New hope for a PS2 Ketsui port?

szycag · Post by **szycag** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:33 pm

DoDonPachi works on PSP now? It always froze for me on the Please Wait screen.

Someone should let Mihara know about all the people who don't care if it's a bare-bones port or not... we just want the chance to play it

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:55 pm

I hope he isn't just fucking with everyone.

dmauro · Post by **dmauro** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:42 pm

szycag wrote:DoDonPachi works on PSP now? It always froze for me on the Please Wait screen.

I've never had a problem with it (other than it being too small to effectively dodge bullets

Nakano · Post by **Nakano** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:03 pm

dmauro wrote:
szycag wrote:DoDonPachi works on PSP now? It always froze for me on the Please Wait screen.
I've never had a problem with it (other than it being too small to effectively dodge bullets

Didn't know ddp is on psp now, but I'd imagine it to be quite hard to dodge the bullets as it was made to be played on the telly/arcade monitor, but Ketsui ds will be made for the ds small screen, so I still think it's going to be the best handheld shooter (I hope).

taresk · Post by **taresk** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:50 pm

i hope hope hope that it's really that port go out on PS2 and i hope that this day COMING SOOOOOOOOOOOOOON

i hope hope hope hope hope...

Radiant · Post by **Radiant** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:57 pm

noooo!! not every 2 weeks the same drama.....

Milkgoat · Post by **Milkgoat** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:12 pm

If it does happen, I will import it the second it's released. I never got a chance to play Ketsui, but it's certainly been made out to be great here. Maybe I should watch some videos on youtube...

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:39 pm

Radiant wrote:noooo!! not every 2 weeks the same drama.....

I woke up this morning and checked the forum and was wondering if the old thread shrank several pages.... or a new one of 2 pages just suddenly appeared.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:12 pm

Kiken wrote:
What was Pink Sweets on? It doesn't seem anywhere near as extravagant as Mushi Futari or ESP 2. That's one I'd really like to see a port of (wishful thinking, I know).

PS is on the SH3, like the rest. And you're right, a PS2 port of that seems quite doable. With Futari and Galuda 2, I think they'd run into RAM problems. For example in Stage 5 of Futari, there's way too much crap going on in some spots. You'd probably need more powerful hardware to pull those off.

Anyway, while a port of PS would probably be possible, I was just objecting to the notion that the PS2 is powerful enough to emulate games like PS, Galuda 2, and Mushi Futari.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:33 pm

That really would be a punch in the face for people who buy the DS game and then have a full port released later.

good... punches or not a PS2 port would be much preferred over a DS port or 1200 dollar PCB, assuming its a good port.

sideshow · Post by **sideshow** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:07 am

I'd also love a ps2 port but it seems this boss fight would a slowmo masterpiece on the ps2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wotZMGkR_0M

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:13 am

sideshow wrote:I'd also love a ps2 port but it seems this boss fight would a slowmo masterpiece on the ps2.

As I've said before, if the PS2 could handle Mushi's TLB (and supposedly in many spots the game actually had less slowdown than the PCB), I'm hard-pressed to think of anything bullet-wise that would be too much for it.

sideshow · Post by **sideshow** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:21 am

Yes, with good programming the PS2 can. By the way, I dont think I could last 30 seconds on that boss fight.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:20 am

BulletMagnet wrote:
sideshow wrote:I'd also love a ps2 port but it seems this boss fight would a slowmo masterpiece on the ps2.
As I've said before, if the PS2 could handle Mushi's TLB (and supposedly in many spots the game actually had less slowdown than the PCB), I'm hard-pressed to think of anything bullet-wise that would be too much for it.

I don't think the bullet count are the problem, it's the size and number of sprites that the PS2 can't handle in these newer SH3 games, due to a lack of RAM.

And BTW, Ultra mode on the PS2 port runs SLOWER than the PCB. The PS2 apparently couldn't handle Ultra at the original speed.

tada · Post by **tada** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:35 am

PS2 has a faster processor than the current Cave hardware; I don't see why there would be a problem.

I sure as hell would like this better than a DS port. DS and shmups just do not mix.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:36 am

tada wrote:PS2 has a faster processor than the current Cave hardware; I don't see why there would be a problem.

One word: RAM

sideshow · Post by **sideshow** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:42 am

Well, just like so many other people, I probably will never play this game cause I'm not into the PCB scene and am a console gamer at heart. Even if a PS2 port came out somewhat lackluster to the arcade, the only people who will notice the differences is well people who played the arcade version. I think it would be a great game to end off the PS2's nice run of shmups. Not that the PS2 is dead but most developers are moving on to newer hardware.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:10 am

RAM can be sorted by streaming or loading stops at halfway intervals.

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:21 am

EOJ wrote:
BulletMagnet wrote:
sideshow wrote:I'd also love a ps2 port but it seems this boss fight would a slowmo masterpiece on the ps2.
As I've said before, if the PS2 could handle Mushi's TLB (and supposedly in many spots the game actually had less slowdown than the PCB), I'm hard-pressed to think of anything bullet-wise that would be too much for it.
I don't think the bullet count are the problem, it's the size and number of sprites that the PS2 can't handle in these newer SH3 games, due to a lack of RAM.

And BTW, Ultra mode on the PS2 port runs SLOWER than the PCB. The PS2 apparently couldn't handle Ultra at the original speed.

To clarify what EOJ is saying, it's not the number of objects on the screen at any one time, it's all the individual sprite images plus background images that need to reside in memory for drawing. I don't know if anyone remembers back when somebody posted (against the forum rules) a zip file of a complete sprite rip for Mushihime-sama. It contained every single frame of animation of each sprite in the whole game and it was enormous.

Take for example a single enemy like a little popcorn helicopter in Ketsui. You can have them swoop in from the corner, hover for a bit, always having the appearance of pointing in your ship's direction, then turn around and zoom back to the top of the screen.

These are not 3D models which are stored once and rotated, every single frame of animation is an individual image bitmap that needs to be loaded into memory.

And that's just for one popcorn. When you have dozens of different enemies, plus bullet sprites, background images, explosions, and user interface images, some of which can be very large, that's a lot of memory that needs to be used just for sprite bitmaps.

At least that's my understanding of the problem that Arika encountered with Ketsui and that would be a problem with modern games.... EOJ is this what you are getting at?

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:52 am

@iatneH: yes, that's the gist of it. If the PS2 can just barely manage Ketsui in terms of RAM, then there's no way it could do something like Mushi Futari's stage 5 or certain parts of Galuda 2. Just way too many sprites and bullets coming in at the same time really fast. The backgrounds are far more complex and more multi-layered than Ketsui as well.

Of course the Wii, PS3 or X360 would have no problem with this. So one of those would be the natural choice for the newer Cave games. Cave doesn't do 240p in their PS2 ports anyway.

gavin19 · Post by **gavin19** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:14 am

From what little PCB footage I saw of Galuda, Ibara, DOJ and Mushi, graphical sacrifices were made in all of them. I don't mean in terms of slowdown but it seemed that colour depth and sprite detail were watered down in all of the ports. What I have seen of Ketsui doesn't make me believe that it wouldn't be possible without a few changes here and there. Hell we know everyone would buy it anyway. Just a pity that Guwange, EspRaDe and Dangun were overlooked before Ketsui was considered. Thankfully they are all perfectly emulated.

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:12 am

sideshow wrote:I am a console gamer at heart.

Man, oh man.

So if I gave you a no-name controller and a screen, and the actual hardware was hidden inside a box, so you couldn't tell if it was a console system, a computer, or an arcade system powering the game, what would you do? Would you, like, short-circuit or something and stare at the screen blankly?

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:55 pm

EOJ wrote:@iatneH: yes, that's the gist of it. If the PS2 can just barely manage Ketsui in terms of RAM, then there's no way it could do something like Mushi Futari's stage 5 or certain parts of Galuda 2. Just way too many sprites and bullets coming in at the same time really fast. The backgrounds are far more complex and more multi-layered than Ketsui as well.

Mushi Futari's stage 5 would have to feature mid-level loading (probably right before the serpent dragon midboss and then again before the final boss battle... at least). ESPGaluda II's stage 6 is a fucking marathon in comparison to the rest of the game (you go up against, what, four midbosses?)... and there aren't really any breaks in the stage. Plus, Mihara was finding that streaming the data really wasn't working too well in particularly sprite-heavy areas.

Maybe we should have a throw-back to the old PC-Engine R-Type. Release the first four/five levels of the games on PS2 and then port the final level to the PS3.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:01 pm

those guys should be porting games on 8 bits system. If they were around at that time, I am pretty sure they would be able to port any Cave shmup to the PS2.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:38 pm

Kiken wrote:
EOJ wrote:@iatneH: yes, that's the gist of it. If the PS2 can just barely manage Ketsui in terms of RAM, then there's no way it could do something like Mushi Futari's stage 5 or certain parts of Galuda 2. Just way too many sprites and bullets coming in at the same time really fast. The backgrounds are far more complex and more multi-layered than Ketsui as well.
Mushi Futari's stage 5 would have to feature mid-level loading (probably right before the serpent dragon midboss and then again before the final boss battle... at least). ESPGaluda II's stage 6 is a fucking marathon in comparison to the rest of the game (you go up against, what, four midbosses?)... and there aren't really any breaks in the stage. Plus, Mihara was finding that streaming the data really wasn't working too well in particularly sprite-heavy areas.

Maybe we should have a throw-back to the old PC-Engine R-Type. Release the first four/five levels of the games on PS2 and then port the final level to the PS3.

It's not the same deal here. The problem is getting each level in memory, not the whole game. What I would suggest is a RAM upgrade. Just put a USB card reader in the ps2 and let it read data from that. Even a memory card would help. I have a feeling the ps2 is just shy of whats needed, its not like Ketsui is that far advanced over the current offerings from Arika.

jpolz · Post by **jpolz** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:47 pm

It's not the same deal here. The problem is getting each level in memory, not the whole game. What I would suggest is a RAM upgrade. Just put a USB card reader in the ps2 and let it read data from that. Even a memory card would help. I have a feeling the ps2 is just shy of whats needed, its not like Ketsui is that far advanced over the current offerings from Arika.

Flash memory is slower than dog sh*t compared to RAM.

Not to mention that PS 2 architecture probably won't let you address storage flash as system memory.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:54 pm

neorichieb1971 wrote:It's not the same deal here. The problem is getting each level in memory, not the whole game. What I would suggest is a RAM upgrade.

You missed the subtle attempt at humour. Better luck next time, chief.

PPA · Post by **PPA** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:40 pm

im hoping for a PSP rather than a PS2

Post by **Shatterhand** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:55 pm

Somebody send me a Ketsui PCB and I'll port it to the MSX2 .

I am being honest.

Kaiser · Post by **Kaiser** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:59 pm

Bullet wrote:im hoping for a PSP rather than a PS2

PSP is crap, gtfo