Why is arcade technology reluctant to go LCD?

D · Post by D » Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:36 pm

neorichieb1971 wrote:If you put a massive arcade in the heart of Birmingham, had top quality games from 1980-2007 you would have a good turn out if it was well advertised. Just nobody is doing it.

Exactly and that's why it stings so much to hear people say: arcades are dead and arcade games are old and stuff like that. Another thing. Where the hell are puzzle games? Every arcade anywhere should have a Ms Pacman for the ladies!

tada · Post by **tada** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:13 am

Dave_K. wrote:Twas just a joke tada. I'll be in Tacoma for 1 day this weekend, any arcades you can recommend there?

First thing that comes to my mind is Tacoma Narrows Bowl. Don't know how much you like music games, but they have a Guitar Freaks 11th/DrumMania 10th setup. As far as shmups go, there sometimes is a Raiden Fighters JET there. I don't make my way down there that often at all, since there are places closer to me, so I can't vouch for its presence at all. The last time I was there was 7 months ago, and it wasn't there, but it may have rotated back in by now.

seattlexc · Post by **seattlexc** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:48 am

There is supposedly a rather large arcade in south Tacoma, its actually really close to my house during school, however I've never been there or heard much about it. It sounds a little shady, but it might be worth a look. Let me know if you check it out, I'm curious how a place like this can survive in such a shitty neighborhood.

heres some info on the place. Second link says its a little rundown.

http://arcadelocations.classicgaming.ga ... e=watacbni

http://forums.webmagic.com/ubbthreads/s ... ain=398409

tada · Post by **tada** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:52 am

Narrows, on the other hand, is very well-maintained by an awesome arcade op by the name of Bill Masterman. His warehouse is only about 2-3 minutes away, so things there get fixed quick. 'tis a shame that all the arcades he maintains are in such bad neighborhoods, though.

PC Engine Fan X! · Post by **PC Engine Fan X!** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:11 am

Dave_K. wrote:
tada wrote: I really hope I can move there, because I think I'll suffocate to death as a gamer if I continue to live here...
But you'll die from 2nd hand smoke inhalation much sooner if you live your life in Japanese arcades!

Same thing can be said for those Japanese pachinko parlors as well -- they reek to high heaven of 2nd-hand smoke indeed..... ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

tada · Post by **tada** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:33 am

PC Engine Fan X! wrote:
Dave_K. wrote:
tada wrote: I really hope I can move there, because I think I'll suffocate to death as a gamer if I continue to live here...
But you'll die from 2nd hand smoke inhalation much sooner if you live your life in Japanese arcades!
Same thing can be said for those Japanese pachinko parlors as well -- they reek to high heaven of 2nd-hand smoke indeed..... ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

Same can also be said about coffee shops, and even workplaces.

Pachinko is a total rip-off IMO though. I much prefer the medal games at game centers. They're far more fun, and actually offer you chances at winning.

elvis · Post by **elvis** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:15 am

tada wrote:Pachinko is a total rip-off IMO though.

Gambling is a tax on people who are bad at math.

tada · Post by **tada** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:54 am

elvis wrote:
tada wrote:Pachinko is a total rip-off IMO though.
Gambling is a tax on people who are bad at math.

Not entirely true. With optimum strategy, a 10/7 deuces wild video poker machine actually has over a 100% payout.

elvis · Post by **elvis** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:23 am

tada wrote:With optimum strategy

Heh. You sound like a typical gambler.

tada · Post by **tada** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:32 am

elvis wrote:
tada wrote:With optimum strategy
Heh. You sound like a typical gambler.

I used to play quite a bit of hold 'em, but I haven't wanted to risk it since online poker became illegal.

Mills · Post by **Mills** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:56 pm

Cost!

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:35 pm

I know FPS progamers don't like to have to play on LCD in tournaments, probably because of the small display lag (?). I guess it also can be annoying for shmups ?

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:12 am

D wrote:it will then either be 1280X720 or 1920X1080 afaik.
Please let them use plasmas instead of lcds. 8)

Arcade monitors are possibly the worst possible situation for a plasma monitor: high voltages, expensive, short lifespan, flicker discernable at close range (plasmas have to flicker to emulate varied light intensity), and I think there's also the potential for a burn-in-like effect.

Also, LCDs can really be any aspect ratio you want (so long as they're produced), without distortion (although at bigger sizes the possibility of dead pixels, backlighting irregularities, and cost all increase). My monitor's 4:3, after all. There's lots of 16:9 screens and I had the impression they're squeezing the 4:3 market, but you can still find a nice 4:3 monitor without too many problems.

PROMETHEUS wrote:I know FPS progamers don't like to have to play on LCD in tournaments, probably because of the small display lag (?). I guess it also can be annoying for shmups ?

Ghosting would be an issue (though I noticed my P110 seemed to have a bit of phosphor persistence, i.e. running down a dark corridor in an FPS with small bright lights inset might cause a notable trail effect), and limited refresh rate is a major issue for some (my monitor only does 60 Hz; when I first started using it I thought I was gonna go blind, although now I usually appreciate the larger viewable area more than I miss the extra refresh rate - especially as it'd be hard to find a graphics card able to do much more than 60 Hz @ 1600x1200).

elvis · Post by **elvis** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:45 am

Queue usual discussion of OLED and SED TV/monitor technology.

I'm keen to see either enter the real world. It's a shame they're taking so long.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:58 am

SED for me, although OLED is alright, aside from the bulb longevity issue.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:05 am

elvis wrote:
It makes me wonder what sort of money these game centres must pull.

Not as much as you'd think. Most VF5 setups I've seen will have a couple of Lindberg's, and a coule of old New Net City cabs. IE - they didn't want to fork up for an all Lindberg setup.

(anyone here heard of Akasaka? Because I sure hadn't)

Anyone that lives in Tokyo has. It's one of the few business/party districts. The partying isn't as apparant as it is literally right next door to Roppongi, but there are nice restaurants there. I worked there for some 4-5 years. Great area. It's biggest arcade shutdown in 2005 if I'm not mistaken.

Pachinko is a total rip-off IMO though.

The pros that make their living off of it would definitely disagree.

2nd hand smoke

It's Japan...2nd hand smoke is everywhere. You're just in an arcade much longer on average.

tada · Post by **tada** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:01 am

Pachinko is a total rip-off IMO though.
The pros that make their living off of it would definitely disagree.

That's why it's my opinion. There's probably something I'm missing, but I lack the startup capital/time to learn it. Especially the time, since I won't be able to attempt a permanent move there until I finish my CS degree in two years.

(anyone here heard of Akasaka? Because I sure hadn't)
Anyone that lives in Tokyo has. It's one of the few business/party districts. The partying isn't as apparant as it is literally right next door to Roppongi, but there are nice restaurants there. I worked there for some 4-5 years. Great area. It's biggest arcade shutdown in 2005 if I'm not mistaken.

I had not heard of it until I had stayed in a hotel there. You have to admit, it's not as well known as, say, Shibuya-ku, or Shinjuku-ku outside of Tokyo/around the world.

As for the topic at hand, shmups would have a lot of potential for burn-in on LCDs. PLAYER 1, HI-SCORE, etc. would all be in the same place on the screen for a long time, which implies burn-in.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:29 am

tada wrote: As for the topic at hand, shmups would have a lot of potential for burn-in on LCDs. PLAYER 1, HI-SCORE, etc. would all be in the same place on the screen for a long time, which implies burn-in.

You mean Plasma burn-in? I've never seen LCD burn-in before.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:40 am

Dave_K. wrote:
tada wrote: As for the topic at hand, shmups would have a lot of potential for burn-in on LCDs. PLAYER 1, HI-SCORE, etc. would all be in the same place on the screen for a long time, which implies burn-in.
You mean Plasma burn-in? I've never seen LCD burn-in before.

All these terms confuse some people. On the first page "D" also talked about going plasma...I mentioned various reasons why that would be bad. Burn-in isn't even half of the problem, although that does effectively kill the idea.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:07 am

plasma is not bad...

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:36 am

It's very inefficient, looks terrible close up, has dangerously high internal voltages, a ridiculously short lifespan, and on top of all that costs an arm and a leg.

Despite all that, if you had the right sort of application for it (and if it were 2004 again), not so bad. They certainly seem to scale more reliably compared to LCD.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:18 am

looks terrible close up, a ridiculously short lifespan

these are untrue

tada · Post by **tada** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:21 am

PROMETHEUS wrote:I know FPS progamers don't like to have to play on LCD in tournaments, probably because of the small display lag (?). I guess it also can be annoying for shmups ?

It's not small, last I heard. The lag can be as much as several frames. That's something that will probably have to be fixed for arcade operators, and me, to consider buying them. For now, I'll be keeping my limbs intact.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:05 pm

It depends on the LCD monitor. Some monitors with built-in software to achieve more accurate color (i.e. those for color adjustment and graphics professionals) do have noticeable lag, but others don't necessarily.

I don't notice any lag on my panel at all.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:20 pm

Most LCD's and Plasmas have a game mode option to reduce lag.

Its still clear to me that both technologies are behind CRT when it comes to gaming, but then again its not enough to bother me.

cody · Post by **cody** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:49 pm

LCD's don't "burn" in, but they definitely have image persistence. I have an emacs modeline in the middle of my LCD monitor all day, and a negative image persists if / when I quit the terminal emulator.

Regarding lag, most of the time when people talk about lcd lag, they're talking about scaling lag. Arcade games at native resolution shouldn't be affected by this. The physical crystal response time for modern lcds is well below the amount of time it takes for an interlaced frame on a crt.

Plasma has a more noticeable border between pixels; "looks terrible close up" may be an opinion, but it's hard to deny that plasma cell walls are thicker than the borders between LCD pixels.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:28 pm

Most noticable when a single color is onscreen. LCD is solid, Plasma is almost pixelated.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:18 am

cody wrote:"looks terrible close up" may be an opinion

I had read before that plasma screens display different intensities and varied levels of brightness by flicking each sub-pixel cell on and off rapidly. According to "teh wiki" that's thousands of times a second. I haven't a clue on finding my original source, though. Somebody else will have to weigh in on whether this is noteworthy or not.

cody wrote:LCD's don't "burn" in, but they definitely have image persistence. I have an emacs modeline in the middle of my LCD monitor all day, and a negative image persists if / when I quit the terminal emulator.

I've never seen anything like this.

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:01 am

Ed Oscuro wrote:
cody wrote:LCD's don't "burn" in, but they definitely have image persistence. I have an emacs modeline in the middle of my LCD monitor all day, and a negative image persists if / when I quit the terminal emulator.
I've never seen anything like this.

My Dell panel will commonly have persistent images of titlebars/buttons where I leave some windows (Pidgin and a few terminals) in one place for a long time.

A few days ago it rebooted and something made it stop when it tried to boot off disk, so it sat at the bootup screen where it lists all the devices and such in DOS style textmode.

When I booted windows I had a persistent PARALLEL PORT across the screen. It was hilarious.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:58 am

cody wrote:LCD's don't "burn" in, but they definitely have image persistence. I have an emacs modeline in the middle of my LCD monitor all day, and a negative image persists if / when I quit the terminal emulator.

That's what you get for not using vi!!!