Is Mushihimesama worth buying?

[sikraiken]

I never said you can replicate it. But it does come down to, if you do not use them, how you can best replicate it.

No. The point of default is to tap at the right frequency in the right places. Not that hard... With AUTOFIRE HACKS you can do this while increasing your counter MORE due to the asymmetric frequency (won't go into more datails, you can find everything here around). So 12Hz obtained with your hands doesn't bring you the same counter as 12Hz obtained with autofire hack. Never.

I don't think you understand BEST REPLICATE. "Typical LUNardei" ; )

The special autofire used by SWY is a third thing.

Which is absolute garbage.

PROME: by using the autofire hack settings in the port you can replicate the standard conditions of play in Japan (the land where games are taken like schoolwork). I'm quite sure that TGA-RET used a 5 buttons setup (ZOMG piano), the only difference is that his frequency for C+ was a bit different.
So this stuff is not so messy unless you don't want to just bitch about it. Or you don't want to beat the WR in Ultra mode via replicating the autofire hacks with your hands.

Actually, a mess is definitely the best way to put it. I tell it like it is.

And haha, I know you don't know that I played this game for a decent amount of time, but I'll let you know right now: I have more experience on Ultra than you, believe me.

Wow, this is sooo Sik-ish. Even if it's a bait... I want to know, eheh.

It was a couple years ago now. Whenever I get a disk again (legit JP, can't play burns) I'll take a picture. Or better yet, a video. You can have your Ultra until then. Yeah, typical sik. I'm just that great.

[Icarus]

So tell me then, what's the real difference between this:

It's a constant switch between 2-3 buttons, and if your timing is off in even a few points, or you don't milk the boss, the whole stage will suffer in score.

... where you can still score well even if you choose not to milk a boss, or attack a certain enemy with Lard Attack, or have timing that's just a tiny bit off (and you miss one big enemy worth say 10 pork medals), compared to:

Stage 1: Hold C. Tap on C a few times in the middle of the level to keep your chain. Try to keep a chaining route. That's it.
Stage 2: Hold C, get over those bush things and then tap C fast after a second or two. Get to the midboss, tap A slowly, then tap C as fast as you can after a few phases of bullets. Then hold C the rest of the level, tapping C fast if you stop on some more of those bushes for a second or two.
etc.

... where you really have no other choice but to learn to use specific buttons with specific tapping rhythms (!) if you want to score well, and one tiny mistime kills your score by quite a big amount? Where you actually have to learn to do a stage a certain way or you lose a lot of points? Where there is a certain rigidity to strategy?

Also, do you know why I find that Futari Maniac and MMP look and "feel" like Espgaluda's system, a system I have a preference to, while I find Mushi to be more along the lines of DDP and DOJ?

[sikraiken]

Also, do you know why I find that Futari Maniac and MMP look and "feel" like Espgaluda's system, a system I have a preference to, while I find Mushi to be more along the lines of DDP and DOJ?

While Mushi is more along the lines of DDP and DOJ, I must point out that DDP and DOJ is a real man's game, while Mushi is more of a real coward's game (if you actually enjoy playing it for score). ; )

[jpj]

[shoe-sama]

girly game

[LUNardei]

I don't think you understand BEST REPLICATE. "Typical LUNardei" ; )

Yes, yes, you're right etc.

It was a couple years ago now. Whenever I get a disk again (legit JP, can't play burns) I'll take a picture. Or better yet, a video. You can have your Ultra until then. Yeah, typical sik. I'm just that great.

Just tell me what you did in any way you prefer, no need to set up a release date or something to laugh about on irc.

[Twiddle]

irc illuminati

[sikraiken]

Just tell me what you did in any way you prefer, no need to set up a release date or something to laugh about on irc.

I prefer to show you when I have the proof. No need to let myself go through things I've been through before.



Final word on this game (my opinion): Just play Original mode for score, or Ultra to 1cc it.

[shoe-sama]

FALSIFICARE

[Rob]

I should've kept Mushi around for an extra week so I could've cleared Ultra. It sounds so easy.

[GaijinPunch]

Backtracking and semi off-topic, you guys that say they made a simple "tweak" to Galuda II are high. While the Zesshikai is the blatant addition, it adds layers of depth to the game. You now have to juggle two counters instead of one. That would be 2x the fun for those that can't figure out the remedial math. Then there's the differences in getting more gems which changes gameplay drastically.

[EOJ]

It's a constant switch between 2-3 buttons, and if your timing is off in even a few points, or you don't milk the boss, the whole stage will suffer in score.

... where you can still score well even if you choose not to milk a boss, or attack a certain enemy with Lard Attack, or have timing that's just a tiny bit off (and you miss one big enemy worth say 10 pork medals), compared to:

In most stages in MMP you cannot score well without milking a boss. And if your timing is off during a stage, it'll mess your in-stage score up big time. You have to time lard button presses just right in order to get enough pigs at the end of it needed to charge your meter up again for the successive lard attacks. If you're a bit off in even a few places, the result is quite cumulative. When you play it you'll see what I mean. There's a big difference between my scores (120mil-ish), and the people scoring 240+mil. It all comes down to boss milking and in-stage timing.

Stage 1: Hold C. Tap on C a few times in the middle of the level to keep your chain. Try to keep a chaining route. That's it.
Stage 2: Hold C, get over those bush things and then tap C fast after a second or two. Get to the midboss, tap A slowly, then tap C as fast as you can after a few phases of bullets. Then hold C the rest of the level, tapping C fast if you stop on some more of those bushes for a second or two.
etc.

... where you really have no other choice but to learn to use specific buttons with specific tapping rhythms (!) if you want to score well, and one tiny mistime kills your score by quite a big amount? Where you actually have to learn to do a stage a certain way or you lose a lot of points? Where there is a certain rigidity to strategy?

The "specific tapping rhythms" thing is really a very minor thing. When you have to press C as fast as possible, that's what you do. You don't count while you're doing it, you just hammer on the button and those who can press faster get a slightly higher multiplier. Technically, that requires very little "timing" or even "rhythm". You just slam your finger on the button over and over. And it only happens once or twice per level at most, usually just at the midbosses. The rhythmic parts come with the A button taps, but again, those are slow taps, and you only do that a couple times in a level as well.

People blow this "oh, you have to memorize all these BUTTON PRESSES, and it's so HARD and COMPLEX" stuff way out of proportion with Mushi. Again, if you play the game for score you'll realize it's not very complex, and the button presses come very intuitively. You don't count off the presses as you're doing it, no more than you think of the A, B, and C button presses in a MMP stage in your mind as you're playing it.

If you want a really complex scoring system that also involves really precise timing, play Galuda 2.

[Icarus]

People blow this "oh, you have to memorize all these BUTTON PRESSES, and it's so HARD and COMPLEX" stuff way out of proportion with Mushi. Again, if you play the game for score you'll realize it's not very complex, and the button presses come very intuitively. You don't count off the presses as you're doing it, no more than you think of the A, B, and C button presses in a MMP stage in your mind as you're playing it.

It's not just how complex the system is, it's also how intuitive it is, and how much room for error it gives you.. Taking MMP as an example, you're not completely forced into a routine for scoring, and like Espgaluda, unless you're pushing for a top-tier score, you have a certain amount of freedom for scoring strategy. Sure, mistake effects can be cumulative, but it's not on a scale of something like Daioujou or Mushi, where a restrictive system combined with stage-long chaining becomes a recipe for disaster for imperfect play.

The "specific tapping rhythms" thing is really a very minor thing.

Minor or not, it's an extra complication on top of an already irritating system. When ignoring the Bemani-style button pressing, the system is fine, and a little easier to work with compared to a 'Pachi since the chain isn't completely cut off when you make a mistake. But any attempt at point-squeezing requires some strange jumping-through-hoops. You might denounce the fact that autofire can improve scoreplay in Mushi, but it is a fact that for serious scoreplay, you need some weird things done to your game, things that may or may not be available to you.

Mushi, funnily enough, is one of the few games for me that is fun to play when ignoring score. Problem being, that I always end up playing it for score at some point, which is when the irritation comes.

If you want a really complex scoring system that also involves really precise timing, play Galuda 2.

There's another game I realised I wouldn't enjoy. Looks great, but nah, not my flavour.
Which makes me glad I didn't go looking for one in the end.

[Arvandor]

Mushi, funnily enough, is one of the few games for me that is fun to play when ignoring score. Problem being, that I always end up playing it for score at some point, which is when the irritation comes.

Yay! I'm not the only one!

I love playing Mushi, but I have to ignore the scoring system. I basically treat it like a Donpachi for scoring, and don't worry about counter manipulation on midbosses, the 1up head of stage 3, and whatnot.

However, this is one of those pointless preference arguments. Some people love the strict, and rote memorization of DDP (like I currently do), and some hate it (like Rob). Mushi is another one of those things. Some people will find the system very genius, refreshing, challenging, and fun (hi TWE), and others won't (*pokes Icarus*).

Auto-fire changes the game, but doesn't break it. Splitting the scoreboards is the perfect solution, and I see no problems with that at all.

I actually prefer a relatively straightforward scoring system like Mushi to something like in Battle Garegga where you need to know stupid tricks like suiciding into a blimp at just the right angle so that you take out all the turrets without killing the blimp or some nonsense like that. In Garegga it's not so much about being good at the game as it is knowing the game inside and out. Garegga actually has insane amounts of memorization (more than most shooters, if you sit down and think about it), it just carefully hides the fact behind a free-style-esque medal-chaining system.

It's not just how complex the system is, it's also how intuitive it is, and how much room for error it gives you.

Garegga, again, has some very intuitive elements; but it also has some of the most counter-intuitive elements a shooter has ever seen. If playing for score, your room for error isn't exactly big either given how crippling missing a medal is, and how easy it is to miss a medal unless you have the item drop order memorized. Plus there are probably some other scoring tricks that don't give you much room for error, and I just don't know about them (as I've not played Garegga a whole lot... just enough to know I'm not a big fan).

/Garegga rant

[GaijinPunch]

it's also how intuitive it is,

Like smashing your ship into another one to make lower the difficulty?

and how much room for error it gives you..

Mushi & DOJ are night and day. Mushi isn't nearly as hard as DOJ (talking Maniac here) which means less muck ups, and even if your timing is off, you will only lose X% of your chain...not the whole damn thing b/c you you were two pixels too far to the right.

[wiNteR]

In Garegga it's not so much about being good at the game as it is knowing the game inside and out. Garegga actually has insane amounts of memorization (more than most shooters, if you sit down and think about it), it just carefully hides the fact behind a free-style-esque medal-chaining system.

You are confusing memorization with strategy.

I think memorizing stuff is a pain in the ass in every single shmup and is the biggest flaw of the genre.

Its important to discuss this point because its repeated so many times.

Let me say that I don't agree with this. It depends on how you choose to see it. But lets clear one important point first which, I suppose, you are already aware of. Every genre gets more restrictive when you get better in it. Yes, shooting games possibly get more restrictive but this is just the nature of the games (maybe some comparison can be made to racing games). You also can't neglect that, generally speaking, you need less randomness to standardize a score. Otherwise, it would lead to an unfair game.

The other thing is that you can view skill in two different ways. First is that you play the hell out of one game to maximise your score. You work out your techniques, experiment with all possibilities and learn the obscure strategies. I think this is similar to most other genres. But, on the other hand, you can also pickup a game you haven't played before and see how quickly you score on it or clear it. Obviously, method of practice plays an important role. I suppose the order of difficulty would be:
1) no continuing
2) credit feeding
3) stage select/save states
The last one is particularly easy compared to the other two in my opinion. I believe both views of skill are valid in their own right.

[shoe-sama]

In Garegga it's not so much about being good at the game as it is knowing the game inside and out. Garegga actually has insane amounts of memorization (more than most shooters, if you sit down and think about it), it just carefully hides the fact behind a free-style-esque medal-chaining system.

You are confusing memorization with strategy.

Have you even played Garegga?

[PROMETHEUS]

In my opinion Mushihimesama takes what DoDonPachi established to the next level.

This sounds right to me, for this reason :

Mushi & DOJ are night and day. Mushi isn't nearly as hard as DOJ (talking Maniac here) which means less muck ups, and even if your timing is off, you will only lose X% of your chain...not the whole damn thing b/c you you were two pixels too far to the right.

It's just a great evolution. Dodonpachi has chaining to prevent the player from killing everything on sight C-S style and not dodge a bullet. Mushihimesama's chaining has the same qualities without the biggest Dodonpachi flaws, mainly the stupid chain cut if you're 1 frame late.

And if the button presses aren't so horrible to learn like EOJ described... then it sounds great to me. Unless your score gets cut in half if your rhythm is a few frames off -_-;; Then we're kind of back to Dodonpachi's flaw.

[RGC]

.

[PROMETHEUS]

As with any other game, the ones who dedicate the hours of learning tend to come out on top, don't they?

Obviously ? Like every single other thing you can be good at in life ?

[EOJ]

And if the button presses aren't so horrible to learn like EOJ described...

They aren't horrible to learn. All you really have to do is learn a couple different tapping techniques, then you'll intuitively get a feel for when to use them in a level after playing a bit.

Unless your score gets cut in half if your rhythm is a few frames off -_-;;

No, it doesn't. Again, the main rhythmic thing you have to do in the game is just tap A slowly on midbosses and other large enemies to jack up your main counter.

You do have to chain though. The nice thing is if you drop your chain a bit, or die somewhere, it's not too hard to boost your counter right back up, at least if you die before the midboss. There are some parts where if you die, you're pretty much screwed. Like the second half of Stage 5, after the midboss.

[RGC]

.

[ST Dragon]

I've always been put off by this game because I hear it's a bit of a standard Cave game(not one of their better ones), and is sort of a slightly different version of DoDonPachi.

However, i'm getting pretty hungry for something NEW, that I haven't played and am thinking about getting it.

Is it fun? Worth buying? Or should I save my money and pick up some Double U albums instead?(just kidding!)

s/m

Excellent 2D graphics and music and huge Bad-ass Bosses, but I would suggest that you try it before you buy it!

[Aquas]

In support of mushi's highly complex rhythmic button tapping dance dance revolution moves, tapping the buttons and dodging takes some real dexterity I find. Real good shmup skill training. Because often I'll be tapping C to skyrocket the counters and get nailed by a purple piece of shit.

Plus, skyrotting and maintaining the counter feels good till it drops or you die, as a player who solely plays Maniac mode to score.

[RGC]

.

[jpj]

to sum up: if you want a good score, you either need a machine to do the work for you. or if you think that's shit, you need to give yourself premature arthritis, like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V01CmSd59Fc

if neither of those appeal to you, play a better game.

[djvinc]

I love this game, IMO everyone should own it on PS2, and if you are in love wth it like myself, go for the PCB version, which has better graphics, and..."runs better" (if this has a meaning).
Sadly, it's expensive, so I regret putting so much money in a game like I have for this one, but I don't regret owning it

[GaijinPunch]

to sum up: if you want a good score, you either need a machine to do the work for you. or if you think that's shit, you need to give yourself premature arthritis, like this:

That's all you got out of this thread? ::?

[PROMETHEUS]

ye that's a pretty narrow minded analysis jpj

it's funny, i think sometimes if a person has convincd themselves of something, they find it hard to accept anything else.

[jpj]

i don't follow you at all. i've owned the game for two years, and talking about empirical knowledge. how many credits of maniac have you played again prometheus...?