Pattern flipping in shmups

[louisg]

One problem I see with a lot of shmups is that once you memorize a stage, it starts to overshadow skill to some degree or another.

Just for the sake of an example.. Soukyugurentai stage 3. There is a part where you destroy a symmetrical pattern of smaller enemies, and immediately after a huge red ship drifts from the left side. Now, every time I play this, I know to be on the left side on this part of the level. But, there's no reason in the context of the level that this ship has to come from the left side.

The question is: are there shooters that randomly flip some of the enemy patterns to throw off the player?

[PROMETHEUS]

There is one place in Guwange where some monsters appear randomly (the plain before the last boss), other than that I don't know shmups with such randomization.

I totally agree with you that shmups in general suffer from too much reliance on memorization as opposed to skill. Depending on the shmup it can be so heavily relying on memorization that there is next to no skill involved in clearing it after it is memorized :( (like Pulstar, or even Blazing Star...)

[Motorherp]

I'm pretty sure in Gunbird 2 that certain groups of enemies could spawn on either the left or right side arbitrarily. I imagine that probably extends to a lot of Psikyo's games. I'd have to play them again to confirm that for you though.

[Ozymandiaz1260]

In Raiden there are a lot of ships that will come from the left side if you're on the right, and vice versa. I think Twin Cobra did that too, but I'm not sure.

[RotateMe]

In Raiden there are a lot of ships that will come from the left side if you're on the right, and vice versa. I think Twin Cobra did that too, but I'm not sure.

I thought of that too but it doesn't solve the memorization problem. If you know where they spawn when you are where you always are you can predict them like they always spawn there. Watch superplays of these games, they know where the enemies will spawn.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

Well one of the "Soldier" series games has some randomly chosen enemy patterns. I just can't remember which.

[Andi]

That's why I like Parsec47, Noiz2sa, etc. - no memorization. Although, when a game is randomized, it (partially) becomes about luck, considering that sometimes the game will be easier than other times based on which pattern the game decides to use this round.

[kengou]

I feel that in games which require heavy memorization, for example Ikaruga, the skill to playing the game IS in memorizing the stages and successfully executing your memorized path through the level. It's like completing a difficult Piano piece, of course it's memorized, but it takes a LOT of practice and training to get to the point where you can successfully go through it flawlessly.

I like random-spawn shmups too though because they don't require such a time investment just to be fun to blast things. Ikaruga just isn't that fun until you put a few hours into it. I played with a friend of mine in co-op who had never played before, and I was going through trying to chain and messing up from him shooting random enemies. He didn't really enjoy himself since I was killing most things before he even knew they were there, and he'd get killed by some shots that I was dodging by pure memorization.

[-Bridget-]

I personally dont care for games that are totally about memorization.

Now, I agree that as a whole, most shmups use it to some degree.... but some can definitely take it too far.

A good example, is a replay I was talking about with someone in another topic, a "superplay" file of Dangun Feveron.

Perfect example: This player had memorized the game to the point where probably 90% of the enemies in the game would be dead before they even got onto the screen.

As such, he went through probably 90% of the game NOT BEING SHOT AT.


How the heck is that impressive?

Impressive MEMORY, maybe. But skill? I dont think so.

Impressive SKILL, to me, is more along the lines of watching someone trash the final enemy in Mushihime's Ultra mode; you can memorize that nasty little snotball all you want..... but that doesnt make him any less obscenely hard.

I've memorized most of THAT game.... I know where things will appear, and I know what bosses are going to do what attacks in what order, and what those attacks consist of.

Like the 2nd boss in Ultra; I know exactly what it's gonna do at every step.

BUT...... that 2nd boss will still eat my face. Simple as that; I can memorize it all I want, but Im not yet skilled enough to take that thing down.




Too much memorization is boring and annoying.

AT LEAST make the game still able to SHOOT STUFF at the player if they've memorized it.....

[Pirate1019]

A good example, is a replay I was talking about with someone in another topic, a "superplay" file of Dangun Feveron.

I don't think that counts. He broke that game. I don't think the game was ever meant to be taken to such extremes.

Perfect example: This player had memorized the game to the point where probably 90% of the enemies in the game would be dead before they even got onto the screen.

As such, he went through probably 90% of the game NOT BEING SHOT AT.


How the heck is that impressive?

Impressive MEMORY, maybe. But skill? I dont think so.

Being able to memorize an entire game seems like it would require skill to me. I think you're letting your preference of game types cloud your judgment of what skill really is or isn't.

Impressive SKILL, to me, is more along the lines of watching someone trash the final enemy in Mushihime's Ultra mode; you can memorize that nasty little snotball all you want..... but that doesnt make him any less obscenely hard.

I've memorized most of THAT game.... I know where things will appear, and I know what bosses are going to do what attacks in what order, and what those attacks consist of.

Like the 2nd boss in Ultra; I know exactly what it's gonna do at every step.

BUT...... that 2nd boss will still eat my face. Simple as that; I can memorize it all I want, but Im not yet skilled enough to take that thing down.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe that player in the Dangun replay or any serious Ikaruga player had the same issue at one point in time? I can guarantee that they didn't say "Alright, I know where every single enemy is, let's give this a shot" and get an amazing run immediately after. I know where every single enemy is on stage 2 of Ikaruga, but I still can't chain it after owning the game for several years.

AT LEAST make the game still able to SHOOT STUFF at the player if they've memorized it.....

Think of it as a reward for being anal retentive to the point of absurdity.

[-Bridget-]

Hmm, no, I just cant count memorizing as being overly skillful. SOMEWHAT, maybe, but....

Even with my terrible memory...... even I can memorize these things. It's not really that hard to do.


Heck, I can DO that with DF's 1st stage. Makes it easy as pie. (I've played it a bit too much).

And dont get me wrong, being able to do it that way is still impressive in a way..... but not too much.


I dont think it's the player's fault, though, heck no. Not at all. Just a flaw in the gameplay, really, of any game that allows that to be done that easily.


Something like that that IS impressive to me, would be something more along the lines of full-stage-chaining in DoDonPachi DOJ..... cause sure; those players know where everything is, which is required for chaining. BUT..... they ALSO still have to deal with 10 gazillion bullets, and using the Hyper beam to add to their score (and also necessary for full chains) just makes the game even CRAZIER.


DF's problem is that the memorization makes it the easiest thing ever, as I see it.


That's all, really.


Im wondering if that's why DF was never all that popular?

But, whatever..... *I* still like it, lol.

[amorph]

I love DF, but it's really much heavier on the memorization side than other Cave games.

[Kaede]

The question is: are there shooters that randomly flip some of the enemy patterns to throw off the player?

Ikaruga does exactly this in certain places. For example stage 1 after swooping through the clouds there is a section wher popcorn enemies sweep down in groups of three from both sides. The sequence is random every time you play.

Same for the boxes section on stage 2.

[Ko.oS]

"to kick ass at a shooter memorization is neccessary but not sufficient, its the way the player controls/handles the enemies and bullettbarrages, thats where the skill is" -anonymous

that said, upl's omegafighter has static ground enemies, but semi random air based formations (if you are on the far left, they will appear on the far right, if you are at the center they appear at the center etc), AND semi random item dropping, which means you'll have to come up with a plan B and a plan C and so on. once you start playing more regularly it becomes a little irritating. its not half as bad as bakraid, though . . .


_____________________
"skill vs memorization" is the typical dichotomy of the unskilled

edit - stupid sig

[Pirate1019]

Even with my terrible memory...... even I can memorize these things. It's not really that hard to do.

An entire game?

I dont think it's the player's fault, though, heck no. Not at all. Just a flaw in the gameplay, really, of any game that allows that to be done that easily.

I still don't see how you can call anything like that "easy". It's like saying that a Garegga replay isn't impressive because they suicide to control rank.

Something like that that IS impressive to me, would be something more along the lines of full-stage-chaining in DoDonPachi DOJ..... cause sure; those players know where everything is, which is required for chaining. BUT..... they ALSO still have to deal with 10 gazillion bullets, and using the Hyper beam to add to their score (and also necessary for full chains) just makes the game even CRAZIER.

The reason there were so few bullets on screen was because he was moving fast enough to destroy most of the enemies before they got more then a couple shots off. You can't to that in DOJ because your ship is slower. You're saying a game isn't impressive because it gives the player an opportunity to smash his enemies with almost perfect efficiency?

DF's problem is that the memorization makes it the easiest thing ever, as I see it.

Get back to me when you have that WR.

[Shatterhand]

I dont think it's the player's fault, though, heck no. Not at all. Just a flaw in the gameplay, really, of any game that allows that to be done that easily.

THat's where you fail. If it's easy, please, just go ahead and do it. I'd like to see it.

[kengou]

The question is: are there shooters that randomly flip some of the enemy patterns to throw off the player?

Ikaruga does exactly this in certain places. For example stage 1 after swooping through the clouds there is a section wher popcorn enemies sweep down in groups of three from both sides. The sequence is random every time you play.

Same for the boxes section on stage 2.

Sorry, but no it's not random. The enemies come out the exact same way from the same direction, but only if you kill all the previous enemies fast enough. They are essentially bonus chains. I can tell you exactly where the bonus chains will come out every time, and they never switch sides or anything. Ikaruga simply has no part where enemies vary where they spawn.

[Shatterhand]

if you want the opposite of a memorizer.

Go play Zanac. The game has a fair amount of random stuff. It also just doesn't just "flip a pattern", it changes everything that happens based upon where you are, what weapon you are using, how many times you have shooted, how many times have you died, how long is your current life lasting...

You never play the same match twice, ever!

[j^aws]

Just dropped in to post Stargate...

Bye!

[Kaede]

The question is: are there shooters that randomly flip some of the enemy patterns to throw off the player?

Ikaruga does exactly this in certain places. For example stage 1 after swooping through the clouds there is a section wher popcorn enemies sweep down in groups of three from both sides. The sequence is random every time you play.

Same for the boxes section on stage 2.

Sorry, but no it's not random. The enemies come out the exact same way from the same direction, but only if you kill all the previous enemies fast enough. They are essentially bonus chains. I can tell you exactly where the bonus chains will come out every time, and they never switch sides or anything. Ikaruga simply has no part where enemies vary where they spawn.

Sorry I should have said that the colour sequence is random. The actual formations are the same.

[kengou]

Ikaruga does exactly this in certain places. For example stage 1 after swooping through the clouds there is a section wher popcorn enemies sweep down in groups of three from both sides. The sequence is random every time you play.

Same for the boxes section on stage 2.

Sorry, but no it's not random. The enemies come out the exact same way from the same direction, but only if you kill all the previous enemies fast enough. They are essentially bonus chains. I can tell you exactly where the bonus chains will come out every time, and they never switch sides or anything. Ikaruga simply has no part where enemies vary where they spawn.

Sorry I should have said that the colour sequence is random. The actual formations are the same.

Nope, nothing is random at all. Even the colors always repeat. The thing that might be throwing you off is that the number of bonus chains will vary depending on how quickly you beat the previous enemies. if you do it as fast as possible, every time, you'll get the same number, formation, spawn point, and color for the bonus enemies. If you aren't consistent in beating the main enemies quickly, then you might get half as many bonus chains and therefore the colors might be different since you're not getting them all.

Believe me, when you play consistently, the enemies are all very consistent. I'm not quite good enough to get all the bonus chains myself, but I know they all come in at the same points if you get them all.

[powerfuran]

The only thing that resembles a random formation in Ikaruga is the bonus darts in 3-2. Not the number of them, but the actual point where they spawn from. Btw, it's such an easy part it's not worth discussing about it.

Memory vs skill... there's something I don't get. Does skill mean "dodging bullet"? Judging from these post that's the point. I think it's a narrow vision of smhupping. Memorizing patterns, enemy positionings, it's part of what I call strategy, and to apply a strategy the best you can in order to hi-score is IMO skill. I know that a great run of DDP DOJ is a combination of memorization and dodging, and an Ikaruga run does involve little bullet dodging, (not so little to be honest), but they both represent skill, just in different ways. The final section of stage 3 in Ikaruga is all memorization: the enemies don't shoot at all. But pulling it off consistently without breaking the chain is skill, no doubt about it. I don't think it's better or worse than demonstrating skill at some great Cave games, or things like that. Note that I refer to Ikaruga just because I know the game quite deeply and it's usually referred to as the most common example of memorization in shmups.

One thing about the Dangun Feveron superplay: the player is doing a great job if he's not being shoot at. Imagine just a second of "pause", or even less, in following the pattern: it will tunt into a bullet hell. That's skill as well. At some extreme point, for sure, but it is skill.

[Pirate1019]

Does skill mean "dodging bullet"? Judging from these post that's the point. I think it's a narrow vision of smhupping.

That's what I've been trying to say, albeit in a much lengthier way.

[powerfuran]

Does skill mean "dodging bullet"? Judging from these post that's the point. I think it's a narrow vision of smhupping.

That's what I've been trying to say, albeit in a much lengthier way.

I see. I totally agree, I wanted to throw in my opinion about the subject.

[kengou]

Radiant Silvergun is possibly the best balance I've ever seen between memorization and semi-random dodging. The layout of the levels and the spawns of the enemies is always the same, The bosses, however, take some serious dodging skill to survive. It's just perfection