I dunno...I've been playing shmups for 20+ years and it's always been my favorite genre...I even have an Astro City cab and some shmup PCBs...but after reading this forum...I'm having doubts as to whether I'm a "true" shmup fan...
I've never 1cced a shmup. I've beaten a lot of shmups in the "normal" way of course...mostly on consoles where they give u a limited # of continues...
I don't play for "score". I have no idea about chaining, collecting, blah blah blah. I just like to blow stuff up and kill bosses. I guess I'm more of a fan of the old-school shmups than the newer ones.
I don't have a fascination with everything Cave-related...
So I dunno...can someone like me be considered a true hardcore shmup fan? Do I qualify?
From what youve said, of course your a true shmup fan. The 1ccing only comes if that is what you really want (Or are good enough that it happens naturally).
If you enjoy shmups... then by definition... you are a shmup fan.
I like horror movies. I don't make horror movies, and I don't write elongated indepth reviews on horror movies, but I'm still a horror movie fan because I enjoy them.
There are people who enjoy football. They're still fans of football, despite the fact that they'll never be in the NFL.
i somehow doubt you're above 20 years old, and frankly, making a topic asking others to tell you if you're a true something or not is acceptable (i guess) for a teenager, but if you're over 20...man
on another note, why does EVERY FUCKIN THREAD i click contain at least one or two lines speaking against cave? is it an unwritten rule here that you have to bash the current most sucessful shmup developper in order to be cool or what?
What the hell? "True Shmup Fan"? What does that even mean?
It's not like its written down somewhere.
The white clouds floating on the great blue sky
And the boiling red blood shed in fierce gaming
Those who give up halfway through
Their battered bodies will never forget!
Segata Sanshiro, Segata Sanshiro! Sega Saturn... shiro!
The fact that you've never 1cc'ed anything and hate score systems shows that you don't play seriously, a no no in my book. The way to get the most enjoyment out of a shooter is to dedicate enough time to it that you can beat it in 1 credit.
I've only learned this recently, so I don't have too many 1cc's under my belt either.
And yes, just because Cave didn't make anything for Dreamcast doesn't equate to them being a shitty developer. They get dissed a lot because people don't like the ps2, and don't like arcade pcbs that they 'cant afford' but their games are some of the best.
I hate when people talk about 'I don't like company X shmups' as though they're all the same, all it shows is that you have no idea what you're talking about. Name any two shmups by any shooter company and I can list specific gameplay differences.
Neon wrote:The fact that you've never 1cc'ed anything and hate score systems shows that you don't play seriously, a no no in my book. The way to get the most enjoyment out of a shooter is to dedicate enough time to it that you can beat it in 1 credit.
I've only learned this recently, so I don't have too many 1cc's under my belt either.
And yes, just because Cave didn't make anything for Dreamcast doesn't equate to them being a shitty developer. They get dissed a lot because people don't like the ps2, and don't like arcade pcbs that they 'cant afford' but their games are some of the best.
I hate when people talk about 'I don't like company X shmups' as though they're all the same, all it shows is that you have no idea what you're talking about. Name any two shmups by any shooter company and I can list specific gameplay differences.
Compare the differences between Hyper Duel, Thunder Force III, and Blast Wind.
Then think of it the same way with DDP, ESPgaluda, and Pro Gear. Or Gunbird, Strikers 1945, and Sengoku Blaede. While DDP uses chaining kills with your laser and Feveron focuses on catching disco men, they're still incredibly similar gameplay wise, and as far as I am concerned, you really aren't missing much if you play one and pass up on the other. Same goes for most of the Cave games I've played.
And don't get me started on Psikyo. Yes, they make fun games. But Gunbird is Strikers 1945 with different sprites, and Sengoku Blaede is basically Gunbird with horizontal alignment and with samurai and ninjas.
*Note: I just used Gunbird, Strikers 1945, and Sengoku Blaede to prove my point, 3 games which are better on the Saturn no matter how you cut it, so no magic "You're biased and wrong" cards here.*
And quit being so damn paranoid about other people's opinions. Yes, everyone on this board hates the PS2, obviously, they must, since they don't agree with you. In fact, everyone on this board is ME, just with a different SN.
In fact, its actually kind of hypocritical for you to keep bringing up how everyone's opinions is affected by consoles, when you're basically the same damn way about Nintendo's machines.
But Gunbird is Strikers 1945 with different sprites
Not true...Strikers has a different scoring system. Ever notice how the gold point value changes depending on the shine?
Then think of it the same way with DDP, ESPgaluda, and Pro Gear
Progear uses the gem mechanic, which I don't claim to be an expert on. But basically from my understanding you must collect the rings after destroying an enemy with the normal shot, then when the value gets up to a green gem, you let fly with the heavy shot, then collect as many of the green gems as possible. Adds a lot of depth.
I haven't played much galuda so I won't comment on it. 'rade has the secondary shot/'get close multiplier' (not sure of the official term here).
DDP has the two shot-types per ship as well as stage long chains.
3 games which are better on the Saturn no matter how you cut it, so no magic "You're biased and wrong" cards here.*
Yep. But other games of theirs are better on other systems...
Maybe I've somehow misinterpreted your bias, but the point remains...why can't we all just stop the fanboyism and judge games based on their merits and not the console?
I don't hate Nintendo consoles. NES is great. GBA has some ok games...
My problem is mostly with this guy starting this thread to find out if he's a 'true' shmup fan (the phrase is meaningless...show me the universal definition of a true shmup fan please) just to troll about Cave, 1 credit clearing games, and scoring systems.[/quote]
Neon wrote:
Maybe I've somehow misinterpreted your bias, but the point remains...why can't we all just stop the fanboyism and judge games based on their merits and not the console?
Yes... yes I think you did misinterpret it. And as far as I can tell, no one on this board judges games by their console (maybe I don't pay close enough attention?), but rather, some do by company. Sure, I'll admit I'll have an opinion formed if I hear of a new Cave/Psikyo game, but this is because of past experiences with their games and my feelings on those games. Same goes for Tecno Soft, I love 'em, and before I owned all their games I got very excited at the idea of trying out a new one. Same sorta goes for Treasure, though they haven't been up to their usual standard lately as far as I can tell.
jp - good point on that last statement. Quite right about Tool fans.
It's sort of like the "True Metal" mentality some have. If you don't have the long hair and the clothing look, and you don't listen to all metal, all the time (not including NuMetal or anything in the hardcore realm, or anything else so-called "True Metal" fans deem unworthy of the name of metal), then you're not really a metal fan. That's a crock. I'm a metal-head the same as anyone else. I just don't see metal as the be-all-end-all of music. It's my fav style, but I listen to classical, gospel, disco, etc. as well because I like other styles.
Same goes for shooter games. I've only 1CC'd 2 shmups so far (though I'm working on DonPachi). I own a great deal of shmups and have been playing them for as long as you have (counting early Galaga marathons). I make no bones about being a "true shmup fan" because it's my fav genre. Just because I don't own a cabinet, refuse to turn my TV on it's side for vert shmups to TATE, and play other genres of games quite frequently has nothing to do w/ the fact that I'm a shmup fan. I may not be as hardcore as, say, Mr Longhair or somebody who spends a great deal more time w/ his/her shmups than I do, but that makes me no less a shmup fan. Perhaps just less hardcore in a sense, or perhaps just more realistic since I don't have the same amount of time to dedicate to this particular hobby as some do (my boss practically works me to death sometimes, notice I'm typing this at the office after a 12-hour shift).
Don't worry about what others think of your "shmuppiness" - it doesn't matter. If you enjoy shmups as much as you say you do (and as much as you post on this forum will testify), you're as true a shmup fan as anyone else on this board. End of story.
now, lets not even analyse scoring mechanics or other shit.
just take a look at DDP, then take a look at guwange, and then, progear, play them.
i rest my case.
basically, all cave games follow a specific genre THEY have created (a genre plenty of other companies follow nodaways)
a game cenetered around scoring mechanics + colored bullet hell + movement alteration depending of weapon usage = cave game, thats as much simmilarity as they all have, and judging how much inspiration other companies took from cave, i think the formula is good. that and their games are more refined as far as level design is concerned, rather than "events" and scenarized levels, which may not satisfy the rabid r-type or thunderforcee fan, i understand that, and i prefer the former, since there's only so much times i can watch a ship descend from sky to earth, or a cool dragon boss making his appearence, before the novelty fades off, while a good level design might take forever to master and fully enjoy.
also, some games are simmilar in design and style (on top of my head, ketsui/DOJ and galuda/mushi, that's all the examples that come to mind) but they're bound to have simmilarities since they are made by the same people..
you may like or not like cave for all i care, but its been a trend lately to bash them for no reason, and its quite annoying, especially when its gratuitous.
as for myself, im not really a cave "fan" per se, but im satisfied with what they currently do and hope they continue.
the thing i hate about non-casual gamers is that most of people are exited and fantasize about any announcement, or stuff they cant have, then when its in their hands theey end up dissapointed, no matteer how good the product in question is.
a fine example would be nintendo GBA, when it was about to come out, everyone and their mom knew what it was going to be, and was like "omg a portable SNES, that will be super HARDCORE, we will be able to play genesis and snes classics everywhere"
then, shortly after it came out, the "omg nintendo lazy stop porting snes games and franchises!!!!"
now look how the gba ended (at leasst as far as europe is concerned), a pile of franchises for kids (pokemon, yugioh) and a whole bunch of "mini" versions off mainstream games (versions that always more or less sucks) umm...nintendon't. i generalize, there's good games on the gba, but way to much mediocre shit too.
that's the problem, people are never satisfied (or at least happy) with what they have, they'd rather fantasize about what they dont, and end up disappointed.
that and dangun and dodonpachi aree no way interchangable, but that's just me.
i think what neon was trying to say is, since cave developps on ps2, they lost their "hardcore underground raw" appeal, they get blamed by idiots who dont even play shmups, yet praise ikaruga like its the messiah (despite playing it twice since they bought it, but man, they watched some replays so they must know it all)
rant over, yo.
ps: i dont want to be prosecutedt to the full extent of the jam because of my poor english, i will try hard neext time.
FRO wrote:jp - good point on that last statement. Quite right about Tool fans.
It's sort of like the "True Metal" mentality some have. If you don't have the long hair and the clothing look, and you don't listen to all metal, all the time (not including NuMetal or anything in the hardcore realm, or anything else so-called "True Metal" fans deem unworthy of the name of metal), then you're not really a metal fan. That's a crock. I'm a metal-head the same as anyone else. I just don't see metal as the be-all-end-all of music. It's my fav style, but I listen to classical, gospel, disco, etc. as well because I like other styles.
Same goes for shooter games. I've only 1CC'd 2 shmups so far (though I'm working on DonPachi). I own a great deal of shmups and have been playing them for as long as you have (counting early Galaga marathons). I make no bones about being a "true shmup fan" because it's my fav genre. Just because I don't own a cabinet, refuse to turn my TV on it's side for vert shmups to TATE, and play other genres of games quite frequently has nothing to do w/ the fact that I'm a shmup fan. I may not be as hardcore as, say, Mr Longhair or somebody who spends a great deal more time w/ his/her shmups than I do, but that makes me no less a shmup fan. Perhaps just less hardcore in a sense, or perhaps just more realistic since I don't have the same amount of time to dedicate to this particular hobby as some do (my boss practically works me to death sometimes, notice I'm typing this at the office after a 12-hour shift).
Don't worry about what others think of your "shmuppiness" - it doesn't matter. If you enjoy shmups as much as you say you do (and as much as you post on this forum will testify), you're as true a shmup fan as anyone else on this board. End of story.
I stopped caring about what others think so much a long time ago, and believe me I couldnt live any other way with the range of contrasting interests I have. The people I mix with that relate to each of my interests would most likely hate each other if they met. I've learned to ignore the trends in each interest too, and I've found that people respect that, especially if you dress how the fuck you want and not as the typical urban 'trendy' spray painter or junglist would. I honestly couldnt give a fuck if someone thought i wasnt a true shmupper or a true <insert whatever here> at heart, do what you wanna do, act/dress how you want to dress and tell whoever disses to get the fuck out.
I honestly couldnt give a fuck if someone thought i wasnt a true shmupper or a true <insert whatever here> at heart, do what you wanna do, act/dress how you want to dress and tell whoever disses to get the fuck out.
on another note, why does EVERY FUCKIN THREAD i click contain at least one or two lines speaking against cave? is it an unwritten rule here that you have to bash the current most sucessful shmup developper in order to be cool or what?
you wanna know the reason why people bash Cave?
While DDP uses chaining kills with your laser and Feveron focuses on catching disco men, they're still incredibly similar gameplay wise
bah, after reading the posts just below mine, i realize jp doesnt like cave shmups.
its like me pumping into a rock board and saying all metal is the same, yea.
tho, id like to see where all those "cave fanboys" are, from what ive seen, most of the cave fans dont post anymore besides maybe neon,me and some others (chtimi?) while i see cave bashing in every topic.
on another note, why does EVERY FUCKIN THREAD i click contain at least one or two lines speaking against cave? is it an unwritten rule here that you have to bash the current most sucessful shmup developper in order to be cool or what?
you wanna know the reason why people bash Cave?
While DDP uses chaining kills with your laser and Feveron focuses on catching disco men, they're still incredibly similar gameplay wise
There you have it. It´s called ignorance.
Forgive me, my opinion is different from yours, oh Lord, what have I done? How dare I state an opinion on a message board. I should be flogged for my insolence. How DARE I not suck the digital cock of Cave at their every beck and call? Oh woe am I.
The only ignorance I've noticed on these boards as of late is from people being jackasses because others try to express their damn views and they're different from those of the "l337 Cave fans".
The vagrant wrote:tho, id like to see where all those "cave fanboys" are, from what ive seen, most of the cave fans dont post anymore besides maybe neon,me and some others (chtimi?) while i see cave bashing in every topic.
Matter of perception. If you're looking for it it's always there. I see a Mushihimesama pre-orders topic with near 300 responses and 5000 views in a few days. More than Trizeal or GWG got in months, and people have actually played them.
Forgive me, my opinion is different from yours, oh Lord, what have I done? How dare I state an opinion on a message board. I should be flogged for my insolence. How DARE I not suck the digital cock of Cave at their every beck and call? Oh woe am I.
the sentence I quoted was no opinion, but simply a wrong observation. Just because you don´t notice differences doesn´t mean there aren´t any. No one tries forcing you to play games you don´t like. It´s just very common that people who bash Cave games don´t really know them. Claiming they all play the same is a very poor attempt at giving reasons for a dislike, because it immediately betrays ignorance.
jp: since you said that dangun and DDP were alike, a heavily opinionated statement seeing as how one should not have played these games much to come up with that conclusion, and how you dont like cave games to begin with, the word ignorance is fitting.
not that occasional ignorance doesnt happen to everyone, we should just avoid beeing retards.
rob: that's a bad example, there was multiple trizeal topics, and both of these games have recieved so-so coverage from people that played them, not to mention track record for triangle service isnt quite of the same caliber as off cave (xii stag vs shitload of stuff)
now mushi, none expected a port, not only that but half the posts are either off topic discussing the high rez stuff, or people debating wetheer the port is real or not.
circumstances arent the same.
Not played them much? I got to stage 4 on both of them.
Granted, I wasn't doing a "super indepth I'm going to go write a Strategy as soon as I'm done playing in 5 hours" run, but I still felt that I at least had a decent grasp of the gameplay style each game had, and it was my opinion that it was very similar to the other Cave games I had played at the time.
To you two, apparently catching disco men and chaining using a big f'ing laser is different enough such that, if I were to take say... Border Down, and remake it with falling disco men, some new enemies, different backgrounds, and a few different bullet patterns, then it would be enough to warrant it being a "new game".
Whatever. Denying that all Cave games don't have a basic "gameplay style" about them, is ignorant in itself. If you sat me down in front of ANY shmup, I'd probably be able to tell you whether or not Cave had made it, even if I had never played/seen/heard of it before. The same goes for Psikyo. And while you "uber l337 Cave fans" have apparently picked all their games apart to the point where any difference is enough to warrant crying bullshit on someone trying to say something as simple as "Cave games are mostly very similar and you could probably be fine playing a few and not playing the rest," the fact of the matter is, the rest of us, who aren't "uber l337 Cave fans", can easily tell if a game is made by Cave, because, like I said earlier, most Cave games just have a basic gameplay style that Cave just uses, and because of this some of us just don't care for 'em.
I gave Cave a shot. I played DP, DDP, DDP: DOJ, ESPgaluda, ESPrade, Pro Gear, and Dangun Feveron, and I felt they were all very similar and that I wouldn't have missed much had I cut out over half of the games. Thats my opinion. Call it ignorant all you want, but thats not really going to change anything.
(Or are good enough that it happens naturally).
