Lair's low scores...

jp · Post by jp » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:52 am

I just said the 60fps thing because it makes the games run smoother. I mean, is it needed? No. If its a rock solid 30fps, then I'm perfectly happen. Can I REALLY tell half the time? Well, in Bioshock yes (since you can turn on 60fps), but if I can't directly compare the 30fps/60fps in the same game, then no. But does a game running at 60fps look really nice? Yes.

Regardless, you're right. Its irrelevant in the long run and not necessarily needed to make or break a game. Just a nice addition.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:37 pm

Zebra Airforce wrote:
dave4shmups wrote:
neorichieb1971 wrote:No.

The difference being is that when PS1 delivered it only had Sega as its competition. Microsoft sort of forced Sony's hand to release the PS3 earlier than it would have liked. Going back to PS1, if N64 was a year or 2 earlier, would you say the same thing?

This is just my assessment and you can take it how you please.

Microsoft had a year on PS3, if Sony was not a BD supporter the PS3 probably would not have arrived until maybe this year. Because Sony wanted BD in the box to sell its Blu-ray movies they released prematurely. See with movies you can release them quite quickly, they are already made and just need reprinting on the new media. With games its a different story, you need to start from scratch and work upwards.

Sony could of gone with ps2 for at least one or two more years and still raked in massive profits in line with Wii and DS. But because they turned all development to PS3 they are missing out on loads of cash. There is a difference between being the best and dominating the market. PS3 is now in Neo Geo sort of territory and its going to take a while for the price and mass market penetration.

The other thing that bugs me is how people are being spoilt. Put a wii game in front of a 360 owner and they dismiss it immediately for having 480i graphics. Thats just a snobbish attitude imo.

The other problem is the technology built in. Some gamers don't use the net at all. When I read of connecting your PSP to your PS3 and stream youtube video from a wireless network this and that, I understand it. But unless your a wizard at it or read forums all day long (like me ) your hardly gonna know how to do it. Again, its there but its premature, the market isn't ready for it.
All very good points. IMO, the PS3's main problem is market penetration, which is why they've lost some of their formerly-exclusive IP's, like Devil May Cry and Ace Combat. Last generation, Sony was, with a few exceptions, the place to go to with the most exclusives. This is no longer the case, and that's obviously a huge problem for SCE.

IMO, part of the appeal of the Wii has to be Nintendo's legendary reputation for durability. Yeah, I know the Wii is a Cube X2, but when Nintendo releases an HD system, I can guarantee that it will be just as durable. And consumers who grew up with Nintendo know this. Some of them still have their NES's; they may have to blow in them 20 times to get them to work, but they still work.

I agree about 480i, it still looks gorgeous. And Metriod Prime 3 looks amazing on a standard def TV; it would probably blow me away to see it in 480i.
The top screen of my ds stopped working. Also, the L button is getting less and less responsive. The L button has broken on ever version of the GBA i've ever gotten. Maybe they used to have durable products, but they don't give a shit anymore.

I feel sorry for you, seriously, but that's one example. And saying that they don't give a shit anymore and don't have durable products anymore, simply isn't true. How many Wii's, DS's, GBA's, Game Boy Color's, "Original" Gameboy's, Game Cubes, and N64's broke down, or are breaking down, compared to their competitor's consoles? The percentages and numbers are both probably miniscule .

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:41 pm

[quote]
Thats interesting. I could've sworn EA's reason for Madden running better on the 360 was that it had more RAM. I could be mistaken though. I don't really care. Fact remains that there's never going to be a noticable difference between the 360 and the PS3 and neither system will ever have games that CAN'T be done on the other system. [quote]

EA's excuses on the poor frame rates in their PS3 sports games are lame; they had plenty of time to work with the hardware, and get these games to run at 60fps.

Regardless, MS NEEDS to get their act together with regards to hardware quality. If they don't get it right with the Falcon Elite, they probably never will. Right now, I wouldn't buy a friggin' toaster from Microsoft.

As for XBLA, yes it is great, but they're going to look like idiots if they keep charging people for this service, when the other 2 (even if they are inferior) are not charging. They also need to crack down on the tidal waves of flaming that goes on on XBLA. I don't know if they even have mods, but if they do, they must be paying them to sleep on their desks. People put up with enough crap in their daily lives that they shouldn't have to put up with it while they're trying to enjoy a hobby.

jp · Post by jp » Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:43 pm

dave4shmups wrote: As for XBLA, yes it is great, but they're going to look like idiots if they keep charging people for this service, when the other 2 (even if they are inferior) are not charging. They also need to crack down on the tidal waves of flaming that goes on on XBLA. I don't know if they even have mods, but if they do, they must be paying them to sleep on their desks. People put up with enough crap in their daily lives that they shouldn't have to put up with it while they're trying to enjoy a hobby.

Mods for XBLA? What the hell are you talking about?

At any rate, let me echo the sentiment of virtually every single user of Xbox Live Gold:

You get what you pay for.

And this is the same thing stated by people who own both a 360 and a PS3.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:49 am

jp wrote:
dave4shmups wrote: As for XBLA, yes it is great, but they're going to look like idiots if they keep charging people for this service, when the other 2 (even if they are inferior) are not charging. They also need to crack down on the tidal waves of flaming that goes on on XBLA. I don't know if they even have mods, but if they do, they must be paying them to sleep on their desks. People put up with enough crap in their daily lives that they shouldn't have to put up with it while they're trying to enjoy a hobby.
Mods for XBLA? What the hell are you talking about?

At any rate, let me echo the sentiment of virtually every single user of Xbox Live Gold:

You get what you pay for.

And this is the same thing stated by people who own both a 360 and a PS3.

I just figured that there would be mods on any online service like that. Or at least there should be when people are being slammed with racial slurs, and all sorts of garbage like that.

The n00b · Post by **The n00b** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:57 am

dave4shmups wrote:
jp wrote:
dave4shmups wrote: As for XBLA, yes it is great, but they're going to look like idiots if they keep charging people for this service, when the other 2 (even if they are inferior) are not charging. They also need to crack down on the tidal waves of flaming that goes on on XBLA. I don't know if they even have mods, but if they do, they must be paying them to sleep on their desks. People put up with enough crap in their daily lives that they shouldn't have to put up with it while they're trying to enjoy a hobby.
Mods for XBLA? What the hell are you talking about?

At any rate, let me echo the sentiment of virtually every single user of Xbox Live Gold:

You get what you pay for.

And this is the same thing stated by people who own both a 360 and a PS3.
I just figured that there would be mods on any online service like that. Or at least there should be when people are being slammed with racial slurs, and all sorts of garbage like that.

Then turn off the voice or give'em hell in return. I guess this stuff doesn't affect me since I've put up with it ever since my quake days.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:04 am

The n00b wrote:
dave4shmups wrote:
jp wrote: Mods for XBLA? What the hell are you talking about?

At any rate, let me echo the sentiment of virtually every single user of Xbox Live Gold:

You get what you pay for.

And this is the same thing stated by people who own both a 360 and a PS3.
I just figured that there would be mods on any online service like that. Or at least there should be when people are being slammed with racial slurs, and all sorts of garbage like that.
Then turn off the voice or give'em hell in return. I guess this stuff doesn't affect me since I've put up with it ever since my quake days.

Yeah, good suggestions. I've actually never played a game online on any platform, not for fear of insults, but because I suck at death matches.

Two questions I've been meaning to ask about the PS3:

1. In Layman's terms, why is it so difficult to program for?

2. What's the deal with the RSX graphics chip, aka the Reality Synthesizer?

jp · Post by jp » Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:33 am

neorichie, I have a quick question for you.

Mind you, this isn't a flame or anything that, its a serious question because I too was mislead and I'm just curious:

Have you actually played Heavenly Sword?

I ask because we had to test a PS3 someone traded in and I decided we should use THAT game since I recalled you praising its graphics so. And um... honestly dude, Kameo looks better than that game...

I mean, the videos look really good. But the game itself? Fucking horrible. The framerate is atrocious and it just looks bad.

So... just wondering if you had played it or if you were going off those flashy movies they play (as I was).

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:22 am

PS3: the next Saturn

Difficult to program for, only suck-seeds in Japan, gets all the great arcade import titles

Only this time JP doesn't get to play them

jp · Post by jp » Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:42 am

Neon wrote:PS3: the next Saturn

Difficult to program for, only suck-seeds in Japan, gets all the great arcade import titles

Only this time JP doesn't get to play them

You know what the really sad thing is?

I keep thinking of it like that. I'm like, "The PS3 is stupid hard to program for and is only going to do well in Japan," and then another little voice says, "just like the Saturn...".

But the PS3 doesn't have the good games the Saturn has... and still has the same shitty franchises I didn't like LAST go round and the time before that. So I'm good.

Though I don't know what arcade games you're referring to... seems to be XBLA thats getting Trigger Heart, Ikaruga, Rez, etc., the 360 thats getting Treasure's new shooter, and the 360 got Senko no Ronde (with a widely ignored western release no less!).

So... I think I'm good in so far as developers I like.

Mortificator · Post by **Mortificator** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:38 pm

To be fair, the PS2 was difficult to program for too. I remember when the Oddworld guys jumped ship over to XBox they were commenting on how it was so easy to program for, a lot like working on a PC game, while the PS2 was "a bitch." But if a console's making money, devs will make time to find out how to program for it efficiently. I guess it just remains to be seen how much effort the PS3's worth.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:35 pm

Mortificator wrote:To be fair, the PS2 was difficult to program for too. I remember when the Oddworld guys jumped ship over to XBox they were commenting on how it was so easy to program for, a lot like working on a PC game, while the PS2 was "a bitch." But if a console's making money, devs will make time to find out how to program for it efficiently. I guess it just remains to be seen how much effort the PS3's worth.

Good point. But why is the PS3 so hard to develop for??

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:04 pm

The PS3 is not hard to develop for. If anything its "Inconvenient" to develop for.

Meaning that learning Xbox (A very PCish style chipset) is a piece of piss to code for compared to the PS2 which was largely constructed as a proprietory chipset from the ground up. Last gen, the PS2 was dominant so devs put more effort, made the PS2 the base model and converted to the other consoles (Burnout is a prime example).

The XB360 is just a super powered PC with a super duper graphics card. The PS3 uses cell. So when a company like ID come along and want to port something like Doom 5 from PC to Xb360, its largely a case of tweaking a few bits and pieces and serve. With PS3, the instruction set is completely different, its almost like converting to a different language. The middleware needs totally re-writing from the ground up. Alot of companies are dealing with this aspect and you should see the fruits of thy labour in about 3 months time. Unfortunately all games released to date on PS3 are kinda inferior on ps3 to some degree.

The PS3 is not the next Saturn. The Saturn was hard to program for because 2 CPU's were used and it was hard to balance the workload and get maximum results. The PS3 is just new technology that is incompatible with quite alot of port code from PC and 360. Devco's are just moaning bitches and they (do) have a right to do so.

JP,

I witnessed the demo being played first hand. Not the full game. It looked lush, lots going on. I didn't see anything to complain about graphics wise. Although I am disapointed in the reviews. I won't be picking it up.

UnscathedFlyingObject · Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:42 pm

Sony killed jp's mom and ate his children. He's full of hate.

jp · Post by jp » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:06 am

UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:Sony killed jp's mom and ate his children. He's full of hate.

No... but I do view Sony as a major contributing factor as to of why I'm not looking forward to Shenmue IV, playing Alien Front Online 2 nightly, and looking forward to Smilebit's latest offering.

Though regardless of my personal dislike, the PS3 is generally panned by most people anyways. So... in this case at least, I'm just "in with the crowd".

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:30 am

jp wrote:
UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:Sony killed jp's mom and ate his children. He's full of hate.
No... but I do view Sony as a major contributing factor as to of why I'm not looking forward to Shenmue IV, playing Alien Front Online 2 nightly, and looking forward to Smilebit's latest offering.

Though regardless of my personal dislike, the PS3 is generally panned by most people anyways. So... in this case at least, I'm just "in with the crowd".

I don't see any connection as to why PS3 or Sony might not allow you to enjoy such games.

jp · Post by jp » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:36 am

neorichieb1971 wrote:
jp wrote:
UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:Sony killed jp's mom and ate his children. He's full of hate.
No... but I do view Sony as a major contributing factor as to of why I'm not looking forward to Shenmue IV, playing Alien Front Online 2 nightly, and looking forward to Smilebit's latest offering.

Though regardless of my personal dislike, the PS3 is generally panned by most people anyways. So... in this case at least, I'm just "in with the crowd".

I don't see any connection as to why PS3 or Sony might not allow you to enjoy such games.

Because they don't (and never will) exist.

UnscathedFlyingObject · Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:46 am

Sony didn't buy Sega or anything like that, so the only reason there isn't a sequel to those games is because Sega doesn't want to make them. I guess you're probably thinking, "there would be sequels if the PS2 hadn't killed the Dreamcast", but as we all know, that's also crazy thinking since Sega themselves digged the Dreamcast's grave long ago with their string of failed hardware. I sure as heck wouldn't gamble on a Sega console after how the 32X, Sega CD, and Sega Saturn fluked.

No_not_like_Quake · Post by **No_not_like_Quake** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:28 am

Thing is, the PS2 took alot of the momentum the DC would have had due to those who held out on getting a DC for the impending release of the PS2. The DC had a solid line-up but was blown away by the PS2 hype.

Besides the PS2 threat though, I think that at the time of the DC, Sega was too small a company to release a console.

UnscathedFlyingObject · Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:46 am

C'mon anyone could've whupped Sega's ass. Nintendo released the SNES two years after the Genesis and still managed to whup their ass. And like you've just said, they had had their asses whupped too much by the time the PS2 came around. First by the NES, then SNES, and PSX. Nintendo delivered much more ass whupping. Where's all the hate?

jp · Post by jp » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:01 am

UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:Sony didn't buy Sega or anything like that, so the only reason there isn't a sequel to those games is because Sega doesn't want to make them. I guess you're probably thinking, "there would be sequels if the PS2 hadn't killed the Dreamcast", but as we all know, that's also crazy thinking since Sega themselves digged the Dreamcast's grave long ago with their string of failed hardware. I sure as heck wouldn't gamble on a Sega console after how the 32X, Sega CD, and Sega Saturn fluked.

Uh... Sega CD did alright. Sega Saturn was a success in Japan but failed in the West. Dreamcast was a success in the US (for the most part, but piracy hurt it a lot, as did bullshit PS2 propaganda) but didn't do so hot in Japan. And if Sega was still making consoles, yes... yes I imagine everything I just listed WOULD have happened.

C'mon anyone could've whupped Sega's ass. Nintendo released the SNES two years after the Genesis and still managed to whup their ass. And like you've just said, they had had their asses whupped too much by the time the PS2 came around. First by the NES, then SNES, and PSX. Nintendo delivered much more ass whupping. Where's all the hate?

"Ass-whuppin"? Depends on the region. The Genesis did amazing in the states, but not so hot in Japan. The Saturn destroyed the N64 in Japan (and went toe-to-toe with the PS1), but flopped in the west. Master System got an "ass-whuppin'", but thats because no one knew about it and Sega was relatively new.

Of course, at least back then with Nintendo Sega was getting "beat" by actual good games (Mario series). With the PS2 the DC got "whupped" by... what? Fantavision and Armored Core 2? Was there even anything worth mentioning on the PS2 at the time the DC went under? The correct answer is: "No."

UnscathedFlyingObject · Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:37 am

Nobody except Sega fanboys and niche groups of people had fate in Sega by the time of the DC. By contrast, people had faith in Sony because they slaughtered everyone with the PSX, and they knew Sony wouldn't pull a 32X, Sega CD or Saturn on them. I'd be pretty pissed if I bought a console from Sega and they released a new one a year or so after. The DC had a good launch, but people were skeptical about the follow up.

jp · Post by jp » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:08 am

UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:Nobody except Sega fanboys and niche groups of people had fate in Sega by the time of the DC.

Well, this alone shows you have absolutely no clue what-so-ever as to of what you're talking about since the DC sold better than the 32X and Saturn (maybe combined) and even the Sega CD.

Man, that sure was a lot of "Sega fanboys" that were holding off the for "right" Sega console wasn't it?

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:18 am

Sega is racist

UnscathedFlyingObject · Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:21 am

How hard is it actually to top those

?

jp · Post by jp » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:25 am

UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:How hard is it actually to top those ?

Well, since now you're forcing this debate into a circle... I'm done. Because you're apparently just going to be super Sony boy for the time being, so there's rather no point in this continuing.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:38 am

You're forgetting the PAL regions. I don't have any numbers, but from what I hear from an Australian I know, Sega has always been more popular than Nintendo down there. I dunno if it's the same in the UK or not though.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:19 am

Megadrive was hugely successful in the UK due to EA of all people. Well thats when they made helicopter games and Road Rash as well.

Better selling than Nintendo? Maybe, IIRC SNES carts cost £60 ($95 ish at the time) brand new. In an era when the Amiga was quite strong and piracy was rampant I said "Fuck that".

No_not_like_Quake · Post by **No_not_like_Quake** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:31 am

Off Topic but as far as EA goes, I think one of their best games was Blades of Vengence for MD in 1993, programmed by Beam. A fluid side-scrolling excellent game.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:09 am

Reality check.

I talked about Sega with a couple of non gamers (adults) the other day. They remembered the Mega Drive, "and some CD system". The name Saturn didn't ring a bell, and they had never seen or heard of Dreamcast (they knew PS1 and 2).

That's failed marketing for you, and it's Sega's own fault. It's nonsense to blame any other company for Sega's shortcomings. Sega fucked up royally in the 90s (after their successful Mega Drive/Genesis). Failed add-ons (bad in-house communication), failed console (Saturn): Due to bad architecture (slapped-on 3d capabilities [failure to understand in advance that gamers wanted 3D=bad market research], premature release, high price and bad software lineup upon market entry; bad software lineup period. And it doesn't matter that the Saturn provided you and me with lots of enjoyment; the rest of the (non Japanese) world regarded it as a failure. By then everyone but a few devoted fans lost all faith and interest in Sega. And then enter the Dreamacst: Worst. Marketing. Ever.

In short: Sega killed itself. Had the people at Sega better anticipated what consumers wanted and coordinated their efforts better, then they would still be in the console business. However, they completely and utterly failed at marketing. End of story.
Move along people, there's nothing more to see here.