fighters 2
Esp galuda 2
Ibara

and working on paying off mushi, then when i think about what I've spent the past 3 months, ugh!

SuperGrafx · Post by **SuperGrafx** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:58 am

PCB's are definitely a hardcore option. I agree with most of what everyone has said here...once you start, you can't stop!

Good luck with the collecting!

gcjae1 · Post by **gcjae1** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:45 pm

My first PCB arrived yesterday (Espgaluda 2 Full Kit).

I'm just waiting for my Supergun to arrive now so I can play it!

DirtyMonk · Post by **DirtyMonk** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:26 pm

What a coincidence, my first PCB kit also arrived today, and it was also an Espgaluda 2 full kit. But instead of a Super Gun, I opted for a cab...which I don't have yet.

Is it just me, or are more people taking that plunge into PCBs?

Gwyrgyn Blood · Post by **Gwyrgyn Blood** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:37 pm

ESPG2 seems like a popular choice lately because it's dirt cheap these days. I'm still waiting for someone to put a Mushi Futari on sale for around $700-800. :I

gcjae1 · Post by **gcjae1** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:05 pm

Dirty Monk... don't for a minute think that a cab wasn't at the top of my shopping list. Unfortunately space was the issue

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:08 pm

I think those who like this genre will dabble in PCB's at some point, its just the way to go! There is no better option in quality terms.

DirtyMonk · Post by **DirtyMonk** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:28 pm

gcjae1 wrote:Dirty Monk... don't for a minute think that a cab wasn't at the top of my shopping list. Unfortunately space was the issue

I didn't.

Hey, sorry if I offended you by the way I worded my last reply. I didn't mean to come off as a pompous prick there. Space was also an issue for me--now I have no idea where I'm going to store my PCBs!

gcjae1 · Post by **gcjae1** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:33 pm

No offense taken.

I thinking of ways that I can pursuade the missus that we need a bigger house

I just don't want to push my luck. I have already completely taken over one room in the house with my stuff. If I put a couple of Egret 2's in there as well the ceiling may not hold

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:46 pm

I'm not sure I understand the allure of PCBs without the cab. Yeah, it's your only option if it's a game that's not ported or emulated, but otherwise I don't quite get it. Why prefer a supergun over a console? They aren't more reliable/durable, they take up huge space, and they're incredibly expensive. Perhaps someone can help me out here. Is it mainly about collecting things that are of sentimental value or something along those lines?

I agree it's another matter entirely if you have a cabinet. Sadly, I don't see having room until the kids move out and I hardly want that to happen anytime soon. Plus, the money required would likely be prohibitive.

Post by **undamned** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:04 pm

professor ganson wrote:I'm not sure I understand the allure of PCBs without the cab. Yeah, it's your only option if it's a game that's not ported or emulated, but otherwise I don't quite get it. Why prefer a supergun over a console?

For me it's like the difference between listening to a CD and going to a live show. Sure the CD can be an uber high quality recording, but being there, you know you aren't missing anything.
-ud

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:17 pm

professor ganson wrote:I'm not sure I understand the allure of PCBs without the cab. Yeah, it's your only option if it's a game that's not ported or emulated, but otherwise I don't quite get it. Why prefer a supergun over a console? They aren't more reliable/durable, they take up huge space, and they're incredibly expensive. Perhaps someone can help me out here. Is it mainly about collecting things that are of sentimental value or something along those lines?

I agree it's another matter entirely if you have a cabinet. Sadly, I don't see having room until the kids move out and I hardly want that to happen anytime soon. Plus, the money required would likely be prohibitive.

Is the argument here on supergun vs cab? Because superguns don't take up huge space, not much more than a large console. As for cost, it depends on what games you choose. Don't be put off by people buying $700 PCBs left and right. I always recommend MVS as a starter because a lot of carts can be had for $10-$50, I hardly call that prohibitive. A lot of excellent older games around $70-120, which is still no more than double the price of a new Japanese console release.

I agree in most cases, console releases are "good enough". But if you get a chance to play an emulated version or port side by side with a PCB version, you might find that even minor differences can make the PCB more appealing to play.

For me personally, the two games were ESP RaDe and OutZone in MAME VS. PCB.
OutZone is simply all screwed up in MAME, and the speed difference in ESP RaDe is pronounced enough that if I got used to playing in MAME, then I could no longer time my shots properly for high scoring when I visited my local arcade.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:28 pm

Interesting. I guess if we're talking about MVS carts, there isn't the space issue. But I'm right in supposing the PCBs are typically pretty large? I've never seen one, apart from the pics in the trade thread.

Good point also about the price. Not all are so bad.

And good point also about subtle differences in play. I suppose with my favorite games, I could see taking the plunge.

It just seems like it could be such a crap shoot. Getting a supergun that will in fact do what you want. I wouldn't know where to begin.

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:50 pm

professor ganson wrote:I'm not sure I understand the allure of PCBs without the cab. Yeah, it's your only option if it's a game that's not ported or emulated, but otherwise I don't quite get it. Why prefer a supergun over a console? They aren't more reliable/durable, they take up huge space, and they're incredibly expensive. Perhaps someone can help me out here. Is it mainly about collecting things that are of sentimental value or something along those lines?

I agree it's another matter entirely if you have a cabinet. Sadly, I don't see having room until the kids move out and I hardly want that to happen anytime soon. Plus, the money required would likely be prohibitive.

Why buy PCBs?

In my case, I only buy a PCB if there is no console port, or if I feel a port is too deficient for me to fully enjoy it.

I agree it's pointless to buy Battle Garegga or Radiant Silvergun PCBs if you already have a Saturn, and won't be playing them on a cab.

Aren't superguns and PCBs expensive?

Depends. Most superguns aren't any more expensive than some of the more exotic retro consoles, or an import slim PS2.
The average PCB price is around $100. New releases and Cave games are obviously gonna run you a lot more though. Just be patient and they'll drop in price eventually though. Besides, there's enough quality older titles to keep anybody happy, even on a budget.

Doesn't PCB gaming take up huge space?

It definitely takes up a bit more space than console gaming, but I wouldn't say it's excessive.

PCB size can vary a lot. Generally older games are larger, while the current gen. Cave PCBs are incredibly small (only about as big as a DVD case).

Isn't it pointless unless you have a cab?

There are actually many factors that speak for superguns and against cabs, eg:

- Superguns take up less space.

- Unless you have an Egret II cab it will be a huge pain in the ass to rotate the monitor just on a whim, and will likely require 2 people to do the job.

- You can't flexibly change between a 1-player and 2-player setup on a cab.

- You generally can't flexibly turn autofire on or off as you can with just a joystick + supergun setup.

Basically, cab-lovers are a whole different breed from merely game/PCB lovers. For them working on a cab, fixing it up and modifying it is just as much fun as playing games.
I just like games and hate anything technical, so just a supergun is perfect for me.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:01 pm

Reading with much interest. Thanks! I have been thinking about taking the plunge for some time, but have been especially worried about dealing with anything technical. I'm just not equipped to deal. I suppose an MVS would be a nice start; I just worry that everything is so well emulated that it doesn't make sense. Also, I have no idea how I would go about getting a working supergun or how to set things up. Seems like a lot could go wrong.

lawnspic · Post by **lawnspic** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:02 pm

wow this thread has brought up a lotta good points, where was this info before i went haywire, ha!. gonna have to post another setup thread when i get this up and running, now i have to play carpenter and mod my entetainment cabinet to child proof the new hardware, thanks guys for all your help, GREAT COMMUNITY HERE!!!

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:25 pm

professor ganson wrote:Reading with much interest. Thanks! I have been thinking about taking the plunge for some time, but have been especially worried about dealing with anything technical. I'm just not equipped to deal. I suppose an MVS would be a nice start; I just worry that everything is so well emulated that it doesn't make sense. Also, I have no idea how I would go about getting a working supergun or how to set things up. Seems like a lot could go wrong.

Basically the two big rules are:

- Never put the Jamma-connector on the wrong way around.

- Don't touch the PCB when it's turned on. (The current isn't strong enough to hurt you, but you could very much hurt the PCB by causing a short circuit)

MVS really is the best way to start, as it's user friendly, cheap, has a big game selection and outputs a very clean and standard video signal similar to a console. You are right though, that all MVS games are emulated.

Toaplan, Raizing and Cave PCBs have very good video signals as well, however some others, such as Konami and Seibu (Raiden Fighters) are notorious for having synch or color gain issues on regular TVs.

I wish I could give you more tips about what supergun to get, but superguns in the USA are a bit different than here in Europe. PCBs all output RGB, so for Europeans that makes it very simple to build and use superguns with their TVs. In America you need to do all kinds of complicated shit to convert the signal into AV or s-video (actually worse signals, picture-quality wise) and there's a whole range of different quality superguns. The other (better) way to go is to get an RGB setup, but in America that entails getting a special monitor, which in turns means more money to spend.

lawnspic · Post by **lawnspic** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:12 am

Mirkvid sold me one of the better SG's in the scene, a Matt Ross with S, RGB, and composite. I was pleased to know a quality video encoder was used and the S video is good. If i get a little more money i will get a Jrok w/component, but i might be satisfied with the S vid.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:18 am

Very helpful, CIT. I have a VGA input on my monitor (which is made to rotate). Would I be able to use this monitor for RGB input?

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:41 am

professor ganson wrote:Very helpful, CIT. I have a VGA input on my monitor (which is made to rotate). Would I be able to use this monitor for RGB input?

No, VGA is 31kHz (high res).

For a supergun with RGB you need a 15kHz monitor (low res).

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:58 am

OK, sounds like I would need one with S-video or component output. Definitely something to think over.

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:26 am

If you get a pro monitor, such as Sony PVM series, it will have a 15-pin analog RGB input or in some cases a European 21 pin scart socket.

I think there's also some component superguns, but I don't know enough about them. Usually component is used for highres signals though.

yojo! · Post by **yojo!** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:33 am

If you get a monitor make sure it supports low res (15khz) and medium res (25khz). 99.99% of jamma board output lowres but a few do medium.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:41 am

I see. Well, maybe I need a supergun with s-video output for my tated tv which I got for $100. Surely it's lowres; it doesn't even have component input.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:47 pm

ESP ra.de = 13" x 9.5" (very thin)

Galaga 88 = 14" x 11.5" x 2-3" high (its a double tiered PCB)

You have to remember that alot of the PCB's are actually enclosed. These include MVS, ST-V, Seibu, CPS2, CPS1 etc etc.

The latest Cave PCB's are actually tiny from what I've seen in pics. I'd like to see a comparison between say a Ketsui (and subsequent Cave PCB's) and an MVS cart. I only have ESP ra.de and its not that big.

Master O · Post by **Master O** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:12 pm

Just out of curiousity, how big are Konami PCBs, like Gradius, Parodius, and Thundercross?

Ozymandiaz1260 · Post by **Ozymandiaz1260** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:29 pm

neorichieb1971 wrote:I'd like to see a comparison between say a Ketsui (and subsequent Cave PCB's) and an MVS cart. I only have ESP ra.de and its not that big.

I'll try to get a picture comparing Ibara and an MVS cart for you later tonight.

Master O wrote:Just out of curiousity, how big are Konami PCBs, like Gradius, Parodius, and Thundercross?

I have TMNT and The Cowboys of Moo Mesa that I can put in the comparison pic, but I'm pretty sure that they use a newer board than the games you're talking about.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:42 pm

Is it just me, or are more people taking that plunge into PCBs?

I think it's b/c if you've been into shooters for awhile.... you've pretty much exhausted the library out on console. Now the newer ones and alot of older ones simply haven't or won't see a port. not to mention some ports suck.

If you want the new stuff or some unported stuff, you're pretty much left with no choice. Well other than mame but alot of new stuff is not emulated.

I think it boils down to necessity if you want to keep playing something new as the years go by. Otherwise you are just limited to whats already been put out.

If there is an awsome port like Arika's Cave ports, then I'd prefer that over a PCB. But that isn't always the case.

Ozymandiaz1260 · Post by **Ozymandiaz1260** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:58 pm

Ozymandiaz1260 wrote:
neorichieb1971 wrote:I'd like to see a comparison between say a Ketsui (and subsequent Cave PCB's) and an MVS cart. I only have ESP ra.de and its not that big.
I'll try to get a picture comparing Ibara and an MVS cart for you later tonight.

Master O wrote:Just out of curiousity, how big are Konami PCBs, like Gradius, Parodius, and Thundercross?
I have TMNT and The Cowboys of Moo Mesa that I can put in the comparison pic, but I'm pretty sure that they use a newer board than the games you're talking about.

Aliens, Ibara, and World Heroes.

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:05 am

Nice pic Ozman. I don't have any SH3 boards, the most recent Cave PCB I have is Ketsui which looks to be about twice the size of those SH3 boards.

Somebody post a pic of a CPS-2 :)

The old model CPS-1 is also pretty big. And I have a GunForce PCB which is another double-decker beast, larger than a CPS-2 I think.

And for Dr.Ganson, one MVS cart is smaller than a Wii, by about 1"x0.5"x0.5". It's all I have for reference at the moment.