World's Greatest Shmup Player - Part 2

[goatdan]

Okay, one thing quickly because I think this really highlights we're thinking it might not be worth attempting again:

I said no one from here would be attending because IT ISN'T WITHIN TRAVELING DISTANCE FOR 99% OF THE PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD!!!

If no one is willing to travel because this is too far away, then what is the point of doing it? If that's the truth, the name is totally wrong... but I'm not going to risk money and floor space on the "Milwaukee Local Decent Shmup Player Tournament" when everyone has already noted that the shmup community is rather small.

A local Halo 3 tournament would be MUCH better than a local tournament for a genre that isn't nearly as popular as Halo 3.

Since the players that I consider to be some of the best shmup players are on these boards and saying that it is too far to travel (are shmup players here younger? I thought that more shmup players were my age, I guess) then there truly is no point in doing it now.

The first year that the pinball tournament was held was 2006. That year, we had four of the top ten pinball players in the world compete, as well as the person who took the world pinball player title for the year. Our prizes were similar in size to the shmup tournament. We did nothing extra to attract those players -- they just came to compete.

Also, like I said, considering that people come from all over the US for the show already (and even as far away as Japan), the fact that no one here is interested in coming regardless of the competition also shows me that there just isn't interest.

In 2004, we had a Halo tournament with minimal prizes that 40 people competed in. While we had over 100 entries played in the Shmup tournament last year, it wasn't even 40 people total that competed. Personally, I don't like Halo. I don't really want to do a Halo tournament again. But you guys have made a *very* convincing argument that throwing the towel in on the shmups and doing a Halo tournament is probably the way to go. I'm sure we could attract at least 40 people for a local Halo tournament. Or, we could hold a local shmup player tournament for three people.

[jp]

Okay, one thing quickly because I think this really highlights we're thinking it might not be worth attempting again:

I said no one from here would be attending because IT ISN'T WITHIN TRAVELING DISTANCE FOR 99% OF THE PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD!!!

If no one is willing to travel because this is too far away, then what is the point of doing it? If that's the truth, the name is totally wrong... but I'm not going to risk money and floor space on the "Milwaukee Local Decent Shmup Player Tournament" when everyone has already noted that the shmup community is rather small.

A local Halo 3 tournament would be MUCH better than a local tournament for a genre that isn't nearly as popular as Halo 3.

Since the players that I consider to be some of the best shmup players are on these boards and saying that it is too far to travel (are shmup players here younger? I thought that more shmup players were my age, I guess) then there truly is no point in doing it now.

The first year that the pinball tournament was held was 2006. That year, we had four of the top ten pinball players in the world compete, as well as the person who took the world pinball player title for the year. Our prizes were similar in size to the shmup tournament. We did nothing extra to attract those players -- they just came to compete.

Also, like I said, considering that people come from all over the US for the show already (and even as far away as Japan), the fact that no one here is interested in coming regardless of the competition also shows me that there just isn't interest.

In 2004, we had a Halo tournament with minimal prizes that 40 people competed in. While we had over 100 entries played in the Shmup tournament last year, it wasn't even 40 people total that competed. Personally, I don't like Halo. I don't really want to do a Halo tournament again. But you guys have made a *very* convincing argument that throwing the towel in on the shmups and doing a Halo tournament is probably the way to go. I'm sure we could attract at least 40 people for a local Halo tournament. Or, we could hold a local shmup player tournament for three people.

Dude, this is one message board. I can guarantee you that the absolute "best shmup players in the world" aren't here either. There are a bunch of really good shmup players here though.

But the point is, like I said, this is just some message board, and really shouldn't be the focus of your "attendees". And this is being held in California right? I'm sure there's a ton of decent players that are into the genre that would show up if it was advertised well. Just gotta get the word out at places other than online message boards for an obscure genre.

And yeah, a lot of us are older... but a lot of us have other things to do. For instance, you can't expect me to fly all the way out to California to play in a 2D shooter competition. I'm in college, I've got two jobs, I'm trying to make ends meet, there's just no way. Likewise, a lot of other people on here are also in school, or have jobs, or families, or what not that they need to attend to. You can't show up on a message board and except a group from said message board to just drop everything to fly out another state/country just to play in a shooting tournament. Now, if the competition was mobile, say, you traveled to different states hosting the tournament, you'd probably get a bigger reception from us. But its in one corner of the US, I mean, why would I spend $1000 or so on a plane ticket, food, place to stay, etc. to compete in a 2D shooter tournament?

But I'm NOT saying you SHOULDN'T do it or that its a futile effort. I'm saying you need to focus on advertising IN CALIFORNIA, not HERE, as I'm sure there's a plethora of 2D shooter players there that would be happy to attend. And even if they aren't the hardcore type like Randorama or Del, they'd probably still have fun, and isn't that the entire point of these things?

And of course you're going to get a bigger turnout for Halo, its the biggest mainstream game in the US right now. But you know what? There's probably THOUSANDS of Halo tournaments going on in this country every WEEK. Its Halo. I think its better that you do something different, and overtime if you keep doing something different, its bound to attract people.

You said you weren't planning on these events "breaking even" until 2010. Well, might as well keep trying at it and see if it grows you know?

[Dave_K.]

ding dong the witch is dead!


Seriously though, props to goatdan for wanting to publicize this niche gaming affliction of shmups. But rather than point out or criticize the problems in his thinking, I'd rather open a new thread with counter proposal.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=17078

[Davey]

the best player on mystery games should theoretically be the best on known titles, right?

play mechanics from game to game are rather transferable

That's the thing: they're really not. Basic dodging skills might transfer, but knowledge of scoring systems certainly doesn't. And even if you can pick up a scoring system quickly, it still takes a lot of time and practice to be able to manipulate the system (you need to know where the secrets are, where enemies show up, how to milk bosses, etc.).

The main issue with not knowing the games ahead of time is that people who have played the games before have a huge advantage, even over people with much more natural talent. This could be good or bad, depending on what you're aiming for.

Publishing the game list ahead of time might alleviate this, depending on how many games are on the list and how far in advance it's posted. However, not knowing what to practice ahead of time seemed like a selling point to me (albeit with the inherent disadvantage I already mentioned).

Oh, and because it bears repeating:

Criticism of the title was well covered last year. Get over it, dudes. Just see it as an "official" meet up with trophies.

[goatdan]

Dude, this is one message board. I can guarantee you that the absolute "best shmup players in the world" aren't here either. There are a bunch of really good shmup players here though.

Exactly. And there has been traditionally very little interest in doing such a thing. I thought that after last year doing this and having it work well there would be more interest in either attending this year, or at least support of the tournament.

There isn't. That shows something.

We tripled the amount of players in the second year of the pinball tournament. I'm not going to rely on locals to triple the amount of play in a genre with little popularity in the mainstream.

But the point is, like I said, this is just some message board, and really shouldn't be the focus of your "attendees". And this is being held in California right? I'm sure there's a ton of decent players that are into the genre that would show up if it was advertised well. Just gotta get the word out at places other than online message boards for an obscure genre.

Now this really highlights to me the interest level -- the Midwest Gaming Classic is located near Milwaukee, WI. If there isn't even an understanding of where this is and you still know that it is too far to travel, then really what is the point?

And yeah, a lot of us are older... but a lot of us have other things to do. For instance, you can't expect me to fly all the way out to California to play in a 2D shooter competition. I'm in college, I've got two jobs, I'm trying to make ends meet, there's just no way. Likewise, a lot of other people on here are also in school, or have jobs, or families, or what not that they need to attend to. You can't show up on a message board and except a group from said message board to just drop everything to fly out another state/country just to play in a shooting tournament. Now, if the competition was mobile, say, you traveled to different states hosting the tournament, you'd probably get a bigger reception from us. But its in one corner of the US, I mean, why would I spend $1000 or so on a plane ticket, food, place to stay, etc. to compete in a 2D shooter tournament?

I didn't and I don't expect everyone on the board to drop everything and suddenly show up. However, the fact that there is no interest in the show itself other than condemning the tournament once again shows me something -- apparently, while I personally like the show and a few other shmup players that I know enjoyed the show, it apparently isn't something that you guys would consider attending.

Maybe shmup players are older, but they don't like to play shmups in public. Whatever the reason, this has all spoke *volumes* to both myself and Gary the other organizer.

But I'm NOT saying you SHOULDN'T do it or that its a futile effort. I'm saying you need to focus on advertising IN CALIFORNIA, not HERE, as I'm sure there's a plethora of 2D shooter players there that would be happy to attend. And even if they aren't the hardcore type like Randorama or Del, they'd probably still have fun, and isn't that the entire point of these things?

And of course you're going to get a bigger turnout for Halo, its the biggest mainstream game in the US right now. But you know what? There's probably THOUSANDS of Halo tournaments going on in this country every WEEK. Its Halo. I think its better that you do something different, and overtime if you keep doing something different, its bound to attract people.

I usually do agree that it is better to do something different, but doing something as the "World's Greatest" when no one other than in the Midwest wants to come out and compete doesn't make sense.

Now I'm agreeing with you all -- we shouldn't name it the World's Greatest because there are very few of you willing to come out to it and it isn't fair unless 90% of you could show up to compete. But explain to me how it would make sense to have the "Milwaukee's Greatest Shmup Player Tournament" and have ten people show up to play? When will that ever break even?

So fine -- you've all convinced me that it shouldn't be called the World's Greatest... but then there is NO sense in ever putting it on if it will never grab the attention of a national or world wide audience. And since we haven't done that, I'll also do what you suggest.

Target the local audience for something they'll actually show up for.

You said you weren't planning on these events "breaking even" until 2010. Well, might as well keep trying at it and see if it grows you know?

No, the pinball tournament is well on its way, and it is expected to break even (not including game purchasing prices) this year.

[goatdan]

Dave,

Thanks for the one decent reply here. I actually set up a meeting with a local game store today to see about doing the Halo thing, but I'm willing to keep looking at this a bit, and maybe just running it as a one day thing, or a mini-tournament or something. I don't want to give up on it, but the more that I've seen people on here posting, even those who are now arguing for us to do it, the more they convince me there is no reason to do it. Anyway...

the best player on mystery games should theoretically be the best on known titles, right?

play mechanics from game to game are rather transferable

That's the thing: they're really not. Basic dodging skills might transfer, but knowledge of scoring systems certainly doesn't. And even if you can pick up a scoring system quickly, it still takes a lot of time and practice to be able to manipulate the system (you need to know where the secrets are, where enemies show up, how to milk bosses, etc.).

The main issue with not knowing the games ahead of time is that people who have played the games before have a huge advantage, even over people with much more natural talent. This could be good or bad, depending on what you're aiming for.

Publishing the game list ahead of time might alleviate this, depending on how many games are on the list and how far in advance it's posted. However, not knowing what to practice ahead of time seemed like a selling point to me (albeit with the inherent disadvantage I already mentioned).

Let me explain the thinking behind it like this -- this actually comes direct from Josh Sharpe who won the pinball tournament last year when we were talking about announcing the pin games early or not:

The reason to do it is that while you think that skills are transferable game to game, the most important part about how you play a game is what you shoot for and what scores the best. Anyone with a full knowledge of a huge assortment of games will have a great advantage above those players who don't.

You need to know the rules and how to exploit them to get the best scores. It would level the playing field a lot by announcing the games beforehand because that way everyone can study them to know what to go for and how to play that particular title.

--

My thinking is that if we had done this or if something suddenly changes and we decide to do it, we will end up doing five games total and announcing them beforehand. Right now, that is the plan with the pinball tournament, and we are expecting a fierce competition because of it.

The disadvantage to not announcing them is that if you show up and go, "Ooo, I don't know those games, those other players will kick my ass" it means that you aren't playing, which isn't helping us pay off the prize money nor making the competition fiercer, which helps with re-entries.

I plan on making the pinball prizes bigger and bigger based on the amount of competition, and I think this could definitely help!

[Super Laydock]

. But its in one corner of the US, I mean, why would I spend $1000 or so on a plane ticket, food, place to stay, etc. to compete in a 2D shooter tournament?

$1000 for a non international retour flight!!!????

surely you have some low cost carriers inside of the US as well?

Anyway, I think it´s really kinda sad to see all this negative vibes.

Can´t we just see this as a good place for a shmup meet on a global scale.
It would be nice meeting other members from here and let´s be honest, the rest of the show sounds like worthy of visiting as well.

Let me say this, I´ve never been to the US midwest before, but if this IS announced well in time and there´s more interest from this forum I am willing to fly there just to be there. I am in no way a worthy competitor, but I am enthusiastic nonetheless.
just see the competition as a (very nice) bonus.
You can all see me suck there. (only @ shmups of course ).

[goatdan]

ding dong the witch is dead!


Seriously though, props to goatdan for wanting to publicize this niche gaming affliction of shmups. But rather than point out or criticize the problems in his thinking, I'd rather open a new thread with counter proposal.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=17078

Local meets are fine, but I wouldn't personally be willing to host one at the Midwest Gaming Classic if that is what you are thinking. I would be willing to let someone else do it, but if it is only to draw the local 10 people out to play, I can't tie up my assets in it.

Also, while I know you think that I'm stupid about tournaments or whatever, I think you'd be surprised by just how much knowledge we have in this field, and it will be *extremely* difficult to make your plan work. At the least, you need people to play on the exact same hardware with the exact same set ups to be able to compare scores. There is a reason that we bought five identical TVs for the tournament last year.

"Real" tournaments are a lot harder to run than you may think. Good luck with your idea, and I would wholeheartedly support it, but it isn't as easy as just saying that you're going to do. I spent at least 80 hours and hundreds of dollars putting together the one-location competition last year. It would take a *lot* more to put this on nation or worldwide.

[Hitaro]

Just a question; why the heck do you keep comparing video games to pinball?

[goatdan]

Just a question; why the heck do you keep comparing video games to pinball?

The shmup tournament format is completely based on the extremely successful pinball tournament. And, believe it or not, the genres are truly not that different from one another.

[Super Laydock]

Let´s make this a world meet for this forum...

Us Europeans can´t blame high prices now with the extremely cheap us$.
A nice idea to have an event to attempt to, meet some more ppl from this board and be abroad in a place most of us never´ve been.

We could all play some games, then go out get real drunk and share some stories on it later.


Everyone still bitching about the name should be shot on site. :twisted evil:

Why not call this the Shmup Worldwide Open?

If at least 10 members of this board attend, I promise to be there too.

[Hitaro]

Just a question; why the heck do you keep comparing video games to pinball?

The shmup tournament format is completely based on the extremely successful pinball tournament. And, believe it or not, the genres are truly not that different from one another.

Elaborate please.

[goatdan]

Just a question; why the heck do you keep comparing video games to pinball?

The shmup tournament format is completely based on the extremely successful pinball tournament. And, believe it or not, the genres are truly not that different from one another.

Elaborate please.

Both are arcade genres based on high score and simple game control, but have certain aspects that make each game unique and an interesting challenge.

Read the rest of this thread for other examples of why I feel they can be compared. I'm not going to bother trying to type of a novel on it.

[jp]

. But its in one corner of the US, I mean, why would I spend $1000 or so on a plane ticket, food, place to stay, etc. to compete in a 2D shooter tournament?

$1000 for a non international retour flight!!!????

surely you have some low cost carriers inside of the US as well?

Erm... that $1000 covered a round-trip flight, a stay at a hotel, food, etc.

[jp]

goatdan,


No one is even saying anything about the name anymore (so knock it off, I'd never heard of it prior so thats why it struck me as odd, and my description as to of why a lot of people DO have a problem with the name wasn't my personal opinion, but was me trying to explain the thought process behind the complaints). Nor is anyone trying to discourage you from this. All I'm doing is trying to provide some common sense. Its like, you showed up on the board to promote a competition thats in Milwaukee (sorry, I thought you said California earlier) but since no one really has the time to go traveling to it you're now talking about ending it. You've done it ONCE, and now you're thinking about quitting because there isn't enough interest on an internet message board? Shouldn't you at least how it goes for another few years?

[Zebra Airforce]

goatdan, you made it seem as though the Shooting Game tournament was successful last year. How many people showed up?
What makes you sure it will be unsuccessful this year?

I'd also like to say that you should be doing this to promote the genre. If you love this genre, then do it because you love it and want to see more interest in it.

[Hitaro]

Both are arcade genres based on high score and simple game control, but have certain aspects that make each game unique and an interesting challenge.

Read the rest of this thread for other examples of why I feel they can be compared. I'm not going to bother trying to type of a novel on it.

Please explain "arcade genre", why it matters and "simple game control".

And the only reason I've read is that you've gotten advice from "top pinball players" and that "you've gone to pinball tournaments", which have nothing to do with video games.

[Rob]

Please explain "arcade genre", why it matters and "simple game control".

It isn't hard to figure out. At all.

[Arvandor]

Screw travel distance, if I didn't have my vacation time already tied up in going to Sturgis followed by a cruise up through Bamf(sp?) and Jasper, I'd definitely come up to the MGC and participate in the tourney. Even if I am one of the worst players on these forums ^_^

As for control method, I'd just say let people bring their own, and then disallow any kind of auto-fire or whatever. Many MANY people love their Hori-Real Arcade Pros, and have probably never once toggled any of the auto-fire switches (I know I haven't... Except the once to see how fast Jam could spam standing punch).

I've seen more elitist bastardism in this thread than I have in the Raizing vs Cave arguments. Holy crap guys, what is some of your problems?

[Dave_K.]

Local meets are fine, but I wouldn't personally be willing to host one at the Midwest Gaming Classic if that is what you are thinking. I would be willing to let someone else do it, but if it is only to draw the local 10 people out to play, I can't tie up my assets in it.

Looking at this as a business opportunity only, means you've already failed. We are a niche community, not a market segment.

Also, while I know you think that I'm stupid about tournaments or whatever, I think you'd be surprised by just how much knowledge we have in this field, and it will be *extremely* difficult to make your plan work.

I never said you were stupid, don't put words in my mouth. And I'm sure you have lot more experience than I at running commercial competitions, I never doubted that fact.

At the least, you need people to play on the exact same hardware with the exact same set ups to be able to compare scores. There is a reason that we bought five identical TVs for the tournament last year.

I guess you are getting at consoles or something else here, because Jamma is an industry standard.

"Real" tournaments are a lot harder to run than you may think. Good luck with your idea, and I would wholeheartedly support it, but it isn't as easy as just saying that you're going to do. I spent at least 80 hours and hundreds of dollars putting together the one-location competition last year. It would take a *lot* more to put this on nation or worldwide.

I've spent tens of thousands of dollars putting together my arcade and have held 8 local shmupmeets over the past 3 years, so what does that tell you? With at least 5 or 6 other enthusiasts like me around the world, there is no telling what we could potentially pull off.
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=41

[Hitaro]

Please explain "arcade genre", why it matters and "simple game control".

It isn't hard to figure out. At all.

Of course it isn't, but I'm asking him the question because using those expressions as an argument is so ridiculous to me that he may be talking about something completely different than I am, and I prefer getting "stupid misunderstandings" out of the way before anything.

[goatdan]

All right, a bunch of replies for now...

No one is even saying anything about the name anymore (so knock it off, I'd never heard of it prior so thats why it struck me as odd, and my description as to of why a lot of people DO have a problem with the name wasn't my personal opinion, but was me trying to explain the thought process behind the complaints). Nor is anyone trying to discourage you from this. All I'm doing is trying to provide some common sense. Its like, you showed up on the board to promote a competition thats in Milwaukee (sorry, I thought you said California earlier) but since no one really has the time to go traveling to it you're now talking about ending it. You've done it ONCE, and now you're thinking about quitting because there isn't enough interest on an internet message board? Shouldn't you at least how it goes for another few years?

I'm sorry, but I guess that I never thought that I didn't have "common sense" by doing this. I showed up on these boards last year to talk about it, and got a very similar response. The name sucks and no one wanted to go to it to support it. You yourself said as much -- that traveling would be far too much for you to consider, although one of the top four people in last year's tournament actually came from Alabama.

In fact, of the top four, if I recall correctly, only one person lived within 200 miles of the show. So, it did have at least some outside drawing power.

But here's the problem that you and others have successfully raised with me that got me to doubt it:

- No one on this message board, that while it isn't the whole group, until I started stating that perhaps we wouldn't do it showed any interest in attending this year or any year.
- No one made mention of the questions that I laid out until recently to try to improve this.

Between those two things, if some of the top shmup players do not care to either attend or help to make the event better, what is the point in doing it? If I did that, I'm not serving good shmup fans who obviously want something different that I can't deliver, I'm not serving the general public who for the most part could care less about the genre, I'm only serving my ego and I learned a long time ago that if I built a show only around what I said that I could do, no one else would care.

It was and is extremely telling to me that no one on these boards until just recently wanted to help organize or come to the show. What Super Laydock said was actually exactly what the whole goal of this was -- it would provide a reason for a bunch of people to get together, hang out, talk shmups and maybe even compete in a tournament that could one day grow to be huge.

The MGC started as an event for fans of the Atari Jaguar. That first year, we had something like 80 people who traveled from all over the United States to come to the show, and we even had people from Japan, all who were there just because they wanted to celebrate the freaking Atari Jaguar. And you know what? It was an absolute blast. One person flew in and was at the show for only ONE HOUR because of other business stuff, but said that he loved it and almost missed his next flight because of it.

Maybe it's crazy, but that was what made it so fun. The MGC has attracted a lot of groups that do the same sorts of stuff, especially at nights, and I only know the tip of the iceberg with the parties and stuff that goes on. I thought that shmup fans might want a place to get together and a reason to get together. I thought that this would be a great way to do that, and it could provide a neat way to compete in person with other fans. That's all.

[goatdan]

goatdan, you made it seem as though the Shooting Game tournament was successful last year. How many people showed up?
What makes you sure it will be unsuccessful this year?

I think that it was around 25 people that competed in the actual tournament, and they played over 100 total entries. For the first year of a tournament that had never been done, it wasn't a disaster... but at the same time, this past year the pinball tournament had something like 400 entries played and it didn't yet break even.

The pinball tournament has a great reputation, players enjoy it (I had one of those top ten players tell me that it was the best tournament finals that he had ever been in -- that it all came down to the last ball on the last game, and everyone was within striking distance). When you hear things like that, I know that next year we should have an even better turn out, and by tweaking it to be more competitive, we can have more entries played, bigger prize pools, and it will continue to grow.

If the shmup tournament doesn't have at least 50 entrants playing 200 entries this coming year, it will be hard to classify that as a disaster. If people that are good at these games and love the genre don't want to play or help make it more competitive, what chance do we have? A couple good players will show up, and all of the entrants will panic and go away.

I'd also like to say that you should be doing this to promote the genre. If you love this genre, then do it because you love it and want to see more interest in it.

I love the genre, but I'm by no stretch of the imagination rich. I work a sort-of regular job (just not with regular hours) and make okay money, but by no means enough to go out and throw it around to support things. The other organizer Gary and I have together lost about $4000 on this event overall since we have started. The last three have "made" money (combined, MGC 2004, 2006 and 2007 have "grossed" less than $100) but we enjoy doing it.

At this point in my life -- with a crappy car ($750+ in repairs the last two weeks, woot), a house, and other things, I can't put out $1000 for a tournament just because I believe in the genre. I wish that I could.

[goatdan]

Please explain "arcade genre", why it matters and "simple game control".

Arcade genre - Game based on scoring points.
Why does it matter - Tournament format wouldn't work with non-arcade genres
Simple game control - There isn't a vast difference between shmups. You have a ship. You move a ship. You shoot stuff. You avoid other stuff. Yes, they get deeper... so does pinball.

And the only reason I've read is that you've gotten advice from "top pinball players" and that "you've gone to pinball tournaments", which have nothing to do with video games.

Then read the rest of the thread. For the record, I have also held arcade game tournaments and console tournaments on many other things, and helped to plan them. I also consult as a video game tournament organizer for a couple things around town.

Pinball isn't the only thing that I have experience in by a long shot, but working with the people who helped to create an incredible type of tournament that is now in use worldwide I thought would help. Maybe you don't think so?

[jp]

Whatever dude, I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. I try to tell you to stick with it and that it might be a decent idea and you go off on some tangent. So I'm done.

[goatdan]

Looking at this as a business opportunity only, means you've already failed. We are a niche community, not a market segment.

Looking at this as an opportunity to gather people together for a good time is what I was doing. If we had 100 people show up and play 400 entries, that would do it. I'm not looking to get 10,000 people to show up.

I'd rather have 100 people who were passionate about something show up, have an absolute blast, have an excuse to hang out with friends they would otherwise only meet on the internet, and have me break even than have 10,000 people show up and have a crappy time.

I never said you were stupid, don't put words in my mouth. And I'm sure you have lot more experience than I at running commercial competitions, I never doubted that fact.

You said that you didn't want to point out the "problems in [my] thinking." Was I supposed to take that as I had an idea of what I was doing, or that you thought that I was stupid to attempt this to begin with?

I guess you are getting at consoles or something else here, because Jamma is an industry standard.

Um, yes. I apologize. We carry the line of "JAMMA Joysticks" in our online video game store (my other, other job) and gave them away at last year's tournament. I'm sorry that I didn't point that out earlier.

As for JAMMA Games, I actually have the Game Paradise sitting about 15 feet away from me right now, and I've got probably 10 other boards for that particular cab. I'd like more, but I have a tiny basement and I'm literally up to my ears in pinball machines at the moment, and I don't have lots of money.

While I'm sure no one really cares, while I like MAME, I only like dedicated cabinets in my collection.

I've spent tens of thousands of dollars putting together my arcade and have held 8 local shmupmeets over the past 3 years, so what does that tell you? With at least 5 or 6 other enthusiasts like me around the world, there is no telling what we could potentially pull off.

If you'd like, we can talk more about the pitfalls of this in PM or email (PM me and I'd be happy to give you my email address), but I do see some other issues that you'll run into.

And, by your own way of thinking, if there are only 5 or 6 other people that will be doing this, it won't be a huge tournament, but more of a local thing since you're bound to have these hundreds of miles from someone who then won't be able to attend.

There is no silver bullet for making the best competition. It's the players that make the best competitions. And if the players don't want to compete in a bigger contest, they won't. Trust me, I have *very* much learned that over the past few years...

[goatdan]

Whatever dude, I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. I try to tell you to stick with it and that it might be a decent idea and you go off on some tangent. So I'm done.

I'm not trying to go off onto a tangent, but you said that you wanted to bring some common sense to this which was (please do correct me if I'm wrong):

1) Shmup players won't or can't travel to an event like this for various reasons.
2) Shmup players don't like the name of this, because it is too broad, especially because with number one involved, the best player in the world probably won't really get crowned.

After thinking about it, I have started to agree with your way of thinking. The two problems that this gives me now:

1) If this does not attract people who would be willing to travel, it is truly a local thing and should be changed to reflect that.
2) If this is a local thing, why would I spend all that money on prizes and all the time on setting it up when I could do something that serves the audience that is recognized to be coming to the show anyway (the general public) instead.

I'm not trying to go off on a tangent, but you did a good job of showing me the issues with what I had been doing. But, I don't see the same argument for trying to hold the tournament any more if no one is interested in overcoming or helping with those first two issues.

[doctorx0079]

I think the biggest question here is, why are people on this board who travel for cons or other shows, not interested in going to this show? Why would they rather go to Anime Expo or GenCon or whatever, and not participate in a shmup tournament?

As for me, I'm too poor and busy to travel to shows like this. But that's just me.

[jp]

Whatever dude, I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. I try to tell you to stick with it and that it might be a decent idea and you go off on some tangent. So I'm done.

I'm not trying to go off onto a tangent, but you said that you wanted to bring some common sense to this which was (please do correct me if I'm wrong):

1) Shmup players won't or can't travel to an event like this for various reasons.
2) Shmup players don't like the name of this, because it is too broad, especially because with number one involved, the best player in the world probably won't really get crowned.

After thinking about it, I have started to agree with your way of thinking. The two problems that this gives me now:

1) If this does not attract people who would be willing to travel, it is truly a local thing and should be changed to reflect that.
2) If this is a local thing, why would I spend all that money on prizes and all the time on setting it up when I could do something that serves the audience that is recognized to be coming to the show anyway (the general public) instead.

I'm not trying to go off on a tangent, but you did a good job of showing me the issues with what I had been doing. But, I don't see the same argument for trying to hold the tournament any more if no one is interested in overcoming or helping with those first two issues.

OK man, this is the very basic thing I am trying to say:

Do not cancel this or not do what you want to do because of a message board. What I've been trying to say is, it doesn't MATTER what a SINGLE MESSAGE BOARD thinks about your tournament or whether or not people from a SINGLE MESSAGE BOARD will attend. If you did this last year, had a decent turn out and had fun, then don't quit doing it because some people on the INTERNET questioned the name of your shindig or because a lot of us are too busy with other things.

Keep doing it. If it grows, great, maybe as it grows in future years members from here will take notice and get into it as well. From what you've said, the whole thing is still in its infancy. Don't cancel it or quit doing what you want to do because a message board isn't jumping up to attend your SECOND shmups tournament.

'Tis all. I'm trying to encourage your convention or whatever here. Aside from my original post in this thread (which was more of "Huh?" thing than anything), I don't know why you keep thinking I'm telling you its a bad idea.

[goatdan]

Keep doing it. If it grows, great, maybe as it grows in future years members from here will take notice and get into it as well. From what you've said, the whole thing is still in its infancy. Don't cancel it or quit doing what you want to do because a message board isn't jumping up to attend your SECOND shmups tournament.

Okay, then here is the one thing that I do need from this message board.

I am a shmup fan definitely, but I have about two hours a week where I actually get to play games because I have far too much going on in my life. I probably own 50 shmups, but I know that there are people on here who own a lot more and know a lot more about them.

While last year's worked and was fun, it was obvious that we needed to tweak the games that were played and how the tournament was set up or else it wouldn't change into the future. If I can get the combined help of even a half dozen people on here to talk about games and whatnot and how we can set up the rules, that would be a huge help even if you won't be in it.

Without that help though, the tournament is going to undergo extreme growing pains as I flail around each year trying to make it work. And, with the limited time I have, I simply can't spend all of it on this when there are another 2100+ attendees that I have to worry about also making happy.

Tell everyone what -- if you are interested in helping formulate a plan for this, regardless of where you are, either post or PM me and we can set up an email list to run through it all. If there isn't much interest, I'll take that as a sign. If there is, we can ensure that the tournament will be fair, fun and I will plan on doing it again.