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My retarded panic bombing habits spoilt this score a bit but I am still faily happy with it
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
Was such an enjoyable game and its hard to believe that some people actually hate it!!
It is their loss....
Not a problem, I was hoping you'd reply.The Coop wrote:Not bashing you here, BulletMagnet. Just trying to expand on my points a bit...
Noted, forgot those.And the fact that the weapon power down from dying has been changed, and that there are more levels to the missiles and main gun.
Okay, that makes sense.I was thinking more along the lines of getting points for taking riskier paths, for trying to pick apart the bosses, and for going after those tough to grab orbs that control the mid-bosses. Also, most of those big end bonuses can't be gotten unless you take risks. This isn't a Compile game
"Blinking out" is more of a hardware problem, I'm more concerned with stuff you can't see against the background (or when it gets mixed in with your own shots) - an early example are the tiny gray needles that the prawn-ish mid-sized enemies toss at you in the first stage (among others). Not completely impossible to see, but when there are several of them tossing them at you at once later on, not to mention other enemies' shots, it's a real pain. I can say with confidence that there are several points at which I've had no idea what's killed me. Maybe the scaling/whatever issues on the PS2 port are partly responsible, but not completely.While I can't speak on your experiences, I can say that every death I've had in DG, I've seen what killed me... be it a bullet, a small outcropping on the foreground, or a speedy enemy that came flying up from below. I've never once had a bullet or enemy blink out on me ala Blazing Star.
Heh, I won't deny that I personally prefer a more lenient hitbox and more stuff to dodge as opposed to the opposite, but a lot of spots, particularly at the bosses, seemed pretty much completely undodgeable to me - some of the earlier ones you could possibly just pin on my lack of experience, but I still recall a superplay of Storm Causer that I watched, in which the guy dances circles around the boss for most of the fight (mostly using safe spots), but at one point can't completely avoid a certain bullet pattern - he positions himself dead center between the two farthest-apart bullets and still takes a hit (if he hadn't had a shield, it'd have been an unavoidable instant kill). And if this guy can't wiggle his way out of it, I thought, what chance does someone like me have?I've also never had a problem with the game's hit box, as I've squeezed through some very tight spreads and situations without getting hit... and I could even see my ship partially touched by what I was dodging. Perhaps this whole "modern day shmups having a two pixel hit box" thing has dulled your old-school dodging abilities a little?![]()
It's not the fact that you power down in itself that bugs me, but rather how absolutely vital staying powered-up is, I suppose - for one thing, certain enemies pretty much require your shot to be at least partially poweed up to have a prayer of passing them (to whit, encountering some gunpods hidden in particularly tricky spots behind obstacles without a wave shot, or those starfish things without a piercing shot...and that's not even mentioning the bosses). On another note, unless I'm missing something in Rando's guide, dying doesn't lower the rank at all - if you enter a stage powered up enough to activate the "high" rank, it stays that way no matter how dinky of a pea-shooter you end up stuck with halfway through. As I said, sometimes it seems that after dying you might as well just give up.So many shmups punish you with a powering down upon death, I don't see why this game would be one to piss you of with it. I've played very few shmups that didn't suck away firepower when you died. It's just part of the genre, for better or for worse. Even games like the almighty DoDonPachi drop your weapon power when you bite the dayglo-colored bullet.
"Challenge" isn't really the problem, "repetition" is more like it...especially if you've got a weak weapon (and ESPECIALLY if the rank's up) you'll be seeing those same attack patterns for minutes at a time before you finally blow a piece off of the thing and change things up a bit (i.e. add another layer or two to those same attacks). Not to mention the "you're still at high rank even with weak weapons" thing mentioned earlier, which make some bosses, without proper weaponry, incredibly frustrating.And well, bosses are supposed to be hard. If you can kill it fast without a good fight (or a serious adjustment like what we've got here), then it wasn't much of a boss. The fact that DG's bosses do put up a fight when playing the game normally is one of DG's positives in my opinion
Abandoned?BulletMagnet wrote:Perhaps I'm the odd man out here, but I remain thankful that these "design decisions" have been largely abandoned by now (disclaimer - no, I am not saying that I wish horis would disappear forever). As far as I'm concerned, this didn't happen by chance.
Darius Gaiden has quite possibly the most obvious and easiest to manipulate rank system I've ever seen, and if you're even partly familiar with a Raizing system (with regards to weapon limitation, see Soukygurentai and Garegga) then DG should present no problems.BulletMagnet wrote:No other rank setup (Raizing included) has ever made me feel more like I'm being completely robbed, and that after dying once I ought to just reset.
How can any boss in DG be long and drawn out? Even with excessive milking, a typical boss fight for me lasts less than a minute and a half. If you're taking more than that to knock off something like Prickly Angler or Double Header then you're doing something extremely wrong.BulletMagnet wrote:Ah, the spectre of the ever-elusive "win button" fantasy that's ruining hardcore shmupdom again, been awhile since that one's surfaced. Come on Icky, be reasonable - something doesn't have to be dull, drawn-out, and frustrating to be a satisfying challenge. Frankly, I'm not sure how the two could ever be one and the same.
Because you're you, BM, and criticising people for their tastes in games is what you always do, whether you realise it or not. Even when you don't directly aim a comment at someone, you somehow manage to disguise it via eloquent rewording.BulletMagnet wrote:And I am especially careful to avoid criticizing members, or their tastes, instead of the games themselves. What anyone else likes to play has no effect on me - I do not see this, however, as a reason to not say what I think, in a civil manner. I'm not sure why you constantly detect personal slights coming from me, and act as if I'm some sort of stealthy, fork-tongued rabble-rouser who only you seem able to see through (the rest of the forum's under my spell, apparently, and doesn't know when it's being insulted).
That I was, seeing as those things making a comeback would be an enormous and completely unnecessary disappointment in my eyes. Thankfully, however, my concern seems to have been largely a false alarm, as more info's come out.Icarus wrote:Abandoned?
You were complaining about the very same things in the Death Smiles thread.
It's simple, yes, but far less forgiving than most any Raizing shmup as far as I'm concerned. High weapon power is so vital here that almost any benefits of powering down are negated by being ill-equipped for particular challenges, especially later on.Darius Gaiden has quite possibly the most obvious and easiest to manipulate rank system I've ever seen, and if you're even partly familiar with a Raizing system (with regards to weapon limitation, see Soukygurentai and Garegga) then DG should present no problems.
I suppose it bears repeating that I had to play without autofire. Even at that, even in superplays the player spends half the battle staying out of the way of near-undodgeable attacks, which usually means hanging in safe spots where you can't hit the boss until the coast is clear. In any event, few games I can recall have ever made me feel like their boss battles were so much drudgery.How can any boss in DG be long and drawn out? Even with excessive milking, a typical boss fight for me lasts less than a minute and a half. If you're taking more than that to knock off something like Prickly Angler or Double Header then you're doing something extremely wrong.
learn 2 play?Either that or your weapons are underpowered, in which case, use a bomb or something.
P.S. Mouth of boss = weakpoint. Hit it for MASSIVE DAMAGE. ;P
Uh...I'm sorry?Because you're you, BM...
So am I too thick to realize what I'm doing, or too slick for anyone else to realize it? It'd be a tough feat to pull off being so dumb and so insidious at the same time, methinks....and criticising people for their tastes in games is what you always do, whether you realise it or not. Even when you don't directly aim a comment at someone, you somehow manage to disguise it via eloquent rewording.
Disappointment to you perhaps, but for people who are well-versed/experienced in hori gameplay, it's just more of the same.BulletMagnet wrote:That I was, seeing as those things making a comeback would be an enormous and completely unnecessary disappointment in my eyes. Thankfully, however, my concern seems to have been largely a false alarm, as more info's come out.
Not necessarily. I've seen players fly through the game without even going near the red wave weapon. Weapon power can be important, but IIRC the rank ceiling is lowered if you can keep your level surpressed, which adds benefits such as weaker bosses, slower and less numerous bullets etc.BulletMagnet wrote:It's simple, yes, but far less forgiving than most any Raizing shmup as far as I'm concerned. High weapon power is so vital here that almost any benefits of powering down are negated by being ill-equipped for particular challenges, especially later on.
Gah. I had some practice with AUTO5, and the game is a tiny bit harder due to lack of firepower, but even then bosses took maybe an extra five seconds to kill. Darius, like a number of horis from that time, is all about pattern study. If you flail about without any thought to where to be and what to do, then I'm not surprised bosses take ages to kill/you die repeatedly.BulletMagnet wrote:I suppose it bears repeating that I had to play without autofire. Even at that, even in superplays the player spends half the battle staying out of the way of near-undodgeable attacks, which usually means hanging in safe spots where you can't hit the boss until the coast is clear. In any event, few games I can recall have ever made me feel like their boss battles were so much drudgery.
Yup.BulletMagnet wrote:learn 2 play?
Not as hard as you think.BulletMagnet wrote:So am I too thick to realize what I'm doing, or too slick for anyone else to realize it? It'd be a tough feat to pull off being so dumb and so insidious at the same time, methinks.
Yes, and your big mouth is not your most attractive feature. I've lost count of the amount of times you've used the "LOL, you am Raizing player, not qualified to talk about Cave" slight, most recently in the Death Smiles thread. Personally, the more you use that argument, the more I think you're sorely lacking in some creativity.BulletMagnet wrote:As I've said before, if I really do want to get someone's gander up, they'll know it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Constructing a case against someone's core character based on their tastes in video games isn't exactly my type of venture. I'm a casual shmupper with a big mouth, and I'm afraid that all I can do is ask people to take that at face value.
Lowlife? Not at all. You played DG and didn't like it, I played it and did (and thus continued to play it). Nothing more, nothing less.BulletMagnet wrote:Anyhow, as you said, it's tough to put oneself in another's shoes when it comes to gaming experiences...guess it gets harder when a lowlife like me addresses a top-tier type like yourself, heh heh.
As I've said before, just because it's a hori shouldn't mean that it can't evolve past 1988 gameplay conventions.Icarus wrote:Disappointment to you perhaps, but for people who are well-versed/experienced in hori gameplay, it's just more of the same.
Rando mentions this, and during (some) bosses it can (sometimes) help, but it cripples you royally during the stages when obstacles become a factor. Also, off to the side, can you provide any enlightenment on whether/how much rank goes down when you die? As I said, the ST doesn't mention it.Not necessarily. I've seen players fly through the game without even going near the red wave weapon. Weapon power can be important, but IIRC the rank ceiling is lowered if you can keep your level surpressed, which adds benefits such as weaker bosses, slower and less numerous bullets etc.
I dunno, the prevailing opinion seems to be that cranking up the autofire rate significantly lowers the game's challenge (I heard the term "broken" used at least once). I can't say much more about it myself, since I've never tried it with auto, but I'm not just making this stuff up outta nowhere.Gah. I had some practice with AUTO5, and the game is a tiny bit harder due to lack of firepower, but even then bosses took maybe an extra five seconds to kill.
The same goes for most any shmup, methinks you'd agree, and yet somehow, even when playing most other horis of the same period (or even older) I just don't feel the same sense of "why am I playing this?" as I do with this game. Can't really put it any other way than that, for whatever it's worth...Darius, like a number of horis from that time, is all about pattern study. If you flail about without any thought to where to be and what to do, then I'm not surprised bosses take ages to kill/you die repeatedly.
I can't help but chuckle a bit at how genuinely offended you seem to get at my supposed slights against you, seeing as you've always been incredibly blunt when it comes to expressing your very personal displeasure with me, as with the above comment, and offer no apologies for it - neither have I ever demanded any from you. I do rather wish, however, that you'd grant me a sliver of the leniency you grant yourself in this area. Or do I need to add a few more 1CCs to my repertoire before I earn that privilege?Not as hard as you think.
Once again I ask you, what would you prefer, that I never criticize anything on here, because somehow I always end up making it personal (both accidentally and on purpose, apparently), and insult everyone I disagree with, even though only you ever seem to be upset by it? What exactly would you have me do?Yes, and your big mouth is not your most attractive feature.
My memory must be going, as I can only remember using it in the Death Smiles thread, but if it bugs you that much I'll make a note not to mention it again.I've lost count of the amount of times you've used the "LOL, you am Raizing player, not qualified to talk about Cave" slight, most recently in the Death Smiles thread. Personally, the more you use that argument, the more I think you're sorely lacking in some creativity.
Yeah, and where'd you end up in the rankings last year, again?The Coop wrote:And me, top-tier? HA HA!
Mid-tier maybe... on a good day
It doesn't go down if you die.BulletMagnet wrote:Rando mentions this, and during (some) bosses it can (sometimes) help, but it cripples you royally during the stages when obstacles become a factor. Also, off to the side, can you provide any enlightenment on whether/how much rank goes down when you die? As I said, the ST doesn't mention it.
Let's put it this way. When I first got Darius Gaiden for my Saturn, I played it for a few hours (12-20 runs or so maybe?), and never got past ABD. Shelved it until this tournament, fired it up with auto-fire, and got the 1cc within 7 runs. Is it because I've improved that much in shooters over the past year? Hah... I could only wish. Auto-fire breaks this game.Bullet Magnet wrote:I dunno, the prevailing opinion seems to be that cranking up the autofire rate significantly lowers the game's challenge (I heard the term "broken" used at least once). I can't say much more about it myself, since I've never tried it with auto, but I'm not just making this stuff up outta nowhere.Gah. I had some practice with AUTO5, and the game is a tiny bit harder due to lack of firepower, but even then bosses took maybe an extra five seconds to kill.