Good list of what changed! But, I guess I disagree that random opening stages were a good idea. I think it leads to a jumpy difficulty curve. I also think their last levels tended to be kind of repetitive compared to the other stages, and I mentioned my dislike of how the later patterns in the game worked.Rob wrote: That is enough to treat the early games as different from the last few games. Everything that works well was retained (like a healthy ship/character selection, short stages, random opening stages) and everything else was refined to something much more playable.
Yeah, but there is also something to be said for trying new things. The fact that when we're citing what's improved in Psikyo games we're looking at a decade span says a lot. If they had experimented more, sure there'd be more of a risk of having some lemons in the lineup, but the games might have also been further refined past where they were when they stopped in addition to having more diversity overall.Psikyo is known for short random stages, fast bullets, etc. I think there is something to be said for consistency, realizing what is successful and staying on course
I haven't played a ton of Bakraid or Garegga as they are not my favorites, but Bakraid did seem to improve on the Garegga formula-- at least the bullets are visible! =)In my opinion Psikyo's changes were always for the better. Can that be said for games like Battle Bakraid and Ibara (if you want to include that)?
Well, popularity is just popularity. That is separate from whether something is actually good or not. And while it's nice that they didn't remove good features from their games, they were slow to improve on their designs and remedy flaws. The argument that it is good to have so many similar games only makes sense if the dev group in question is incapable of making new designs which work.Judging by the board's and my own favorites they seem to have hit their peak with Battle Garegga and Batrider, then slid a little or a lot. While you will see about equal support for Strikers II to Dragon Blaze.
They did that though. They have their main line of mostly vertical games (including Sengoku Blade and excluding Space Bomber), something that could be counted on. Then the experimental games (Sol Divide, more score-centric games, arena/multi-direction shooters). I think that is as good of a strategy as any.louisg wrote: Yeah, but there is also something to be said for trying new things. The fact that when we're citing what's improved in Psikyo games we're looking at a decade span says a lot. If they had experimented more, sure there'd be more of a risk of having some lemons in the lineup, but the games might have also been further refined past where they were when they stopped in addition to having more diversity overall.
I'm not sure what you mean by jumpy. I'm only moderately skilled at Psikyo games and the only thing it really does is add some variety. The difficulty increases smoothly no matter the order. You just have to know the basics of the stage and see it once or twice at its hardest.But, I guess I disagree that random opening stages were a good idea. I think it leads to a jumpy difficulty curve.
Like I give a crap about what "the board" deems popular.Rob wrote:In my opinion Psikyo's changes were always for the better. Can that be said for games like Battle Bakraid and Ibara (if you want to include that)? Judging by the board's and my own favorites they seem to have hit their peak with Battle Garegga and Batrider, then slid a little or a lot. While you will see about equal support for Strikers II to Dragon Blaze.
Everyone here is a Cave fan anyway, whether they like it or not.Arvandor wrote:It means that everyone is a CAVE fan. It's just not everyone knows it yet. Haven't quite consigned themselves to innevitability.
Only the real, 100% honest-to-God Raizing fans (the 1 in 10) will say Batrider = Bakraid, because like the Psikyo fans that are posting the lengthy essays in this thread, the 100% Raizing fans enjoy all the Raizing games for their own merits, and view them equally.BulletMagnet wrote:What's that supposed to mean?Icarus wrote:9 out of 10 of the so-called Raizing fans here aren't real Raizing "fans".
Why do I picture you curled up in a corner of a dark room, sweating profusely, wringing your hands and struggling to breathe when you say this?Icarus wrote:Everyone here is a Cave fan anyway, whether they like it or not.
It's like Click-stick's forum, only bigger.
Perhaps I'm taking you too literally here, but methinks anyone who views all games a company's made completely equally, and perhaps only (or at least largely) because they were made by that company, has crossed the border from fandom to irrational obsession. Yes, judging individual games by their individual merits is without a doubt the way to go, but just because you do this doesn't mean that you'll inevitably end up liking everything. The fact remains that some games, even by the same company, simply aren't equally proficient in all areas, or simply proficient, period. You make it sound like if you don't like every single game Raizing has done, you must be missing something. Imagine how it'd sound to your ears if someone made a similar statement on Cave. Having tastes which give you a split opinion about a company's work doesn't make you an "inferior" fan of theirs...and a negative opinion doesn't make you a hater (or an automatic fan of some other company) by default.Only the real, 100% honest-to-God Raizing fans (the 1 in 10) will say Batrider = Bakraid, because like the Psikyo fans that are posting the lengthy essays in this thread, the 100% Raizing fans enjoy all the Raizing games for their own merits, and view them equally.
Sorry, but on this point in particular I have to digress - whatever Bakraid's flaws are, and different people will say different things, it's almost beyond argument that Bakraid's bullet visibility is a steep improvement over Batrider's.and bullets are a pain in the ass to see sometimes.
I'm only struggling to breathe as I haven't had a cigarette for a week. ;PBulletMagnet wrote:Why do I picture you curled up in a corner of a dark room, sweating profusely, wringing your hands and struggling to breathe when you say this?
You know me well.BulletMagnet wrote:...irrational obsession.
Even still, I can accept all of the faults that come with their games, because I enjoy playing them. I can accept invisible bullets in Garegga and Batrider; the pretty retarded racing system in Shippu Mahou; that fucking huge hitbox in Mahou; anal-retentive item collecting in Great Mahou; medal juggling, suicides, bombing when I shouldn't, poorly-balanced ship selections, crap weapons, rank systems, the frustration that comes with losing that last life in the most ridiculously retarded and totally avoidable way ever, simply because I enjoy it.BulletMagnet wrote:The fact remains that some games, even by the same company, simply aren't equally proficient in all areas, or simply proficient, period.
Not at all. But when the so-called Raizing fan masses say that Batrider > Bakraid, it find it weird, as I personally find them to be equal in quality. Both are great games, easy to get into, and with quite a lot of depth.BulletMagnet wrote:You make it sound like if you don't like every single game Raizing has done, you must be missing something. Imagine how it'd sound to your ears if someone made a similar statement on Cave.
Depends if you're playing the PCB.BulletMagnet wrote:Sorry, but on this point in particular I have to digress - whatever Bakraid's flaws are, and different people will say different things, it's almost beyond argument that Bakraid's bullet visibility is a steep improvement over Batrider's.
Depends. Take a look at Rob - Psikyo fan. Accepts the games on their benefits and flaws, and even if he slates some of them, I suspect he gets a perverse thrill in playing them occasionally.BulletMagnet wrote:Under your definition it sounds like to be a "true" fan of a company's work you have to like every game a company puts out - once again, if someone was saying something like this about Cave's games, I can only imagine what sort of reaction you would have to it.
I'm not American, so that comment went right over my head.BulletMagnet wrote:Some people in the U.S. like to confront supporters of the current President with what they call "The Clinton Rule" - basically, if someone is brushing off something that Bush has done, they are asked to inquire of themselves whether they would have been as dismissive of said action if Clinton had done the exact same thing. In like manner, I think we should have a "Cave rule" around here...when you make a blanket statement about your favorite shmup developer, would you find it acceptable if someone else said the same thing about Cave? Methinks it's a decent indicator of whether you've still got your feet on the ground.
It sounds to me like you assume that any "true fan" would have the exact same tastes as another "true fan" of a game company. It'd be like me saying "I find it odd that CAVE masses say DDP > ESPgaluda, when I personally find them to be equal in quality." Or something along those lines. Even people who like a specific game developer, often like them for different games or different reasons.Icarus wrote:Not at all. But when the so-called Raizing fan masses say that Batrider > Bakraid, it find it weird, as I personally find them to be equal in quality. Both are great games, easy to get into, and with quite a lot of depth.
No one's faulting you for that - you enjoy what you enjoy. When you suggest, however, that those who don't overlook what you yourself acknowledge as flaws (or at least irritants) as easily as you do simply aren't as "true" as you are, again, a line is crossed.Icarus wrote:medal juggling, suicides, bombing when I shouldn't, poorly-balanced ship selections, crap weapons, rank systems, the frustration that comes with losing that last life in the most ridiculously retarded and totally avoidable way ever, simply because I enjoy it.
The thing is, most people here (I would guess) have tried it (them), and many express a preference for one over the other. And they apparently don't meet your standards of fandom in its purest form.It's like that anti-ingame-suicide campaign that occasionally pops up here from time to time. Don't knock it until you try it.
You hide such sentiments well.As for Cave-bashing, people do enough of it on this forum to fill my quota.
That crosses into the realm of hardware inadequacies, as opposed to design choices. Methinks you can acknowledge the inherent difference.Depends if you're playing the PCB.
Ever seen the bullets FLICKER LIKE A FUCKING STROBELIGHT at the most inoppurtune time?
I guess not.
Guess you'd have to ask him (though I've always seen Rob as a "what you see [or read] is what you get" sort, guess I'd have to ask him too)...the question is, is he a "true" Psikyo fan, with the views he has, or not?Depends. Take a look at Rob - Psikyo fan. Accepts the games on their benefits and flaws, and even if he slates some of them, I suspect he gets a perverse thrill in playing them occasionally.
In case it's not obvious already, I'm not "trolling" anyone, or any particular developer - I'm criticizing the mindset of "you can't be a true fan unless you're willing to completely overlook glaring deficiencies in every one of a company's games (and routinely criticize those who refuse to do so)." I've called at least one Cave fan on similar pretentions - and didn't get a reaction half as...spirited as any I've gotten from any Raizing fan on here.Methinks you just like replying to Raizing people as you're used to it. I think you secretly get a kick out of trolling, don't you? Do you enjoy antagonising Raizing people, BM?
It's nothing too in-depth...just a variation on "would you let the guy you hate get away with the same stuff you let the guy you like get away with?"I'm not American, so that comment went right over my head.
In my experience, the only people who make such topics about Cave are people who have just gotten into shmups/joined the forum...the community (or, rather, a certain portion of it) tends to straighten them out fast.Also, people wax lyrical about Cave all the time here. They have been doing it a lot more often this summer though.
Ironic, no?Let them get on with it I say, it's not like the forum hasn't seen enough topics about how DDP > * already. I'd rather be playing RFJ.
Life is too short to argue over X being better than Y in something as stupid as a hobby. I'd rather sample and enjoy all I can before the inevitable happens and I get bored of gaming completely (and the way things are going right now vis-a-vis career etc, that's quite likely to happen).Arvandor wrote:It sounds to me like you assume that any "true fan" would have the exact same tastes as another "true fan" of a game company. It'd be like me saying "I find it odd that CAVE masses say DDP > ESPgaluda, when I personally find them to be equal in quality." Or something along those lines. Even people who like a specific game developer, often like them for different games or different reasons.
Heck, even going broader. It'd be like saying "How can you like Raizing over Psikyo? They've both got amazing contributions to the genre." Yet here we find all kinds of loyalists. I don't find it odd at all that some Raizing fans would prefer Batrider, some Bakraid, and some (like yourself) neither one over the other.
No, not really.BulletMagnet wrote:Ironic, no?
Tried it, don't like it, WILL knock it. Though, I am becomming fonder of Battle Garegga as time goes on. I don't dislike it as much as I did at first, and my BIGGEST complaint with Garegga isn't the suiciding so much as the fact that survival is tied in so closely to score. The need to suicide is the effect, not the cause, persay.Icarus wrote:It's like that anti-ingame-suicide campaign that occasionally pops up here from time to time. Don't knock it until you try it.
That's the main draw. Unless you play all Raizing purely for score, they won't have any real merits outside of graphics, sound etc.Arvandor wrote:Tried it, don't like it, WILL knock it. Though, I am becomming fonder of Battle Garegga as time goes on. I don't dislike it as much as I did at first, and my BIGGEST complaint with Garegga isn't the suiciding so much as the fact that survival is tied in so closely to score. The need to suicide is the effect, not the cause, persay.
One of my initial draws to ESPgaluda was that I could hoard green gems and save them for difficult boss patterns (yeah, i was noob, sue me), telling score to go take a hike. Then as I got better and didn't need to hoard the gems, I started trying to improve my score. The problem with Raizing games (for me) is that my preferred approach to a game (survival, then score) is more or less force-reversed. In fact, if I had gone into Garegga not knowing how badly I was sucking (without any prior knowledge of the ranking system), I probably would have loved it to death. Battle Garegga is intimidating is what it is. Some people can't work past that, and I don't entirely blame them.
This thread was a thinly veiled attack against anti-Psikyo sentiment.Arvandor wrote:... Wasn't this topic originally about how Psikyo sucks because Tengai is a horizontal Gunbird 2 or some nonsense like that? We sure have strayed from that, eh? Plus I disagree ^_^ I really like the few Psikyo games I've played, despite obvious similarities.
Still makes me wonder how Gunbird 3 PCB would've turned out if Psikyo made that instead of Dragon Blaze PCB...professor ganson wrote:Upgraded my MAME set up so I was able to play Srikers 1945 III for the first time today.
I have to confess, in spite of my arguments above, I did find this a bit too same-y. So far I haven't seen enough new to justify this third installment.
Still, it was way fun to play!
Yeah man, it was comical to see Psikyo recycle their signature stylized bullets in their arcade games (and the same thing with the cool stylized Psikyo power-up icons as well)...couldn't mistake them for another company's shmup game bullets, that's for sure... ^_~Fighter17 wrote:I prefer the fast bullet patterns in Psikyo's shooters than a screen full of bullets that move slow like in Cave's shooters.
Also Psikyo's shooters are easier to learn and thus they are playable from the get-go.
I was showing different shmups to my friends (varous Cave, Raizing, Psikyo, etc.) and all of them prefer Psikyo shooters. Short Stages, fast moving bullets, and easy to learn gameplay. That's why they were more Psikyo machines in the arcades back in the day than Raizing, Cave combine (in the US at least). All my friends were turned off with the bullet-hell in Cave shooters and for Raizing, the gameplay system is a little too hard.
True that Samurai Aces and Gunbird were just Aero Fighters with a charged attack, but they are still good shooters. Strikers 1945 started to break away from the Aero Fighters system (scoring system, when you're fully level-up you don't go down a level after certain periods of time). Strikers 1945 II took the system a little further. Then you got different idea shooters like Pilots Kids what had a crazy scoring system in there (and not many people play it, you can play it by the Sega Model 2 emulator). Space Bomber, Gunbird 2, Strikers 1999, and Dragon Blaze were different systems indeed.
I just about like all of Psikyo shmups, but my god seeing the same bullet sprites made me laugh all the time.
P.S.: The music does suck, but remember these were arcade games and you can't hear shit in the arcades at all.
Frogacuda wrote:This isn't true at all. DB is classic Psikyo formula, and very similar to Strikers 1999.
