World's Greatest Shmup Player - Part 2

[goatdan]

Hey all,

The planning for the Midwest Gaming Classic is coming along now, and one of the things that we plan on announcing very early on is the return of the World's Greatest Shmup Player contest!

Thanks again for all the input on last year's competition. We want to improve the competition and make it even better for this year! Like I said in my last post, we now have a lot to draw on.

Here is what I'm thinking -- First, I would like to announce all of the games in advance. Like I said in last year's thread, we talked about doing this with pinball last year. Josh, the guy who won the pinball tournament actually suggested it beforehand -- he said that the reason it would be good is because there aren't a lot of people who know most of the rules to tons of games and exactly what is worth the most. By posting the name of the games beforehand, the players can at least figure out the rules by reading rule sheets or looking up emulations first.

I would like to do the same thing for Shmups, as I think the same thing applies. What does everyone here think? And yes, I know that if they only compete on five and it isn't a mystery, it doesn't show the skill in all games off, but on the flip side I think it would make it more competitive, and the best player on mystery games should theoretically be the best on known titles, right?

All right, next up -- controllers. This was something we debated over and over. I felt and still do that anything with a turbo switch just isn't right, so we limited it to the JAMMA joysticks thinking that not just did they not have turbo switches, but they all were relatively similar system to system so people shouldn't have an issue figuring out what a controller was like even if they didn't own that system. The options that I see here are:

- JAMMAs only again (although this wasn't overly popular last year)
- JAMMAs or original system controllers only (player's choice)
- Original System Controllers Only
- BYOC (bring your own controller, personally I still don't really like this one)

What do you all think? I'm falling at the second option because it would still be a cut and dried choice, and if you didn't know or like the original NES controller for instance, you could still have another choice. Any thoughts on that?

Finally, for games. I do very much want to do this by era. So, we would have one early console game, one NES / SMS era game, one "16 bit" era game, one Saturn / Playstation era game, and one newer "modern" era game. If we did this, I would want this board to help me come up with some selections. I personally own a lot of games. I own a lot of 2D shmups. I love shmups, or else I wouldn't be willing to do this Having said that, I don't have the biggest shmup collection ever I'm sure, and on certain games (*cough*blazinglasers*cough*) I didn't realize how easy it would be to marathon the game.

Along with that, I don't necessarily want to toss out games like Blazing Lazers, but I would like to think about making a rule that perhaps if a game like Blazing Lazers is picked, the score is the score at the end of the first level plus 10% for each life that is left. This in my opinion would make the competition more fierce, as players would be forced to go for points quickly in riskier situations for the payoff.

For prizes, expect a similarly sized prize vault as last year. We had a decent amount of entries, but between everything we still have at least a year and maybe two to get near breaking even, at which point we will continually drastically increase the prizes every year.

Finally, if you have any other suggestions or ideas, please contact me with them either on these boards or in PMs! As I said in the last thread too, if anyone wants to run similar tournaments, please feel free to contact me and I can help you to set them up. Even if they are run in a small setting (five friends get together and play a mini-tournament) we can learn things to improve this one!

Thanks again to all!

[Twiddle]

hahahaha are you still using that stupid title

[jp]

Wouldn't one have to travel to Japan to find the world's greatest shmup player?


Or wherever Randorama lives?

[shoe-sama]

can i just submit an inp?

lulz

[JoshF]

Hey are you from Twin Galaxies L L

[goatdan]

hahahaha are you still using that stupid title

hahaha yes. Read through last year's post where I laid out *exactly* why we decided to go with that name. If you still feel that it is so wrong that you could never support it, fine.

We spent a lot of money putting this together last year, much more than we made back. I am committed to giving this thing a shot for as long as possible. If you guys think that a shmup competition is a joke and you don't want to support it, don't come. If you guys think that the competition might have something going for it, or like it sounds like fun, or like you would like to encourage other shows to start them, then show up and check it out.

I would rather not have this thread degrade into a conversation about whether naming it the WGSPT is appropriate or not. As some people understood last year -- the name is only a way to help get it attention around town and as part of the show itself. I would like to have the help and the knowledge of people on here to really improve the tournament. If you want to do that, I'm all ears!

Thanks!

[doctorx0079]

Wouldn't one have to travel to Japan to find the world's greatest shmup player?


Or wherever Randorama lives?

Basically the organizers are trying to force them to come over. Because the organizers are so great and this isn't a charity, or something. They're trying to act like it's the World Series.

[goatdan]

Here -- Super Laydock said it last year better than I could:

Come on, stop bitching about the title and just embrace the idea.

It´s not like those "world´s strongest man" type competitions really feature the strongest man on earth anyway.
Here too it´s just to sound more interesting and get some attention from press etc. And they way this is organized it could indeed be the only tournament of it´s kind in the world (well I know of no others anyway), and with multiple "disciplines" it should be interesting to see whose most well rounded there.

Even if the real top players aren´t there now, who says they won´t be attracted by the name alone in one of the coming year´s (hopefully) events.
Not saying that they will come, but they might be something like " world´s greatest my ass! I´ll come and show them who´s daddy".
And why don´t some of the top players on the board that aren´t too far off get over there and claim the title if they think it´s "up for grabs" without the Asian players anyway? This could merely be the stepping stone to something bigger in the future, where it could grow to become what it now only claims to be (World Cyber Games had to start somewhere too, right?).

I think that people should be more open to this kind of initiative instead of slashing it down (just for the title, or lack of Clover-TAC, et all). if I´d live anywhere within traveling distance I would definitely love to attend.
I´d only make a fool out of myself by participating, but I´d surely watch with interest. And it´s always nice to meet people sharing the same interest, right!?

As it is now I hope that enough people support this initiative and it will become a success. That way it hopefully gets a chance to grow bigger in the coming years and live up to it´s name someday.

[shoe-sama]

I want to beat the crud outta DJI

I can submit inps rite?

[goatdan]

And I tell you what -- if we all decide that it is stupid, I'll be happy to cancel it. Like I said, it didn't make it's cost back last year. We don't project it breaking even until 2010 right now. I do it because I like the genre and think that it lends itself very well to level competition, much like pinball tournaments.

By the way, I went to a pinball tournament last weekend. I know someone else who traveled to one in August in which the winner got $10,000. There are pinball tournaments nearly every weekend. *That* is what this whole thing was based on. And the people who ran the first ever worldwide pinball tournament have helped me figure out stuff for the Shmup one.

If you'd rather only play shmups in competitions in the way of online rankings, this doesn't make any sense as a tournament or a goal, and if this site which I consider to be some of the biggest fans tells me that there is no reason to do this because you aren't interested, that's fine. I don't need to spend hundreds of dollars more for the next couple years to try to get the tournament off the ground. I can use that for other stuff -- pinball, a Halo tournament, whatever.

The pinball stuff is an absolute blast though, and I'd love to see the same thing happen in Shmups. I'm willing to try it. Is it really not worth it? Most of the people who showed up last year thought it was worth it, but if no one is more interested this year, I'll move on to other aspects of planning.

Thanks all. Glad this came up from so many people so quickly, as I don't need to spend lots of time on organizing it if no one thinks it would be fun or worthwhile.

[Rob]

The people commenting are just looking for a rise. I'm sure they'd go if it was within 100 miles rather than 500 or 1000+. California seems to be the most frequent location of meet-ups here.

[sven666]

- JAMMAs only again (although this wasn't overly popular last year)
- JAMMAs or original system controllers only (player's choice)
- Original System Controllers Only
- BYOC (bring your own controller, personally I still don't really like this one)

i dont understand this at all, if youre only going to play JAMMA standard games you cant use much else than the cabinets controls?

..or are you going to play JAMMA games on a supergun and let people bring their own supergun modded controllers?, I dont think that idea would work at all unless your SG has some really standard type controllers (like playstation or saturn), which nearly none do... and if it does it doesnt really make sense that people should bring their own PS1 controller anyways, just have a couple of on standby.

and yeah i think its a great thing youre doing (id go in a heartbeat if i didnt live so far away), people bitching about the event have their head up their arse, who cares about the stupid name of it just go there and enjoy some arcade-shmups action ffs!

[Plasmo]

SWY

[Rob]

DJI

[BBH]

can i just submit an inp?

lulz

[Icarus]

..or are you going to play JAMMA games on a supergun and let people bring their own supergun modded controllers?, I dont think that idea would work at all unless your SG has some really standard type controllers (like playstation or saturn), which nearly none do... and if it does it doesnt really make sense that people should bring their own PS1 controller anyways, just have a couple of on standby.!

Unless you use a PS to Neo adaptor for the supergun, in which case you can then use any kind of PS-compatible controller, from a Saturn-style pad to a Hori RAP.

A new kind of party: BYOBMAC! (Bring your own booze, munchies and controllers!)

Also (comment directed at goatdan), I do embrace the idea. However your "World's Greatest Shmup Player" got owned by 18 other players in this years STGT. Perhaps drop the "World's" bit from the title since you don't exactly incorporate the rest of the known world into the scope of the competition (yet), as that's the primary gripe with some of the people on this forum.
That, and the fact that you'd have to travel a very long distance to get to such a (currently) small tournament.

[Rob]

Criticism of the title was well covered last year. Get over it, dudes. Just see it as an "official" meet up with trophies.

[shoe-sama]

Ceph wins

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 035#240035

[VorpalEdge]

Criticism of the title was well covered last year. Get over it, dudes. Just see it as an "official" meet up with trophies.

But bashing Twin Galaxies and anything associated with them is so fun and easy!

On another note, I would be surprised if this breaks even. Ever. I kind of like the idea, but it's halfway across the country and the name grates like chalk screeching on a board.

[stuntman]

C'mon! The guy's going to some effort/expense to do something for people who like shmups. I think it's a shame he's met with such negativity just because of the competition name, which I'm sure was never intended to be taken so damn seriously

[shoe-sama]

KVJASCHASJVHASJF TWIN GALAXIES

[goatdan]

All right, long post but this has definitely made me think a lot. Thanks for that, I think... Anyway:

The question about the controllers is because we are (at least currently) doing this competition on consoles. I would love to get more arcade cabs there, but I don't own enough to be used for a full out shmup tourney on them at this point in time. If the tournament looked like it would ever break even or make money, we would invest in that sort of infrastructure.

The way that this is being talked about on here, I am now seriously completely re-thinking doing it. First off, I am not associated directly with Twin Galaxies, although I do know them and they were willing to help promote this to lend credibility to this in the mainstream media. If that is a problem with everyone, fine -- go run your own show and try to promote something similar and get anyone outside of these boards to notice. I'm not trying to be mean, but it is quite apparent from the fact that shmup tourneys aren't popular in any way in the states that no one else is doing a better job.

I'll also say that our show isn't the biggest in the world, and we aren't trying to be. But for what we do, we do get attention for it. We have been listed in Game Informer's calendar, we had a large segment on the Milwaukee FOX station last year and a full page spread in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel newspaper the year before. In our area, this is catching on -- and believe it or not, some people travel from all over for the show. Last year, four people made the trip from Japan. I think that we have probably had people attend from at least 40 of the 50 US States and most of the provinces in Canada.

So -- the shmup tournament was just one part of the show, but it is one part of the show which we thought there would be a lot of interest in, and could perhaps spark interest in a new group in going.

In a nutshell, the reason that you go to our show for the most part is to find out people with similar likes in gaming and hang out and meet new and old friends. Everything else that goes along with it -- the competition, the vendors, the displays, etc -- is there in my opinion for people to do with the people they meet when they show up.

If people here aren't interested in meeting each other in real life and / or competing with each other, there is little use in me investing time and money into a cause where people won't come out for it.

For those of you who apparently don't understand, the goal of this is NOT a similar thing to the STGT that was held on here. The complete point is to compete _in person_ and to have the pressure of having to make some excellent runs in with no second chances, while people who you now have met watch and cheer you on.

The people who competed last year and spoke about it generally said very good things about it, and thought that the style was great, but it wasn't enough for us to go and start pouring tons of resources into it.

Some notes about the pinball tournament that this is based on, since I think it may be important for you all to understand that too, and why we looked at that as a model.

First, the two people who arranged the first World Pinball Championships *are tournament judges at our show for the pinball tournament*. They helped me put this all together last year. They have *nothing* to do with Twin Galaxies, and the *entire* pinball world of pinball competition has almost nothing to do with Twin Galaxies, although Twin Galaxies does recognize their events.

By the way, the "World" Pinball Championships are held in Pittsburgh every year, even though the center of the pinball universe is and has always been Chicago (oddly, it seems no one in pinball complains). Since the Pinball World Championships have started, they have grown every year. This past year's prize package for the pinball world championships was $36,100.

But people are willing to travel for that. I totally understand that at *this point in time* the prizes are not going to be enough to bring people from around the world to play in just this tournament, and that is why there is another 19,800 square feet of show floor full of other things -- so hopefully the tournament is just one part of the reason that you come.

Of the top 10 players ranked in the world in pinball, four have shown both years at the Midwest Gaming Classic to compete. The winner of the World Pinball Championship from 2006 also played at the MGC in 2006. We have now invested over $10,000 to improve this tournament by purchasing machines that will be used exclusively for it from now on. As of this moment in time, not including the cost of machines, the pinball tournament hasn't even broken even as a stand alone event. But, we have tons of interest in it. People come from all over to play in it.

Considering that I do think of this place as the number one source for active US shmup players, I do *not* intend on putting on a tournament where we have ten people show up. That isn't the point.

People asked us when we launched the pinball tournament in 2006 to do something similar for video in 2007. After a lot of thinking, we decided that the best thing to do would be to have some sort of similar format to the pinball tournament in one genre. We picked shmup because it has a rabid fan-base, is easy for everyone to understand the basic principal, the play mechanics from game to game are rather transferable, and quite frankly because shmups are one of my favorite genres in games.

---

Since all that I have done is defend myself on here both last year and this year, and because it seems that even with the relative success of the tournament from last year that there is no additional interest in attending or helping to make it grow, at this point in time I guess that I have to say that we do not intend on having it return.

I'll admit I'm disappointed -- I thought that with everything that we went through last year that people were generally willing to give it a shot to see if it would grow, but with this much negativity about it on like I said, the site that I consider to be the ultimate place for shmups, at this point I don't see it growing, and I have no intention to dump money on something that I'm the only shmuck who wants to see happen.

[GaijinPunch]

In terms of kilobytes, goatdan's posting volume rivals any user here w/ over 1000 posts.

[Dave_K.]

How many players were in the competition last year?

[jp]

I don't think there's a point in not holding this event just because a bunch of people on a message board that wouldn't be going to it anyways have a problem with the name (myself included).

If you had a good turnout last year and were happy with it, then keep doing it. It doesn't matter what this message board says since we aren't participating and wouldn't even know about the event if you hadn't shown up and said something about it.

I think the only problem most people have with the name is the idea of declaring someone the "World Champion" of shmups when, in reality, they'd probably be a mid-tier player around here and not even hold a candle to most Japanese players.

But like I said, its your party, do what you want to do. Its a good cause, and if it got bigger could do a lot for the genre in the west. So... keep at it.

[sven666]

I don't think there's a point in not holding this event just because a bunch of people on a message board that wouldn't be going to it anyways have a problem with the name (myself included).

hes trying to attract real shmups players dumbass thats why hes asking on these boards, for people who might be interested in a real life tournament this is a golden opportunity to voice your ideas and make a difference in building such an event, you dont even have to spend any money, hell you dont even have to attend!
"pro" shmupsplayers arent going to walk in straight off teh street just as pro pinball players dont, you have to attract them somehow...


i baffles my mind so many complain about the name of it, isnt it obvious hes calling it that to just catch the publics attention, whats wrong with you morons???

[PROMETHEUS]

I don't think there's a point in not holding this event just because a bunch of people on a message board that wouldn't be going to it anyways have a problem with the name (myself included).

If you had a good turnout last year and were happy with it, then keep doing it. It doesn't matter what this message board says since we aren't participating and wouldn't even know about the event if you hadn't shown up and said something about it.

I think the only problem most people have with the name is the idea of declaring someone the "World Champion" of shmups when, in reality, they'd probably be a mid-tier player around here and not even hold a candle to most Japanese players.

But like I said, its your party, do what you want to do. Its a good cause, and if it got bigger could do a lot for the genre in the west. So... keep at it.

I second this~ Everything sounds great about the event you're organizing except for the title indeed. Is there no other way to attract people than calling it this ? I'm pretty sure you could find a non ridiculous yet attractive name.

Anyway it's probably not very important as I don't think the title would make someone, who is interested in attending and who also thinks the title sounds stupid, change his mind about coming anyway. For example, I would probably come if it was closer ^_^

[moozooh]

goatdan, you have to realize that generally, the smaller and the more focused a gaming community is, the more skepticism, nitpicking and probably elitist attitude you're going to receive from it if coming in the wrong way. It's not very good, but it's to be expected — don't let this disappoint you.

However, the name could be part of the reason of low overall success: it might be that it's too loud to be considered serious by good players (as opposed to the casual folk who goes there to have fun with games), so what they think if it might be something along the lines of "oh awesome, another local best of the best of the world tourney, what haven't I seen there". STGT is somewhat similar, but what makes it easier to participate in, is the fact that you have full control of your own time and resource investments.

[VorpalEdge]

Think of it this way.

You are receiving nothing but the same sort of criticism that you received before you held the first tournament. If you'll notice, I haven't seen anything new: that must mean that nobody has anything decisive to say about the quality of the tournament themselves. Some of the rules were comment-worthy (rotating scheme of unknown games, for one), but I doubt anybody here knows if those were good or bad ideas, and that's why people have stopped short of mentioning them. We just don't like the naming scheme and a couple of the realities with hosting a tournament that doesn't happen simultaneously in 1000 cities worldwide - that is, not everyone can attend, etc etc.

If you magically expected that criticism to go away because the event did not collapse in on itself, you're a bit too optimistic. However, if you think that said criticism, which is the exact same stuff that did not stop the first event, is going to hinder the second where you have more stuff going for you than before... I'd say you're a bit too pessimistic. Even if I'm one of the ones who's still ticked off by the naming scheme, it is demonstrable that not everyone else is.

Just change the name already (I was quite serious in my post in this thread earlier: bashing twin galaxies really *is* too easy) and expect to have at least as much fun as last time. If this next one doesn't do as well as the first, I'd say you're justified in letting go. However, the reaction from this thread is hardly decent justification.

[jp]

I don't think there's a point in not holding this event just because a bunch of people on a message board that wouldn't be going to it anyways have a problem with the name (myself included).

hes trying to attract real shmups players dumbass thats why hes asking on these boards, for people who might be interested in a real life tournament this is a golden opportunity to voice your ideas and make a difference in building such an event, you dont even have to spend any money, hell you dont even have to attend!
"pro" shmupsplayers arent going to walk in straight off teh street just as pro pinball players dont, you have to attract them somehow...


i baffles my mind so many complain about the name of it, isnt it obvious hes calling it that to just catch the publics attention, whats wrong with you morons???

Would you go out and buy some reading comprehension? Please? I was encouraging the dude to not give up on it and to ignore the previous criticisms. I said no one from here would be attending because IT ISN'T WITHIN TRAVELING DISTANCE FOR 99% OF THE PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD!!!

So yes, learn to understand what you're reading before name calling mkay? Otherwise, you wind up being the "dumbass".