Is Mushihimesama worth buying?

[Twiddle]

The "horrible scoring discrepancy" is what smells like trolling and is definitely something worth some random letters. Bgsrsrrrrrggg!!!1

I didn't know the truth is trolling but this is AEX for you

[EOJ]

2) Why should I devote my time to a system that I despise just to appease people like yourself who reckon that people who dislike the system don't understand it and must suck at it? Also, agreeing with SiK, you don't need to be good at a system to know what's wrong with it.

Perhaps it was poorly worded, but I was just commenting that, from what I could see in this thread, essentially no one who is good at Mushi Maniac mode bashes its scoring or gameplay system. Not true with many other games. And I don't expect people to learn a system they can tell from the get-go they will not like.

Basically I just encourage everyone to try the game for themselves (and read up on the complex scoring system before you do). If it doesn't float your boat, whatever. There are plenty of other games out there to try.

[Zebra Airforce]

Maniac took the beautiful and complex bullet patterns from all the previous Cave games and threw them out, replacing them with straight walls of bullets and cloudspam...

[jpj]

i actually like asperges syndrome chain-'em-ups, and cut my teeth on silvergun, ikaruga, doj, etc. but the huge benefit obtained from auto-fire hacks kinda kills it for me.

and i don't condone self-inflicted arthritis

[DirtyMonk]

I hate needle bullets as much as Indy hates snakes.

[EOJ]

I can see that the system appeals to a certain kind of player that likes to memorise and execute specific things at specific times; but for me, my enjoyment of systems like that have long since faded away.

I don't think you'd like Mushi Futari's Maniac mode then either. It's even more about "memorizing and executing specific things at specific times". Then again, so is MMP. So you should probably scratch that one off your list as well.

[Twiddle]

Perhaps the same could be said of all stgus (ShooTing Games in japanesu)

only the difference in time required to pull off scoring maneuvers is measured in seconds in those games as opposed to frames and you don't have to hurt your hand doing it playing it "properly"

[LUNardei]

If you don't use the autofire hacks, then your scores can be inflated if you have the crazy precision of being able to exactly replicate what they do.

Ehr... To know what's wrong in a system you don't need to be good at it, you need to know it

About this:

There are other games in which you can score better with a normal autofire (it's not even necessary to think about alien technology). It doesn't matter if it's 12% or 65% more, it's the same damn concept.

I can't write it in an easier way for Twiddle, sorry

I can see that the system appeals to a certain kind of player

Isn't it enough?
And aren't shmups a lot about memorization? Geez, sure Raizing games are better in this aspect, but still I won't say whether a game is crap or not basing my opinion on this. Which is basically what this topic is all about, lol. Personal opinions often based on lack of knowledge (see above) are ok as opinions. Nothing more.

[sikraiken]

...when getting the highest possible score comes down to if I can memorize how to hit a button(s) at a certain rate at certain precise intervals at certain points of time in the game.

And if you are really into that type of thing, then go play a rhythm-based video game instead.

[Icarus]

I don't think you'd like Mushi Futari's Maniac mode then either. It's even more about "memorizing and executing specific things at specific times". Then again, so is MMP. So you should probably scratch that one off your list as well.

Wow! You're right! Futari Maniac is almost as anally retentive when it comes to scoring as Mushi Maniac is! Phew, almost wasted 120,000Y on a kit there, thanks for saving my credit card some pain.

And MMP! OMG! A system freeform enough to let me pick and choose what enemies to blast with the Lard Attack is exactly the same as Mushi Maniac, where I not only have to know what to hit and when to hit it, but I actually have to know how many times a second I have to hit a certain button when I do it, otherwise I lose hundreds off a potential chain per split second from missing a counter bank!

"Memorizing and executing specific things at specific times" applies to every shooting game every made. But not to the extent that Mushi takes it.

[EOJ]

And if you are really into that type of thing, then go play a rhythm-based video game instead.

But that's the whole appeal of Mushi! You get to do stuff similar to rhythm-based games, but while dodging bullets and blowing up big bugs.

[jpj]

Point taken, if you're not having any fun, don't play the game.
I wonder how widespread this was in Japan, as I doubt Cave would have completely changed Maniac mode for futari unless people complained about the original game. It's the first time a Cave sequel has ever used a completely different scoring system.

[shoe-sama]

hey guys whats teh best autofire rate for the counter transfer glitch thing

guys guys someone answer my question plz i wanna get good at this game

[sikraiken]

If you don't use the autofire hacks, then your scores can be inflated if you have the crazy precision of being able to exactly replicate what they do.

Ehr... To know what's wrong in a system you don't need to be good at it, you need to know it :rolleyes:

About this:

There are other games in which you can score better with a normal autofire (it's not even necessary to think about alien technology). It doesn't matter if it's 12% or 65% more, it's the same damn concept.

I can't write it in an easier way for Twiddle, sorry

I can see that the system appeals to a certain kind of player

Isn't it enough?
And aren't shmups a lot about memorization? Geez, sure Raizing games are better in this aspect, but still I won't say whether a game is crap or not basing my opinion on this. Which is basically what this topic is all about, lol. Personal opinions often based on lack of knowledge (see above) are ok as opinions. Nothing more.

And I'm wrong, how? I have opinion in my post (" A game that does this kind of stuff, in my opinion, is garbage for scoring." "I'm not interested in...") What I said in that post is exactly in general terms what you need to do to score the highest. That part is fact. And it is correct.

[LUNardei]

But not to the extent that Mushi takes it.

DOJ?

Anyway, at the next "is Mushi any good/worth buying" I'll answer NO. Go against the power of irc is too much for me

[PROMETHEUS]

If you don't use the autofire hacks, then your scores can be inflated if you have the crazy precision of being able to exactly replicate what they do. That's all it comes down to. A game that does this kind of stuff, in my opinion, is garbage for scoring.

If that's your opinion, obviously you are among the people who would choose to play with autofire, and then the problem is gone...

I said earlier in this thread, this game is fun if you don't take score that seriously. If you take score very seriously...well. I'm not interested in getting really good at a game when getting the highest possible score comes down to if I can memorize how to hit a button(s) at a certain rate at certain precise intervals at certain points of time in the game. There are much better games out there to get better at.

Obviously in Ultra, scoring high doesn't come down to just that... it takes crazy dodging skills. However you have a point : why add button presses to what has to be memorized to score high ? I think memorizing stuff is a pain in the ass in every single shmup and is the biggest flaw of the genre. So stressing memorization in a scoring system... is good only if it's necessary to reward skill even more, or does something else that is a major plus.

[LUNardei]

And I'm wrong, how?

If you don't use the autofire hacks, then your scores can be inflated if you have the crazy precision of being able to exactly replicate what they do.

You don't have to replicate autofire hacks because with your hands you just can't. Probably this is why you see "autofire hacks" as a tool of devil instead of another way to play the game.

I have opinion in my post (" A game that does this kind of stuff, in my opinion, is garbage for scoring." "I'm not interested in...") What I said in that post is exactly in general terms what you need to do to score the highest. That part is fact. And it is correct.

Your opinion is fine, and in general you know how the game works, obviously. To scream out loud that a game is bad/broken and to jump at the people defending it (people with more knowdledge and experience than you have) is just silly. Not pointing my finger at you, it's just the general trend.

[Twiddle]

But not to the extent that Mushi takes it.

DOJ?

Anyway, at the next "is Mushi any good/worth buying" I'll answer NO. Go against the power of irc is too much for me

IRC ILLUMINATI

[sikraiken]

If you don't use the autofire hacks, then your scores can be inflated if you have the crazy precision of being able to exactly replicate what they do. That's all it comes down to. A game that does this kind of stuff, in my opinion, is garbage for scoring.

If that's your opinion, obviously you are among the people who would choose to play with autofire, and then the problem is gone...

No, the problem would not just disappear. The first problem is that this problem actually exists. The second problem is that either way you go (no autofire, or autofire hacks) you have this stupid scoring system that involves tapping buttons at exact certain rates in exact certain intervals at certain points of time. After you actually get past this, the third problem is that if you do decide to deal with the autofire hacks, it's not like it's as simple as just using them. They have to actually be created, you have to know what's the optimal settings for each rate/cycle, and you have to know when to use each based on when it's optimal to use them. It's ridiculous. It is impossible to beat the arcadia record with only simple autofire hacks.

I said earlier in this thread, this game is fun if you don't take score that seriously. If you take score very seriously...well. I'm not interested in getting really good at a game when getting the highest possible score comes down to if I can memorize how to hit a button(s) at a certain rate at certain precise intervals at certain points of time in the game. There are much better games out there to get better at.

Obviously in Ultra, scoring high doesn't come down to just that... it takes crazy dodging skills. However you have a point : why add button presses to what has to be memorized to score high ? I think memorizing stuff is a pain in the ass in every single shmup and is the biggest flaw of the genre. So stressing memorization in a scoring system... is good only if it's necessary to reward skill even more, or does something else that is a major plus.

No, it doesn't come down to just that, but that's what it eventually comes down to when you can get through the entire mode. Memorization on some level is part of every game, it cannot be avoided.

[EOJ]

"Memorizing and executing specific things at specific times" applies to every shooting game every made.

Yes, that was my point.

But not to the extent that Mushi takes it.

Explain this "extent" please. "Memorizing and executing specific things at specific times" does not include any reference to button Hz. So please explain how Mushi takes it to a greater "extent" than Futari or MMP (two games you haven't even played, but whatever).

[Icarus]

But not to the extent that Mushi takes it.

DOJ?

I can see that the system appeals to a certain kind of player

Isn't it enough?
And aren't shmups a lot about memorization? Geez, sure Raizing games are better in this aspect, but still I won't say whether a game is crap or not basing my opinion on this. Which is basically what this topic is all about, lol. Personal opinions often based on lack of knowledge (see above) are ok as opinions. Nothing more.

Explain this "extent" please. "Memorizing and executing specific things at specific times" does not include any reference to button Hz. So please explain how Mushi takes it to a greater "extent" than Futari or MMP (two games you haven't even played, but whatever).

Last reply to thread.

First, that depends on how much memorisation is required.

Memorising simple things to get through stages is fine for me, such as dealing with certain attack patterns, or the occurence of particular trap sections. There is a certain level of memorisation that leaves me cold, however, and that level is displayed by the likes of Daioujou and Mushi. Whereas a few years ago I would have been all over systems like this (and with some games, I was), where rote memorisation of exact timing and execution is key to success in games, at some point between then and now I loaded up a game that exhibits this kind of style, played it for a few minutes and thought to myself "What the fuck am I doing? This isn't fun any more."

Playing Guwange for the AEX Cup earlier this year really drove that point home for me. I still adore Guwange for it's styling and design, but the system makes me want to punch holes in walls.

I played Dodonpachi to death, learned Daioujou via Hyperless play, and adore Guwange. But because of the systems they use, I no longer want to touch any of them ever again.

Second, I base my opinions on experience with the system. I was one of the few that was discussing the game at Click's forum. I helped compile the first basic FAQ for the game, which admittedly is now somewhat factually incorrect, but back then served as a somewhat decent beginner's guide. I played the PCB quite a bit (friend bought it on release), and tried to get back into it with the PS2 release. And like DDP, DOJ etc, I would have adored it a long time ago, but now the system leaves me cold, and I don't like any of the other modes to give it a second glance.

Finally, to EOJ, I don't have to play a system to see if it fits my tastes. I can see that MMP is less on exact timing and execution compared to Mushi, and that fact alone is why I want to play it. Also, see above.

[PROMETHEUS]

If you don't use the autofire hacks, then your scores can be inflated if you have the crazy precision of being able to exactly replicate what they do. That's all it comes down to. A game that does this kind of stuff, in my opinion, is garbage for scoring.

If that's your opinion, obviously you are among the people who would choose to play with autofire, and then the problem is gone...

No, the problem would not just disappear. The first problem is that this problem actually exists. The second problem is that either way you go (no autofire, or autofire hacks) you have this stupid scoring system that involves tapping buttons at exact certain rates in exact certain intervals at certain points of time. After you actually get past this, the third problem is that if you do decide to deal with the autofire hacks, it's not like it's as simple as just using them. They have to actually be created, you have to know what's the optimal settings for each rate/cycle, and you have to know when to use each based on when it's optimal to use them. It's ridiculous. It is impossible to beat the arcadia record with only simple autofire hacks.

ok that's a good point then, didn't know the autofires where so messy to deal with.

I'd add though, you guys have a good reason to dislike the scoring system because you don't like to have to learn rhythms and stuff, but I don't think it makes the system garbage because even though it emphasizes memorization even more and that sucks, it also does reward your precision and rhythms skills and it's a little like mixing rhythm video games with shmups and it can be cool. That's depending on whether you are interested in developping those skills or not.

[sikraiken]

And I'm wrong, how?

If you don't use the autofire hacks, then your scores can be inflated if you have the crazy precision of being able to exactly replicate what they do.

You don't have to replicate autofire hacks because with your hands you just can't. Probably this is why you see "autofire hacks" as a tool of devil instead of another way to play the game.

I never said you can replicate it. But it does come down to, if you do not use them, how you can best replicate it.

I have opinion in my post (" A game that does this kind of stuff, in my opinion, is garbage for scoring." "I'm not interested in...") What I said in that post is exactly in general terms what you need to do to score the highest. That part is fact. And it is correct.

Your opinion is fine, and in general you know how the game works, obviously. To scream out loud that a game is bad/broken and to jump at the people defending it (people with more knowdledge and experience than you have) is just silly. Not pointing my finger at you, it's just the general trend.

Who's screaming? : ) Also, This is a thread about Is Mushihimesama worth buying. I'm defending my stance on that's it's a horrible game to play seriously for score. "Stop jumping at me" when I'm defending it : ( : (

And haha, I know you don't know that I played this game for a decent amount of time, but I'll let you know right now: I have more experience on Ultra than you, believe me.

[Rob]

I have more experience on Ultra than you, believe me.

Viewpoint-kill

[EOJ]

[

Finally, to EOJ, I don't have to play a system to see if it fits my tastes. I can see that MMP is less on exact timing and execution compared to Mushi, and that fact alone is why I want to play it.

See, that's the thing. I personally can't tell things like that just from vids. MMP looks to be less about timing, but when I started playing I soon realized it's really all about exact timing. For example, getting 10K medals fast in stage 1 requires *perfect* timing when switching back and forth between A and B.

Of course I understand you're just really talking about Mushi's button Hz here, but if timing is the issue, MMP is far more demanding of it than Mushi. I mean, come on. Look at how you have to play a Mushi stage:

Stage 1: Hold C. Tap on C a few times in the middle of the level to keep your chain. Try to keep a chaining route. That's it.
Stage 2: Hold C, get over those bush things and then tap C fast after a second or two. Get to the midboss, tap A slowly, then tap C as fast as you can after a few phases of bullets. Then hold C the rest of the level, tapping C fast if you stop on some more of those bushes for a second or two.
etc.

Not very complicated at all.

But for MMP or Futari? It's a constant switch between 2-3 buttons, and if your timing is off in even a few points, or you don't milk the boss, the whole stage will suffer in score.

[LUNardei]

I never said you can replicate it. But it does come down to, if you do not use them, how you can best replicate it.

No. The point of default is to tap at the right frequency in the right places. Not that hard... With AUTOFIRE HACKS you can do this while increasing your counter MORE due to the asymmetric frequency (won't go into more datails, you can find everything here around). So 12Hz obtained with your hands doesn't bring you the same counter as 12Hz obtained with autofire hack. Never.

The special autofire used by SWY is a third thing.

PROME: by using the autofire hack settings in the port you can replicate the standard conditions of play in Japan (the land where games are taken like schoolwork). I'm quite sure that TGA-RET used a 5 buttons setup (ZOMG piano), the only difference is that his frequency for C+ was a bit different.
So this stuff is not so messy unless you don't want to just bitch about it. Or you don't want to beat the WR in Ultra mode via replicating the autofire hacks with your hands.

And haha, I know you don't know that I played this game for a decent amount of time, but I'll let you know right now: I have more experience on Ultra than you, believe me.

Wow, this is sooo Sik-ish. Even if it's a bait... I want to know, eheh.

[sikraiken]

Look at how you have to play a Mushi stage:

Stage 1: Hold C. Tap on C a few times in the middle of the level to keep your chain. Try to keep a chaining route. That's it.
Stage 2: Hold C, get over those bush things and then tap C fast after a second or two. Get to the midboss, tap A slowly, then tap C as fast as you can after a few phases of bullets. Then hold C the rest of the level, tapping C fast if you stop on some more of those bushes for a second or two.
etc.

Well yeah, if you aren't going for anywhere near an optimal score, sure...

[LUNardei]

Not very complicated at all.

Agreed. Memorization in Mushi is overrated.

[EOJ]

Look at how you have to play a Mushi stage:

Stage 1: Hold C. Tap on C a few times in the middle of the level to keep your chain. Try to keep a chaining route. That's it.
Stage 2: Hold C, get over those bush things and then tap C fast after a second or two. Get to the midboss, tap A slowly, then tap C as fast as you can after a few phases of bullets. Then hold C the rest of the level, tapping C fast if you stop on some more of those bushes for a second or two.
etc.

Well yeah, if you aren't going for anywhere near an optimal score, sure...

If you want to get an optimal score the only additional thing you do is Hold C and tap A instead of hold C in the parts I wrote above. Of course you need a chaining route in each stage, like DDP.

[shoe-sama]

hey guys i can use just program a bot to play the game 4 me rite?