World's Greatest Shmup Player - Part 2

[Zebra Airforce]

How, exactly, was it set up last time?

How many plays did each player get at a game?
How were the scores validated?
What games did you play?
What consoles are available?
What games are available to use?
Are you willing to buy new games?
How long is the contest?

[jp]

We could just discuss that in this thread.


If you're going to have such a tournament, I'd say to avoid two things:
1. Overly complex scoring systems. Since if someone knows the system and someone else doesn't, then... its not going to be fair at all.
2. Memorization fests - Ditto. Not very fun playing a game you have to memorize for the first time in a competition.


I'd say some good ones would be:
Thunder Force AC
Soukyuugurentai
Lifeforce/Salamander
Damn near anything by Toaplan (Fire Shark would be good. I'd say "no" to Batsugun since MOST of the score in that game comes from one trick).
Under Defeat
Hell, just for fun Space Invaders.
etc.

I'm sure other people could think of better stuff. Caravan modes in PC-Engine games (not sure what all ones have it) would be really good too. But definitely stay away from the likes of Border Down, Battle Garegga, Radiant Silvergun, etc. unless you're just playing for fun.

[Icarus]

Tell everyone what -- if you are interested in helping formulate a plan for this, regardless of where you are, either post or PM me and we can set up an email list to run through it all. If there isn't much interest, I'll take that as a sign. If there is, we can ensure that the tournament will be fair, fun and I will plan on doing it again.

Now that is smarter thinking.

Well, for one thing, you'd probably want to steer clear of anything that isn't an arcade game, near arcade-perfect port, or emulation of an arcade machine. Console-based shooting games generally are broken, not usually well suited to scoring competitions, and often come with a billion exploits. Ones usually involving putting a brick on the fire button, sitting in a specific spot and then going off to the pub for a few hours while the score counter racks up.

There are some exceptions to that rule, though.

[Zebra Airforce]

If you're going to have such a tournament, I'd say to avoid two things:
1. Overly complex scoring systems. Since if someone knows the system and someone else doesn't, then... its not going to be fair at all.
2. Memorization fests - Ditto. Not very fun playing a game you have to memorize for the first time in a competition.

Every scoring system is about memorization, though. Since he's thinking about releasing the list of games ahead of time I think it would be fair to put in something like Garegga or DoDonpachi even though they require some dedication to score well.

EDIT: My opinion might change depending on how many attempts a player can make.

[goatdan]

How, exactly, was it set up last time?

The full details are here:

http://www.midwestgamingclassic.com/con ... gspt-rules

A short overview will be provided with my other answers:

How many plays did each player get at a game?

During qualifying, you get as many as you will pay for entries. It was $5 for one entry, or $10 for three. There are five games that you can score on, with the top player getting 10 points down to 1 for the 10th place player. When the qualifying is over, the top 9 players advance -- the top player gets a bye, and the other 8 then compete for the remaining three slots.

This is the point where the competition really heats up. It's do or die -- with only ONE round to play, each player plays on three additional games and then has their scores added up in the same way as above. The top three scorers move on to the finals. This was modified slightly from what the official rules say, as we thought it would play better (it seemed to).

The finals are four players on four games. The person who had the bye gets to pick one game of the five to throw out and not compete on. The other four games everybody gets one run on them. At the end of your one run, the scores are tallied versus each other. Top scorer wins.

In the case of a tie, the players who are tied play the eliminated game to break the tie.

How were the scores validated?

When the run is over, a tournament judge records them on a sheet of paper.

What games did you play?

I don't have the game list offhand, but they are in the original thread. The game that we screwed ourselves on (or didn't have the right rules for) was Blazing Lazers last year, which was a finals game and took literally the entire afternoon.

We want to fix that, as it just wasn't quite right. The thought was that instead of beating the entire game, on games like this it would be playing through only one level and then getting your score.

From watching much of what went on last year, the game that seemed to be the best for this was probably Demon Attack for the 2600. So extremely simple, and so highly competitive because of it. That's why I think that announcing the games beforehand would help.

What consoles are available?

Honestly, if you can name it, it is probably at the show and available for use. We specifically tried to pick more common consoles though because it levels the playing field a little more. If only one person owns a console and knows a game on it, it really un-evens the field.

What games are available to use?

It depends. Anything in the store I run (the GOAT Store) or anything that I can borrow from someone else at the show, which honestly is probably nearly anything ever made.

Are you willing to buy new games?

Yes if necessary, although again -- I would rather use a slightly more common game to even the field.

How long is the contest?

Qualifying last year was all day Saturday and two hours on Sunday, with finals starting at 1:00.

[goatdan]

We could just discuss that in this thread.

I'm totally and completely fine with this. That was my intention with the first post.

If you're going to have such a tournament, I'd say to avoid two things:
1. Overly complex scoring systems. Since if someone knows the system and someone else doesn't, then... its not going to be fair at all.
2. Memorization fests - Ditto. Not very fun playing a game you have to memorize for the first time in a competition.

Actually, and I'm going to agree with the next poster momentarily, in a competition with the games announced beforehand I think it would be okay to have one or the other. I think number 1 actually works much better in competition than number 2, as long as the first game isn't complex and complicated. If it is a relatively simple memorization fest, then everyone's scores will be rather similar, which defeats the purpose.

[goatdan]

Now that is smarter thinking.

That's what I basically said in my first post though, before everyone started complaining -- I was specifically asking for input into ideas!

Well, for one thing, you'd probably want to steer clear of anything that isn't an arcade game, near arcade-perfect port, or emulation of an arcade machine. Console-based shooting games generally are broken, not usually well suited to scoring competitions, and often come with a billion exploits. Ones usually involving putting a brick on the fire button, sitting in a specific spot and then going off to the pub for a few hours while the score counter racks up.

There are some exceptions to that rule, though.

That would be okay by me. Again -- While I have fun playing some of these games, I am *no* expert at them. Tell me what you think about a game, and I will try it myself and generally trust your opinions!

[goatdan]

Oh, one last random note:

The event is named the Midwest Gaming Classic. This does not mean that all the games should be really old. The definition of classic that we use comes from my cousin, who in 2001 when I would have asked him what game he thought was a classic would have said Sonic Adventure.

Having said that, we purposely tried last year to spread out the games by era a bit. Having five Genesis or Dreamcast or PS2 shmups wouldn't be all encompassing. I would like to do the same thing this coming year.

I would also like to spread out the types a bit. I would rather not do all the same types, as especially if we are announcing this beforehand, it would cause the competitors to need to learn and master lots of different styles of play.

And, at least for this year, I do plan on only using consoles. At some point in the future, we may start using arcade machines too, or just arcade machines, but I don't have the time to repair and ready a bunch of games, nor do I have the money to get them right now.

[Arvandor]

I think you should blend your two options as far as game announcement goes. Announce a certain number of what games are going to be played for certain, and then keep another number secret until the event. This will give people a chance to prepare for some games and not go in blind, but it will still maintain the surprise, let's see how versatile you are element as well.

[Boric]

Dan,

I travelled the long distance last year to MGC last year to finally some of my good online friends associated with Team Fremont. The Midwest Gaming Classic show itself was great and well worth the nearly 1,000 mile drive from Alabama on it's own. Knowing that there was a Shmup Tournament there was just icing.

Heck I almost conned myself out of even trying the tournament but I'm glad I did in the end. (though the fact that some games lasted way too long was the only serious downfall)

I agree with Arvandor. There should be some games we can practice on beforehand, and some kept secret. The secrecy last year definitely was intriguing, because I got to attempt many games I had not experienced before, only having the advantage of seeing others play to get a decent idea of any special mechanics. However, not knowing some games others did know also put me at a disadvantage at times. So I think a healthy blend of the two would work best.

The tiebreaker battle with Postman on Demon Attack was definitely intense! And the competition itself had a great intensity around it. With only one chance per game in the later rounds, you had to question taking risks for a higher score, or playing it safe. And it was an absolute blast.

Anyhow, 99% chance I will be making the long drive up there again in March for the MGC. And hopefully this year I'll give it a try on more tournaments like the Pinball one, in addition to the Shmup tourney. I'm definitely looking forward to competing with DJI and others once again.

Sorry for rambling a bit!
Boric (Eric)

[Arvandor]

As for long games like Blazing Lazers that take forever. Doesn't it have a Caravan mode? Or basically a timed score attack? You could include one or two caravan games in your lineup. Caravan events were pretty huge in Japan, if I'm not mistaken.

[Sonic R]

As for long games like Blazing Lazers that take forever. Doesn't it have a Caravan mode? Or basically a timed score attack? You could include one or two caravan games in your lineup. Caravan events were pretty huge in Japan, if I'm not mistaken.

The USA Blazing Lazers for Turbo Grafx 16 did not contain caravan mode However Super Star Soldier and Soldier Blade did have them
Caravan games are great games for a short competition.

[Arvandor]

Ahhh, for some reason I always get Soldier Blade and Blazing Lazers confused =/ Haven't played enough of either I guess.

[Icarus]

@goatdan
1) If you plan on using console games, make sure you vet them to ensure that they are suitable for a scoring competition, and that they don't contain any exploits. Console-only stuff like Soldier Blade might seem nice, but they often contain game-breaking tricks.
Wouldn't mind seeing people compete on something like Zanac Neo, however.
Also, Caravan Modes in some really old games are okay for short competitions. You might want to give players more chances on Caravan Modes though, since they're quite short. (Get Recca!)

2) If you plan on using consoles games, perhaps take a look at arcade ports. Some ports are pretty complex and might be difficult for most in scoring competitions (like Border Down, Dodonpachi Daioujou or Garegga, three games of which require lots of practice and foreknowledge), but you can find some decent games like G.Darius, Raiden 3 or DX, Strikers 1945 II, and many others that are suitable.

3) Maybe consider arcade emulation as well, if using multiple arcade cabs or supergun setups is too costly. MAME comes with high score saving which will make record-keeping easier. All you'd need is a PC, a big monitor and a decent joystick setup. Or you can use a PC-in-a-cab.
Heck, if you really want to promote future competitions to the many online shooting game communities, perhaps use MAME's input recording function and distribute the top scoring replays to the public.

[goatdan]

Great suggestions all, thanks One quick thing to say...

@goatdan
1) If you plan on using console games, make sure you vet them to ensure that they are suitable for a scoring competition, and that they don't contain any exploits. Console-only stuff like Soldier Blade might seem nice, but they often contain game-breaking tricks.
Wouldn't mind seeing people compete on something like Zanac Neo, however.
Also, Caravan Modes in some really old games are okay for short competitions. You might want to give players more chances on Caravan Modes though, since they're quite short. (Get Recca!)

The whole point of the later rounds after the first though is just that -- if people don't have a good run on their one chance, it sucks. But, they have three other games to try to redeem themselves on.

It works really good to make a really intense competition. Depending on what the games are, one thing that I would like to experiment with doing is having all four final round players play the games at the exact same time. While it would involve more consoles and copies of the games, I think that it would really put the pressure on even more.

In the pinball ones, the four players play the same game at the same time, which means you are always watching the score. If you're there in a group and you know that the other three are playing, but you're on your last life, it could really cause some sweat!

As for exploits, what if I came back with a list of games and you guys told me if there were exploits that stuck out in your mind with some of them? If that works with you, that would really help me.

2) If you plan on using consoles games, perhaps take a look at arcade ports. Some ports are pretty complex and might be difficult for most in scoring competitions (like Border Down, Dodonpachi Daioujou or Garegga, three games of which require lots of practice and foreknowledge), but you can find some decent games like G.Darius, Raiden 3 or DX, Strikers 1945 II, and many others that are suitable.

This is where I'm hoping that we can get some good input on which games to use and how. The biggest thing is fostering competition in a timely manner. For instance, if a game takes 5 minutes to play, it means that we could have in the 10 hours we are open on Saturday 120 plays on that particular title. If on the other hand, we pick a game that takes an hour (*Blazing Lazers*), it can only get 12 entries, making the competition rather dull.

In that case, either a Caravan mode or a purposely limiting factor (play only the first level, harder game settings, etc) might be in order. Personally, I kind of like this idea, as I think it could really make the games even more intense when you know that you need five million more points and you only have a few ways that you could catch that in the last few seconds. I think it could be really neat. And, in that case, I think some of the complex scoring games (as long as announced beforehand) work great, as people will understand their scoring system beforehand.

3) Maybe consider arcade emulation as well, if using multiple arcade cabs or supergun setups is too costly. MAME comes with high score saving which will make record-keeping easier. All you'd need is a PC, a big monitor and a decent joystick setup. Or you can use a PC-in-a-cab.
Heck, if you really want to promote future competitions to the many online shooting game communities, perhaps use MAME's input recording function and distribute the top scoring replays to the public.

While I do like this idea, unfortunately because we work with many companies to hold the event including rights holders who haven't released their ROMs into the public domain, I can't do this at the show

[goatdan]

I agree with Arvandor. There should be some games we can practice on beforehand, and some kept secret. The secrecy last year definitely was intriguing, because I got to attempt many games I had not experienced before, only having the advantage of seeing others play to get a decent idea of any special mechanics. However, not knowing some games others did know also put me at a disadvantage at times. So I think a healthy blend of the two would work best.

What about this as a proposal -- I want to do everything the same in both of the competitions -- pinball and shmup -- to keep things easier to understand for everyone. In the pinball case, I've been going back and forth with how to announce the games that we will be playing and so on. The general thinking is that the more complex the game, the more that it should be announced.

What about this -- based on what you said next about the Demon Attack round, what if we announce four of the games that will be played, and leave the fifth as a "mystery" game which will not be revealed until the show. In order to keep the mystery game still pretty even, it would be the one old school game that we would put in the mix. So, we would announce (for instance) a Sega Master System, SNES, Saturn, Dreamcast and PS2 shmup, and there would be a "random mystery game" which would be played for the 2600, or Intellivision, or Colecovision, or something like that.

That way, the field should still be level with the new game (or close to it), but there is still something random in there.

I would also do this with pinball, probably not announcing the electro-mechanical game that we do, as those are all VERY straightforward compared to some of the other games that we are looking at doing.

The tiebreaker battle with Postman on Demon Attack was definitely intense! And the competition itself had a great intensity around it. With only one chance per game in the later rounds, you had to question taking risks for a higher score, or playing it safe. And it was an absolute blast.

I know that Postman had never played Demon Attack before. Out of curiosity, did you?

Anyhow, 99% chance I will be making the long drive up there again in March for the MGC. And hopefully this year I'll give it a try on more tournaments like the Pinball one, in addition to the Shmup tourney. I'm definitely looking forward to competing with DJI and others once again.

Awesome! I forget who it was that came for the shmup tournament and ended up competing in the A division of the pinball tournament and actually placing in the top 8. That was officially amazing!

[shoe-sama]

top 8 out of how many people now?

[-Bridget-]

I don't think there's a point in not holding this event just because a bunch of people on a message board that wouldn't be going to it anyways have a problem with the name (myself included).

hes trying to attract real shmups players dumbass thats why hes asking on these boards, for people who might be interested in a real life tournament this is a golden opportunity to voice your ideas and make a difference in building such an event, you dont even have to spend any money, hell you dont even have to attend!
"pro" shmupsplayers arent going to walk in straight off teh street just as pro pinball players dont, you have to attract them somehow...


i baffles my mind so many complain about the name of it, isnt it obvious hes calling it that to just catch the publics attention, whats wrong with you morons???

Would you go out and buy some reading comprehension? Please? I was encouraging the dude to not give up on it and to ignore the previous criticisms. I said no one from here would be attending because IT ISN'T WITHIN TRAVELING DISTANCE FOR 99% OF THE PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD!!!

So yes, learn to understand what you're reading before name calling mkay? Otherwise, you wind up being the "dumbass".

On THIS board, specifically.


And that's no reason NOT to hold the thing.


There's plenty of other shmup players than just those here, so please dont let any of this discourage you. And as someone said above, some people are gonna respond like that just to get a kick outta doing so.


*I* personally would love to come. Im not one of those that lives out in the middle of California or wherever; if this is where I think it is, it'd be very, very easy for me to get to. If you hold this event (and if it doesnt interfere with anything else I have going on, which is unlikely, cause I dont DO much of anything), I will come to it.

And I dont give a flip what the name is. You could call it the "Super Chicken Roost", and as long as it was still for shmupping, I'd come.

And I think alot of others from this area, and areas nearby, would love to come.


My main question is this: It was said somewhere above that this tournament "isnt the only event at the show".

What exactly IS this "show"? Some sort of gaming convention?



A bit more info would be very helpful indeed, if you dont mind.



EDIT: Of COURSE a buncha posts are made WHILE Im typing this, lol

Isnt that always the way it works..... haha.....

[Boric]

What about this -- based on what you said next about the Demon Attack round, what if we announce four of the games that will be played, and leave the fifth as a "mystery" game which will not be revealed until the show. In order to keep the mystery game still pretty even, it would be the one old school game that we would put in the mix. So, we would announce (for instance) a Sega Master System, SNES, Saturn, Dreamcast and PS2 shmup, and there would be a "random mystery game" which would be played for the 2600, or Intellivision, or Colecovision, or something like that.

That way, the field should still be level with the new game (or close to it), but there is still something random in there.

I would also do this with pinball, probably not announcing the electro-mechanical game that we do, as those are all VERY straightforward compared to some of the other games that we are looking at doing.

That sounds great!

I know that Postman had never played Demon Attack before. Out of curiosity, did you?

Nope, never had, completely new to me as well, which was part of what made that a neat retro tiebreaker finish

Awesome! I forget who it was that came for the shmup tournament and ended up competing in the A division of the pinball tournament and actually placing in the top 8. That was officially amazing!

I'm not really sure who that was, but as I said, I'll give the pinball a shot as well this coming year I think. Maybe I can help shake things up a bit there as well

[undamned]

Can I play against Clover-TAC there? SOF-NAI?
-ud

[goatdan]

Three quick notes for now.

First, the show is the Midwest Gaming Classic. Information is here -- http://www.midwestgamingclassic.com/ Expect there to be a lot more information there on 11/15, which is when we plan on officially re-launching the site.

Second, I agree with Super Laydock's idea for changing the title slightly. The revised name would be the "Shmup Worldwide Open" which would still crown the "World's Greatest Shmup Player" (who decides to show up). Would that sit better with some of you?

Finally, I just want to confirm now with the pinball side of announcing four games and the fifth at the show. I'm almost certain that we'll go with this. And, with the help that I am now seeming to receive, I think that we will try this again. It's all for fun, right?

[Arvandor]

It's all for fun, right?

Theoretically, yes -_^

[Twiddle]

You should have seen both STGTs, where people were going at each others' throats.

On a competition for bragging rights, even.

I'm working on fixing the bragging rights part. Some of the games you won't want to brag about being good at.

[shoe-sama]

HEY GUYS IM GOOD AT RAIDENX LOL

[-Bridget-]

*takes a look at pictures*


Omigod, I am so totally NOT missing out on this.


Not just for the shmup thing, but for the whole show.


All the arcade units and games and what looks like a vendor hall of OMIGOD-I-NEED-IT......


You have MY attendance, that's for sure.

[doctorx0079]

Second, I agree with Super Laydock's idea for changing the title slightly. The revised name would be the "Shmup Worldwide Open" which would still crown the "World's Greatest Shmup Player" (who decides to show up). Would that sit better with some of you?

Excellent idea, that sounds just about right. Nice compromise.

"Open" is an accurate description and it sounds official too.

Now we need Gaijin Punch to get it into the Japanese press . .

[DJ Incompetent]

Props, Dan for fielding all the bitching again. Noble move.

I've seen more elitist bastardism in this thread than I have in the Raizing vs Cave arguments. Holy crap guys, what is some of your problems?

The people commenting are just looking for a rise.

truths.

The forum hates everything by default. 'Still have no idea how STGT got off the ground. And it was much of the same people rippin' yer WGSP as they trolled against STGT; but in the 2nd year, participation still increased. The same 6-somethin' people in the mega-vocal bunch are very knowledgeable, but don't run popular opinion around here.

Also, if your target is only the forum, this map should put things in perspective.

- JAMMAs or original system controllers only (player's choice)

do want.
I can assume JAMMAs by your definition are more of Kamino's homemade goods, right?

Finally, for games. I do very much want to do this by era. So, we would have one early console game, one NES / SMS era game, one "16 bit" era game, one Saturn / Playstation era game, and one newer "modern" era game. If we did this, I would want this board to help me come up with some selections. I personally own a lot of games. I own a lot of 2D shmups. I love shmups, or else I wouldn't be willing to do this Having said that, I don't have the biggest shmup collection ever I'm sure, and on certain games (*cough*blazinglasers*cough*) I didn't realize how easy it would be to marathon the game.

Your people are gonna playtest for infinites this time, right?

Console-based shooting games generally are broken, not usually well suited to scoring competitions, and often come with a billion exploits. Ones usually involving putting a brick on the fire button, sitting in a specific spot and then going off to the pub for a few hours while the score counter racks up.

*bursts out laughing*

Along with that, I don't necessarily want to toss out games like Blazing Lazers, but I would like to think about making a rule that perhaps if a game like Blazing Lazers is picked, the score is the score at the end of the first level plus 10% for each life that is left. This in my opinion would make the competition more fierce, as players would be forced to go for points quickly in riskier situations for the payoff.

I'd sorta understand if first stage is used in the qualifying, but if you're going to pull a one-stage cap in the later rounds, you'll definitely want to investigate in stage-select codes and make that single stage be a later one.

For prizes, expect a similarly sized prize vault as last year.

Raise cash prizes. At least give the chance of breaking even for road-trip & hotel.

It works really good to make a really intense competition. Depending on what the games are, one thing that I would like to experiment with doing is having all four final round players play the games at the exact same time. While it would involve more consoles and copies of the games, I think that it would really put the pressure on even more.

You might want everybody just playin' somethin' anyway. Games I didn't know anything about I was tryin' to study other players to know when the asshole bullet patterns would come up.

3) Maybe consider arcade emulation as well, if using multiple arcade cabs or supergun setups is too costly. MAME comes with high score saving which will make record-keeping easier. All you'd need is a PC, a big monitor and a decent joystick setup. Or you can use a PC-in-a-cab.
Heck, if you really want to promote future competitions to the many online shooting game communities, perhaps use MAME's input recording function and distribute the top scoring replays to the public.

While I do like this idea, unfortunately because we work with many companies to hold the event including rights holders who haven't released their ROMs into the public domain, I can't do this at the show

To workaround the MAME thing, there's some decent stuff on the Capcom Classics Collections and Taito Legends 2 (PS2). All the titles are built solid without infinites. About 8-15 Arcade-version STGs in all that.

I want to beat the crud outta DJI

I'll bank on Kamino talkin' your ear off while playing...causin' teh lose.

Also (comment directed at goatdan), I do embrace the idea. However your "World's Greatest Shmup Player" got owned by 18 other players in this years STGT. Perhaps drop the "World's" bit from the title since you don't exactly incorporate the rest of the known world into the scope of the competition (yet), as that's the primary gripe with some of the people on this forum.

Nothin' like co-organizing my own downfall.

Anyway, calling it 2nd Annual "Greatest Shmup Player" is for the best. Or something-something Shmup Open. That's coo too.

Make me less of a walking falsificare.

Anyhow, 99% chance I will be making the long drive up there again in March for the MGC. And hopefully this year I'll give it a try on more tournaments like the Pinball one, in addition to the Shmup tourney. I'm definitely looking forward to competing with DJI and others once again.

Awesome! I forget who it was that came for the shmup tournament and ended up competing in the A division of the pinball tournament and actually placing in the top 8. That was officially amazing!

Yeah...erm...that was me.
If I even thought of just milking the frikkin' ramps in Episode 1 table I woulda stayed in that. Needed that $500 prize so bad



For the record, I probably won't road trip to MGC again if there's no shmup tourney. Road Trips that put me in temporary financial insecurity need that big event that serve the purpose of taking the trip in the first place. To leave the state just to have fun doesn't cut it with broke-ass college student.


To Forum:

Midwest Gaming Classic.
The area it's in is intimidatingly nice. It's right next to the Pabst Farms of the PBR beer, which is oddly a great-looking resort-like place for such a low-end beer.

Plan your hotel before going, and do it with some time in advance. I did that shit last minute and had to drive kinda far out because shit was booked everywhere.

Surrounding towns I visited had excellent bars with great food. Very mid-90s optimistic attitude with the staff over there. Creepy, 'cause everybody's supposed to be a jaded-fuck nowadays, but whatever. The girl 'n I were treated well.

For the tournaments, qualifying opportunity lasted all day, so go have fun with all the games on free-play and earn your qualifying whenever you want. It's like a carnival on that round, so anybody can buy their way in with enough attempts. Obviously, you'll just eat that cash in the next round if you really do suck at shooting games.

Set side all day the sunday for the tournament. Just meaning play all the free-play stuff you wanted to play on Sat. 'cause you'll have to be on-call for some of the games and just hang around the tourney area for decent periods of time, cutoff from the free-play games in other rooms.

They don't really serve booze at the event, but I was openly drinking throughout the tournaments. I was having a phenomenal time. I had to of won by accident 'cause I was sorta sloshed by the end.

For many, it's worth to go to this thing with intent to visit the Midwest Gaming Classic event. It will occupy the weekend nicely and make for a good time, even if you don't expect to do well in tournaments.

[moozooh]

I support the initiative to change the name to "Shmup Worldwide Open". It sounds less pretentious and more to the point. Very good, imo.

Still not enough to make me go to US, though, but I guess it'd take much more than a shmup tournament. :)

[Arvandor]

Console-based shooting games generally are broken, not usually well suited to scoring competitions, and often come with a billion exploits. Ones usually involving putting a brick on the fire button, sitting in a specific spot and then going off to the pub for a few hours while the score counter racks up.

*bursts out laughing*

Yeah, I thought it was pretty funny too =) But for reasons only perhaps you, Boric, and myself would understand. None of the others browse here regularly enough to see the irony.

PS: Flask > Brick

I'd sorta understand if first stage is used in the qualifying, but if you're going to pull a one-stage cap in the later rounds, you'll definitely want to investigate in stage-select codes and make that single stage be a later one.

I was going to post this exact idea. Stage 1 of Mars Matrix would be really incredibly retarded (and boring), but going into Score Attack and selecting stage 5 would actually be a really cool mini-event for a shmup tournament.

[goatdan]

First off, thanks again to everyone for the replies that have been coming lately. This is suddenly going away from the "wow are you guys making me feel stupid about this" category to the "all right, this will work" category.

For the record, there probably will also be a Halo 3 tournament at the show, as I did end up talking with a place around town who thinks it is a great idea. If (when) we do this, we'll have to coordinate the TVs or something and the timing of it all, if we use the same TVs as the shmup tourney.

Also, if your target is only the forum, this map should put things in perspective.

I just wanted to quickly say this -- I do know that people are spread out, but like I said quite early on -- my whole thinking of this from the get go was that it would be a place for people to gather to hang out, talk shmups, and so on. Not *just* a shmup comp. The pinball people do it, the Jaguar people do it (to a lesser extent now), that's what made me think it would be worth doing.

And I'm glad that it seems that a reasonable amount of people are now considering it

- JAMMAs or original system controllers only (player's choice)

do want.
I can assume JAMMAs by your definition are more of Kamino's homemade goods, right?

Yes. Again, sorry about the issue with the wording there -- we actually sell these through my online store the GOAT Store, so I just defaulted and called them that without thinking about the fact that they also (obviously) are an arcade genre.

Your people are gonna playtest for infinites this time, right?

*sigh* Yes, yes. Like I said, one of the things that I want to do is actually talk about the games that we are looking at on here and maybe run through 15 of them and scenarios that could work. Then, from those, approximately a month before the show, we would announce the four games of the five.

The fifth game, which I can guarantee you won't be an infinite because it will be old school and hard I think I've devised an interesting way to do it. In the final rounds, the player who is picking the game to play can pick the four other games (those four will never change) or pick the mystery game, which would be pulled from a hat. The mystery game would be like four or five different options, so when it was pulled in the final rounds, it could be different for the semis and the finals.

We would do the same thing with pinball. Four games would be definitely "in there" games, the fifth would be a random game. That way, the player who is picking the games gets to decide if he or she wishes to play on their worst game of the four they know, or risk it on a game that they (and no one else) don't know. I think that could be exciting.

I'd sorta understand if first stage is used in the qualifying, but if you're going to pull a one-stage cap in the later rounds, you'll definitely want to investigate in stage-select codes and make that single stage be a later one.

Right. That's what I would need help figuring out, but I definitely do think that the idea would be that they would be on a different level.

Raise cash prizes. At least give the chance of breaking even for road-trip & hotel.

Actually, lemme clarify -- we were planning on a similarly sized vault, but doing it in cash this year. So, you're in luck. And I would assume that the prizes would be close or closer to the pinball level, which would be something close to the:

First place - $500
Second place - $75
Third Place - $50
Fourth Place - $25

structure. That's an expenditure of $650 plus trophies (about $60), so $710 overall. Something to note however -- that is 213 entries played (at the buy 3 for $10 rate, so 67 entries of 3 games) which would mean that last year the event would have lost about $400ish.

While I'm not looking to make money off the tournaments (breaking even is honestly all that I care about, after that it will go back into prizes if not this year, next), a $400ish risk definitely does concern me.

So... tell your friends, and try to get them to play! If it ends up that the shmup tournament costs that much to put on, I just don't have the finances myself to underwrite that, unfortunately.

While I'm on the topic, if anyone here is willing to help ref / judge the tournament, please contact me via PM. You *may* still compete, and I promise you that you won't be stuck there the whole time, but we're going to be very light on refs this coming year (the people who ran the pinball tournament can't make it, so right now I have two refs for approximately 15 events, which is no way going to work).

You might want everybody just playin' somethin' anyway. Games I didn't know anything about I was tryin' to study other players to know when the asshole bullet patterns would come up.

That's the other thing that I was thinking about too. And honestly, I don't consider myself a bad pinball player, but I have been playing the crap out of one of the games that we are going to use in the tournament this year to make sure that it will work right with the set up that it currently has, or if I need to look into modifying it. The game tracks my stats...

Average ball time 40 seconds (out of like 200 games played, yeesh this game kicks my ass... I LOVE it!)

So, a four player game in a tournament should last 40x3x4 = 8 minutes for one round. A great game might last twice as long, which would make the round up to 16 minutes long.

That is about where I would like to land the shmup tournament. It isn't a hard and fast deadline, but it would make the finals take around an hour at the most, instead of the freaking marathon that it turned into (which I apologize again for, it wasn't supposed to be).

To workaround the MAME thing, there's some decent stuff on the Capcom Classics Collections and Taito Legends 2 (PS2). All the titles are built solid without infinites. About 8-15 Arcade-version STGs in all that.

Agreed. I would only want to use one, but I already have those on the plate. In fact, I just picked up a copy of Taito Legends 2 for the PS2, as I gave up on looking for it on the Xbox.

Nothin' like co-organizing my own downfall.

Anyway, calling it 2nd Annual "Greatest Shmup Player" is for the best. Or something-something Shmup Open. That's coo too.

Make me less of a walking falsificare.

I like the "open" idea, as I do feel like for the promotional purposes I have to use the word "World" in it.

Yeah...erm...that was me.
If I even thought of just milking the frikkin' ramps in Episode 1 table I woulda stayed in that. Needed that $500 prize so bad

Jeez, that was you too?

Oh, and random interesting note since it was discussed on here a bit -- If you don't have the right software revision in Episode 1, you can actually just continue to milk the ramps and the scores on them just continue to get higher and higher with no stopping how high it got, meaning if you were decent at shooting the ramp you could just create a huge high score doing nothing else.

So scoring exploits are also something that you have to watch for on pinball. The difference is that with pinball, Josh and Zach walk up to a game and go, "We can't use this because of this ..." or, "We have to check this to see if it has this in it ..." and they know for about... oh, 98% of the games that are made. We have to get to that point with shmups so I can go, "Oh, Blazing Lazers... Great game, but it has 50 exploits, so we can't use it..."

For the record, I probably won't road trip to MGC again if there's no shmup tourney. Road Trips that put me in temporary financial insecurity need that big event that serve the purpose of taking the trip in the first place. To leave the state just to have fun doesn't cut it with broke-ass college student.

I agree with you

At this point, expect us to find a way to make it worth your while